I'm inclined to believe Viv, especially since she said those people died at a mages hands and we saw fires started in the aftermath of that blast.
Then it wasn't Ander's fault. It was the architects. They should have designed the buildings to be more fire-proof.
Is education and training not needed then? Only to have them confined somewhere?
If they have received the proper education and training then why is there still a need to lock them up?
@Sifr: Watch the event again... because I've had this argument with dozens of people on here.
The streets of Kirwall are on fire all over the city... the blast threw massive chunks of stone over the entire city. You see this in the cutscene plain as day.
@Jaison1986: And what makes the mages more reasonable? This is the entire problem with mages. They're born with extraordinary gifts... but their minds are all too ordinary.
I don't find Jowan, Zathrian, Uldred, Connor or a laundry list of others "reasonable".
Everyone, EVERYONE, has bad things happen to them... but when it happens to mages... hundreds suffer for it. That is not reasonable.
That being said - if you've read any of my other posts - you know I don't support the Templars or the former state of the Towers.
Wrong, the issue is not with mages. It's magic. Men are flawed and can make mistakes, any one with power can cause havoc if they use it the wrong way. True it has to be controlled but it not the total fault of the mages in large that this happen. We have to understand what we are dealing with t control it, not lock it up.
People are afraid of a man who used a giant beam of light to blow up a church.
People are afraid of a man who walked up to their religious leader and tried to kill her.
People are afraid because they're turned into Werewolves by a psycho elf with a vendetta.
People are afraid because their wives, mothers, daughters were being killed and turned into a Frankenstein's monster.
People are afraid because in the heat of danger the First Enchanter of their city turned into a giant mass of bodies.
People are afraid because the apostate mage maleficar couldn't teach the boy mage enough and their town was ransacked by undead.
Let's not pretend for one second that there's not a reason to be afraid of mages.
People are afraid because escape apostates are dangerous! Like Malcolm Hawke, who ran away from the Circle to get married and raise three children and spent the next twenty years doing nothing more than enjoying a quiet life as a farmer and merchant until the day he died...
A Maleficar so determined to harm others, he only ever used Blood Magic after being forced to do so because of the Grey Wardens, in order to reinforce a buttload of seals on an ancient prison and keep a bunch of demons and a ridiculously powerful Darkspawn locked away for a couple more decades, preventing a new wave of terror being unleashed on Thedas...
Truly, people like Malcolm Hawke are the reason mages should be feared.
Obviously the solution for mages to get freedom is to set up arrange marriages between mages and templars.
@JSlither: I agree with her. I agree with her even though my personal headcanon is a Circle mage who chose to head to the tower because his mind was haunted by demons and he had already endangered those around him unknowingly.
You'll likely say: "You wouldn't think that way if you were really there." But you don't know me and you don't know that.
I would intern myself in a Circle because I believe that the "prison" I was in was there for a reason. Because I care about the people of Thedas, because I believe my gift comes with a very terrible burden, because I believe that the first path to possession is believing you're free from possession.
I would study magic, I would offer my use of magic up whenever possible and likely gain freedoms my cohorts would hate me for. I would study healing and anti-magic. I would consider myself an "Exorcist" and write a dissertation beseeching the First Enchanter to help me speak with the Divine about the ability to fight demons by entering the Fade and the development of a group of such mage demon hunters who try to liberate mages and commoners alike through the Fade by battling demons.
I would devote my life to this and I would be supremely pissed at what I consider an army of lunatics throwing a tantrum and dragging me into the war. I would oppose the rebellion every step I got and leave it the first chance I could (possibly seeking out mages like Vivienne to join up with).
As it is - the events on the mountain "solved" the issue for my character.
"Locked up" may not be necessary - but under constant supervisions - each and every mage. Yes, that is necessary.
Your character here is being mentally tormented by demons? He also considers himself a threat to others because of this? Very understandable as to why he would desire being locked away. Like a man who has become a werewolf and fears losing control on the next full moon.
What if this character was perfectly fine mentally. No demons on the brain. Just a regular guy that has interesting dreams and also just happens to be able to move things with his mind. Would he seek a teacher outside of the Circle or would he willingly go to prison?
How would your "constant supervision" work exactly? Is every mage in Thedas assigned a Templar at birth or what?
@JSlither: There are no mages that are mentally fine... Dragon Age has been so painfully clear about this and has had to make it even more and more ludicrous to get it across to people. I hear Last Flight in particular goes into this.. and thankfully so.
Demons are ALWAYS trying to possess mages. It's stated so plainly in the Mage Origin... in the Fade... by the Pride demon who informs you he'll be haunting you forever because "True tests never end".
That the special snowflake PC is never taken from the player and possessed - means nothing.
There's no such thing as a Dragon Age mage who never is haunted by demons... just mages who resist.
It's easy for people to support a system that they personally benefit from, even if that same system causes other people misery. I keep hearing she had a high position within the Circle and was ambitious about getting the highest position possible, so of course she's okay with it.
This is a good example as to why bringing the concept privilege into a debate is often a bad idea. For one thing it is an assumption, Vivienne could have had it just as bad as the Kirkwall mages at one point but managed to work her way out of that situation somehow. Most importantly though it doesn't address any of her points, it's simply a possible (but not necessarily correct) reason as to why she might have that view. Wynne shared a similar view and she had most certainly suffered in the circle.
I guess she expects that all mages should be okay with being torn from their families, locked in stone prisons, live their whole lives constantly monitored by Templars, and constantly having to undergo the abuses, torture, killings, Tranquility, fatal Harrowings, etc. (that inevitably occur when some people have absolute power over others) just because SHE enjoys the perks of the Circle system.
That's how I see it.
We don't know how she feels about any of this, she didn't support the Templars in the Hinterlands so I feel her view is probably more complicated than that.
Vivienne is in a unique position to fight for rights. Rights is the only currency that matters. Starting a rebellion with hardly any long term goal other than "we want to be free" is selfish, dangerous and downright idiotic.
The reasoning that a mage can't enter society because he can set a barn on fire by just thinking very hard, or kill someone with his mind is flawed. Throw a match into the barn and you get same results. Stab someone in the neck with a concealed blade same thing. It's the intention and the action that matters, not the method. People are afraid of that which they don't understand. Becoming familiar with mages and what they can or can't do is a huge step to accept them.
and after a thousand years of being locked up with people being raped and murdered and having no control over their own lives where were these changes coming from?
nobody does what they want, they do what you let them. the entire point of the conference was that a large number of magi saw no point in pushing for reforms that never come.
they were at break point, to them they would never get any reforms or rights ever. to them they had no choice their only option was to rebel.
Plus considering that the buildings of Kirkwall are centuries old the shockwave from the blast could've probably caused multiple building collapses and or cave ins in Darktown.I'm inclined to believe Viv, especially since she said those people died at a mages hands and we saw fires started in the aftermath of that blast.
Wynne shared a similar view and she had most certainly suffered in the circle.
Brainwashing. They spin the hypno wheel, and it begins there.
I'm inclined to believe Viv, especially since she said those people died at a mages hands and we saw fires started in the aftermath of that blast.
@Sifr: Watch the event again... because I've had this argument with dozens of people on here.
The streets of Kirwall are on fire all over the city... the blast threw massive chunks of stone over the entire city. You see this in the cutscene plain as day.
There are a ton of foundries in Lowtown, where we see the fires flame up. Of course a huge airburst is going to fan a ton of flames everywhere?
And you're missing the point, the chucks of stone are thrown over the city, not onto the city. The explosion happened at the Hightown Chantry, one of the highest points in Kirkwall, while the actual point of detonation happened in the sky above it.
The debris should surely have been cast clear of the majority of the city? Sure, some must have landed in Lowtown, but the way that Kirkwall is built into the harbour makes that a very narrow corridor for the debris to fall on, compared to the rest of the 360 degrees it was hurled?
you miss the point entirely their end goal is freedom, that's it. rebellions don't start by people having any idea what to do with it afterwards, by leaving the circle they achieved their goal they were free. until the templars went rogue.
people forget the Magi didn't start the war, they simply left the circles. the Templars are the ones who went rogue to murder them all and the Magi have been defending themselves ever since.
Then it's a short-sighted end goal indeed. Freedom is great and nobody can be against virtue, but in practice mages aren't ordinary people and will never get treated like so, not even in Tevinter. You simply cannot go from the Circles to total, unrestricted freedom. That's a completely stupid utopia. And yes, successfull rebellions are done by people who have an idea of what the hell they are doing, unless you like stuff like the Terror in revolutionary France, or, well, the indiscriminate shitstorm that has fallen on Thedas since the rebellion began.
Magi didn't start the war, but Anders did the blast, the Resolutionist were already gearing up for it, and I'm also pretty sure mages didn't just stroll out of the circles on a sunny afternoon, the Templar guardians surely resisted as was their duty. They're not exactly poor defenseless victims in this affair.
There are a ton of foundries in Lowtown, where we see the fires flame up. Of course a huge airburst is going to fan a ton of flames everywhere?
And you're missing the point, the chucks of stone are thrown over the city, not onto the city. The explosion happened at the Hightown Chantry, one of the highest points in Kirkwall, while the actual point of detonation happened in the sky above it.
The debris should surely have been cast clear of the majority of the city? Sure, some must have landed in Lowtown, but the way that Kirkwall is built into the harbour makes that a very narrow corridor for the debris to fall on, compared to the rest of the 360 degrees it was hurled?
You may be analyzing a cutscene where the purpose was to look cool a bit too much.....and again, explosions as far as I know tend to send out shock waves or whatever as well, and it was a big explosion.
I wonder why posters are more empathic to a dangerous group that enjoys the freedom of fair education, food, warm bed and health. Oh, yes, it's because they're contained and many are under the heels of abuse. They don't deserve abuse, indeed.
But it's funny how casteless dwarves suffer more abuse than mages, yet you don't see people claiming for their justice. No one adopts them as their pet cause. Weird.
kind of off topic but I thought you could get rid of the cast system in origins. or is it still a thing even if you do?
Were the mages so stupid as to think just walking out of their Circles en mass wouldn't cause a conflict?
Ignorance is not protection from culpability.
kind of off topic but I thought you could get rid of the cast system in origins. or is it still a thing even if you do?
Its an epilogue, so the validity is debatable. They're also simply put more to use by Bhelen as more cannon fodder to use against the darkspawn anyway, so they're gonna end up in pretty crappy conditions there too.
Regardless of how the Mage/Templar conflict plays out, all I want to see in particular are two things:
The option for a peaceful resolution a la the Quarian/Geth conflict in ME3,
And the opportunity to put Adrian's head on a spike. I loathe her so very, very much.
No there are some rights and wrongs and you certainly were making counter arguments to Vivienne's claims and therefore insinuating that they were incorrect or misguided. I also contest this "voice of the rebals" thing you've got going.
Please quote for me the part where she says that because I fail to see where she made these arguments.
The rebel leadership maybe but no most circle mages are not clones of Anders with exactly the same views as Anders. That was pretty much the point she was making, the rebel leaders care nothing for the circle mages, they only care about freedom as you say.
Make counter points from the side of the rebels if you cant acknowledgethat they would view things different thats not much point in debate is their? but i digress its their perspective Just a Vivenne has her's.
Neither is right nor wrong. they are simply sides. the winners will in the end be declared right but it doesn't make it so.
she doesn't say it directly but i suspect you know this.
I emphatically reject your last argument, the Magi sat down and all factions met the majority favoured leaving.
This is a good example as to why bringing the concept privilege into a debate is often a bad idea. For one thing it is an assumption, Vivienne could have had it just as bad as the Kirkwall mages at one point but managed to work her way out of that situation somehow. Most importantly though it doesn't address any of her points, it's simply a possible (but not necessarily correct) reason as to why she might have that view. Wynne shared a similar view and she had most certainly suffered in the circle.
We don't know how she feels about any of this, she didn't support the Templars in the Hinterlands so I feel her view is probably more complicated than that.
Her character bio outright says she is ambitious and supports the current system because it benefits her. She was meant to be a First Enchanter which was ruined when the mages rebelled. Why else is she called "The Ambition"
@Jazzpha: I so hope we meet her in Inquisition. I'll sit her in a glyph of neutralization and make her my jester.
Were the mages so stupid as to think just walking out of their Circles en mass wouldn't cause a conflict?
Ignorance is not protection from culpability.
If you read asunder's you would know that not what happen. Remember, they left for a reason.
Its an epilogue, so the validity is debatable. They're also simply put more to use by Bhelen as more cannon fodder to use against the darkspawn anyway, so they're gonna end up in pretty crappy conditions there too.
aww I was so happy I got rid of that :C
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