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[Treacherous J Slither]

People are afraid of a man who used a giant beam of light to blow up a church.

 

People are afraid of a man who walked up to their religious leader and tried to kill her.

 

People are afraid because they're turned into Werewolves by a psycho elf with a vendetta.

 

People are afraid because their wives, mothers, daughters were being killed and turned into a Frankenstein's monster.

 

People are afraid because in the heat of danger the First Enchanter of their city turned into a giant mass of bodies.

 

People are afraid because the apostate mage maleficar couldn't teach the boy mage enough and their town was ransacked by undead.

 

Let's not pretend for one second that there's not a reason to be afraid of mages.

 

It's fine to fear the power of someone powerful. But to lock them up or to kill them because you are afraid of what they might do is wrong. We all have the potential for harm. Not on the same level of mages but enough to be somewhat wary of one another in certain situations and to also take comfort in the fact that we have such an effective law enforcement system.

 

The Templars can be such a system in Thedas. The people (mages+mundanes) can take comfort in the protection of a Templar force that acts in many ways like a police force. Patrols, investigations etc. They have mages in their ranks so it isn't a "us vs them" thing. Everyone working together for the protection of everyone.

 

Treating mages badly no matter how justified someone may feel about it, will always cause more conflict. It's best to attempt to avoid conflict by trying to find a way to please both parties and getting them to work together.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Then it's a short-sighted end goal indeed. Freedom is great and nobody can be against virtue, but in practice mages aren't ordinary people and will never get treated like so, not even in Tevinter. You simply cannot go from the Circles to total, unrestricted freedom. That's a completely stupid utopia. And yes, successfull rebellions are done by people who have an idea of what the hell they are doing, unless you like stuff like the Terror in revolutionary France, or, well, the indiscriminate shitstorm that has fallen on Thedas since the rebellion began.

 

Magi didn't start the war, but Anders did the blast, the Resolutionist were already gearing up for it, and I'm also pretty sure mages didn't just stroll out of the circles on a sunny afternoon, the Templar guardians surely resisted as was their duty. They're not exactly poor defenseless victims in this affair.

 

even the american revolution which was the most far sighted rebellion in history took something like 14 years after they'd won to sort out all their ****.

 

revolutions are messy, not even the communist revolutions had any idea what their countries would look like or how they would be run. as seen by how long it took get their **** together afterwards.

 

all they any rebellion has is a fuzzy utopia ideals this is what we'll get this.

 

Magi have been victims for 1000 years, that's the entire point. just by being in the towers they were victims, their declaration was they were going to be victims any more. they were taking charge and securing their own freedoms.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@JSlither:  There are no mages that are mentally fine... Dragon Age has been so painfully clear about this and has had to make it even more and more ludicrous to get it across to people.  I hear Last Flight in particular goes into this.. and thankfully so.

 

Demons are ALWAYS trying to possess mages.  It's stated so plainly in the Mage Origin... in the Fade... by the Pride demon who informs you he'll be haunting you forever because "True tests never end".

 

That the special snowflake PC is never taken from the player and possessed - means nothing. 

 

There's no such thing as a Dragon Age mage who never is haunted by demons... just mages who resist. 

 

Nonsense.

 

Every mage on Thedas is not Feynriel. Nowhere is it written that every single mage in the Dragon Age world is tormented by whispering demons.

 

Provide proof. Show me what has led you to this belief.

[Medhia_Nox]

@JSlither:  We're not actually in disagreement there (about your post about mages - not demons)

 

But I won't support this rebellion.  Not only do I think rebellion is the worst choice for change... I think this particular rebellion was so poorly conceived I can't help but think people like Adrian are demons just looking for some laughs.

 

As for my proof - Last Flight I am told states very clearly that all mages hear demons when they use magic and blood mages hear it ten times louder. 

 

I'm probably not going to buy it to provide you with page numbers.

 

The games already supported this idea all the time.  Mages attract demons - and demons are always hungering for the world.  Yes, you're going to read "always" as every waking minute... but always means from the first manifestation of magic to death. 

 

The only mages free from possession are the special snowflake protagonists.

[Hellion Rex]

@JSlither:  We're not actually in disagreement there (about your post about mages - not demons)

 

But I won't support this rebellion.  Not only do I think rebellion is the worst choice for change... I think this particular rebellion was so poorly conceived I can't help but think people like Adrian are demons just looking for some laughs.

I think the rebellion just made the situation worse for anybody, though Lambert certainly didn't make it any easier for them. I feel bad for everyone caught in the middle of the mess, especially those mages who never wanted to fight and yet were slaughtered anyways.

[Sifr]

You may be analyzing a cutscene where the purpose was to look cool a bit too much.....and again, explosions as far as I know tend to send out shock waves or whatever as well, and it was a big explosion.

 

Very true and sure, the explosion may have been far more intense than the cutscene/game engine would allow, but as presented in the game, it simply doesn't seem like it could have caused "hundreds" of deaths in the manner described?

 

And I fear we've gone a tad off-topic with this?

 

Regardless of position on the Mage Rebellion, I'm looking forward to seeing Viv in the game, because I enjoy characters who challenge me on my position or make me start to think or rethink it, even if I end up not necessarily agreeing with them in the end.

 

It's a major reason why the Qunari simply fascinate me, despite the fact I completely disagree with practically everything they do, because learning how and why they think the way they do is fun to figure out?

[mikeymoonshine]

 

she doesn't say it directly but i suspect you know this.

 

I emphatically reject your last argument, the Magi sat down and all factions met the majority favoured leaving.

 

No she doesn't directly say it but you should still be able to provide the part where she is making the argument you are claiming she is, directly or not. 

 

Yes and that means that the majority of the leaders supported separation from the chantry. It does not mean the majority of mages supported that and it most certainly doesn't mean that they are all willing to die for their freedom and care about nothing else. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

Yes, they should be trained and educated. In fact the irony is probably they receive a level of education opportunities superior to even the highest of nobles in all of Thedas, which is great.

I support a circular circle system, where mages live and learn with some semblance of self governance with the Templar acting as both guardians against demons and protectors of the common folk without Chantry influence, which puts all decision making in the hands of the Knight-Commander and the Head Enchanter. I would support less strict 24/7 supervision and far more freedom of movement for senior enchanters who have proven their worth. I would support an environment where mages can learn and live and love without fear or worry, with a Templar order that works with them rather than in attrition againts them.

But enfettered freedom for a group of people, whom are a horrible minority, who can potentially be taken over by demons and decimate a populous made up by a majority of mundanes?

I will never support it.

 

As long as the mages are locked up they will continue to fight back and pursue freedom in various ways. Escape attempts, blood magic, insurrection, rebellion etc. It will never end. 

 

The freedom I suggest for mages is similar to the freedom that we have today. Free to work and live and love but not free to break the law. Templars (mages+mundanes) as police can protect the people from maleficarum, demons, abominations etc.

[Tevinter Soldier]

No she doesn't directly say it but you should still be able to provide the part where she is making the argument you are claiming she is, directly or not. 

 

Yes and that means that the majority of the leaders supported separation from the chantry. It does not mean the majority of mages supported that and it most certainly doesn't mean that they are all willing to die for their freedom and care about nothing else. 

 

leaders who got into those positions by being elected by factions, who obviously need the backing of the majority to get their candidate elected.

 

the leaders didn't represent themselves they represent factions the largest factions had the most leaders and in the end the largest factions voted to rebel.

 

"You, my dear, are far too wise to have not realized that many of our colleagues live with their eyes closed. Safe inside their towers, they only thought of the Templars and their own resentment"

[mikeymoonshine]

Her character bio outright says she is ambitious and supports the current system because it benefits her. She was meant to be a First Enchanter which was ruined when the mages rebelled. Why else is she called "The Ambition"

 

How is that not just another example of the flawed logic I explained in the comment you are responding to? I never said ambition had nothing to do with it, I said speculation on her motives do not disprove or even address her points. She could have other reasons and motivations for all we know and even if it is all because of selfishness and ambition that still doesn't mean she is incorrect. 

[mikeymoonshine]

leaders who got into those positions by being elected by factions, who obviously need the backing of the majority to get their candidate elected.

 

the leaders didn't represent themselves they represent factions the largest factions had the most leaders and in the end the largest factions voted to rebel.

 

"You, my dear, are far too wise to have not realized that many of our colleagues live with their eyes closed. Safe inside their towers, they only thought of the Templars and their own resentment"

 

So lets say a government is elected into office and they go to war with another country a year later. Does that mean the people who voted for them all support the war just because they elected them prior to that decision?

 

Even if the majority did support separation that doesn't mean they supported war or would rather die than go back to the circles like you claimed. 

 

As for the quote. She is saying they were blind to the outside world for only thinking of freedom and not thinking about what was happening at the time. She's not saying they are spoiled children just for wanting their freedom. She's saying the rebellion and the way they rebelled was foolish because they didn't think about the consequences. 

[The Dwarven Smithy]

I really like the perspective of Vivienne, although before I heard her on Twitch today I was already thinking she'd be my least favourite companion. 
Even though DA2 ended up with Hawke choosing between supporting mages and Templars it was so much easier to be sympathetic to the mages.
The main concern was that the Chantry was not stepping in to make reforms as to how Circles ought to not; Grand Cleric Elthina let everyone tear it all apart. If the Chantry was more proactive in listening to the concerns of the mages and helped foster better relationships it wouldn't have come this far. I really hope that in game it doesn't just boil down to helping restore the Circle or giving mages complete autonomy; a Libertarian stance where Templars support - not dominate - mages without the Chantry in power would be a good medium.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@JSlither:  We're not actually in disagreement there (about your post about mages - not demons)

 

But I won't support this rebellion.  Not only do I think rebellion is the worst choice for change... I think this particular rebellion was so poorly conceived I can't help but think people like Adrian are demons just looking for some laughs.

 

As for my proof - Last Flight I am told states very clearly that all mages hear demons when they use magic and blood mages hear it ten times louder. 

 

I'm probably not going to buy it to provide you with page numbers.

 

The games already supported this idea all the time.  Mages attract demons - and demons are always hungering for the world.  Yes, you're going to read "always" as every waking minute... but always means from the first manifestation of magic to death. 

 

The only mages free from possession are the special snowflake protagonists.

 

I support the rebellion simply because if I were in the position of a Circle mage I would escape first chance I got. There's not much that I wouldn't be willing to do to gain that freedom either. Freedom at (almost) any cost.

 

I spared that blood mage in the DAO Circle tower quest. The one that tries to get you to see her side of things. I did. My mage Warden should have ran off with Jowan after being caught but she froze up. If she didn't then she would have learned blood magic from him then went to Denerim to destroy her phylactery. After that, THE WORLD! j/k She'd probably just travel. Escape the Blight etc.

 

Mages may attract demons but I doubt it's to the degree that you think. I've played the same games you have and not once did I get the impression that possession was common or that demons torment mages to such a high degree. From what i've seen the demons usually rely on tricks and guile. Like the one from the Harrowing in the mage origin.

Modifié par JSlither, 21 octobre 2014 - 02:59 .

[Evelle]

She and I are definitely going to get along. I love her stance and completely agree with her

[Medhia_Nox]

@JSlither:  I wouldn't be against you wanting freedom - I'd be against you willing to do "almost" anything to get it. 

 

For myself - there's more than just demons I'd feel obligated to fight against.  I'd be uniquely in a position to fight any maleficar that endangered others... and I would be honored to do so. 

 

Then there's abominations and other spirit possessed things like Sylvans. 

 

And... of course - Darkspawn.  I'd never be a Grey Warden - but I'd fight with them if the time ever presented itself. 

 

We are literally presented with a dozen or more possessions in Dragon Age: Origins (Connor, the little girl in Honnleath, Uldred and his cadre, Sophia) - and hundreds of demons and demon possessed "things". 

 

I would feel guilty living a life of self-indulgence when I was in a unique position to assist in destroying these things.  

 

You serve freedom - I serve duty.  *shrugs*

[ComedicSociopathy]

Yeah, um, I got a few questions about this whole mage rebellion thing that I'd like to get answered. 

 

1. With the Circle no longer part of the Chantry how will the Circle get access to lyrium?

2. With the Templars no longer looking for child mages how exactly is the Circle going to go around and recruit more magi.

3. Will the Circle force child mages to be sent to the towers like the Templars once did, or will they stick to the belief that all mages should be allowed to be free?

4. How will the Circles interact with nations like Orlais, Antiva or Neverra who might want to exploit their powers for military purposes.

5. Want will the Circle do if it turns that since their no longer under the Chantry's protection that the countries that they were inhabiting want them to leave their land?

6. How is the Circle going to deal with mages that want to return to Templar supervision? 

7. How is the Circle going to react to the peasantry who are going to be terrified that mages are longer being supervised by the Templars and can now go anywhere they want?

8. Will the Circle still have customs like the Harrowing and the Rite of Tranquility? If not then how are they going to deal with mages that are susceptible to demonic possession?

9. What will the Circle do if one of their towers becomes infested by demons and abominations? Who will they call to help them in such a situation?

10. What the heck is mage freedom, really. Is it being allowed to leave Circle towers? Is it being able to refuse mage training? Is it being allowed to operate independent of the Templars? Is it the complete abolition of any mage-containment authority like the Templars or the Circle? What is their end goal exactly?

 

These are all questions that from my knowledge haven't been addressed in the DA games or Asunder and I really think they need to be discussed in Inquisition if this debate can ever be truly quelled. We have no idea what an independent Circle of Magi looks like or what it hopes to be down the road.

 

All we've gotten is mages talking about the injustice of being monitored and imprisoned by the Templars (which I agree with) and nothing in regard to the actually social logistics of how the Circle is going to exist with the rest of Thedas.   

[Urazz]

I think Vivienne is right to an extent but she is also wrong.  A lot of mages had good reason to rebel against the templars because a good chunk of the templars were abusing their position and power.  On top of that, the Chantry leadership was too cowardly and unwilling to change things for the better to prevent the rebellion.

 

I think the events of Kirkwall were caused by Meredith's harsh treatment of mages (that was happening even before she got the red lyrium) and Elthina's inaction.  Elthina could have easily restrained Meredith and even had her replaced in Act 3 of DA2 when she was going too far and was showing signs of breaking under the stress of running Kirkwall and the templars.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@JSlither:  I wouldn't be against you wanting freedom - I'd be against you willing to do "almost" anything to get it. 

 

For myself - there's more than just demons I'd feel obligated to fight against.  I'd be uniquely in a position to fight any maleficar that endangered others... and I would be honored to do so. 

 

Then there's abominations and other spirit possessed things like Sylvans. 

 

And... of course - Darkspawn.  I'd never be a Grey Warden - but I'd fight with them if the time ever presented itself. 

 

We are literally presented with a dozen or more possessions in Dragon Age: Origins (Connor, the little girl in Honnleath, Uldred and his cadre, Sophia) - and hundreds of demons and demon possessed "things". 

 

I would feel guilty living a life of self-indulgence when I was in a unique position to assist in destroying these things.  

 

You serve freedom - I serve duty.  *shrugs*

 

Nothing wrong with you being against my ruthless pursuit of freedom. You'll get no argument from me there.

 

Apparently you're far more of the hero type than I am. I'm more of the survivor type.

 

All those enemies we faced in the games had to be mostly gameplay stuff. No way can there be that many bandits roaming the land lol.

[KC_Prototype]

Yeah, she's pro circle so she hates mages who seek freedom...Traitor! But I still love Vivienne.

[mikeymoonshine]

I think Vivienne is right to an extent but she is also wrong.  A lot of mages had good reason to rebel against the templars because a good chunk of the templars were abusing their position and power.  On top of that, the Chantry leadership was too cowardly and unwilling to change things for the better to prevent the rebellion.

 

I think the events of Kirkwall were caused by Meredith's harsh treatment of mages (that was happening even before she got the red lyrium) and Elthina's inaction.  Elthina could have easily restrained Meredith and even had her replaced in Act 3 of DA2 when she was going too far and was showing signs of breaking under the stress of running Kirkwall and the templars.

 

I do agree that Vivienne seems quite unsympathetic and dismissive. Her argument is mostly a pragmatic one but she offered no alternative to the problems in the circle system, I am very interested to know how she would solve the situation. 

 

The problem is that Anders and Orsino messed everything up. Meredith's actions were unjustified until Orsino revealed himself as a blood mage and became an abomination. That for many would justify the annulment. Anders became a terrorist and according to Vivienne reinstilled fear of mages. What he did also means Elthina will probably always be seen as nothing more than a victim, her inaction becomes irrelevant because a crazy mage murdered her. 

 

We also have mages trying to kill the Devine. Mages just don't have a good image, she is totally right about this. 

[leaguer of one]

 

 

We also have mages trying to kill the Devine. Mages just don't have a good image, she is totally right about this. 

Again, it was one mage and that guy was sent by the faction in the chantry that wants to take out the current divine.

[HiroVoid]

Nothing wrong with you being against my ruthless pursuit of freedom. You'll get no argument from me there.

 

Apparently you're far more of the hero type than I am. I'm more of the survivor type.

 

All those enemies we faced in the games had to be mostly gameplay stuff. No way can there be that many bandits roaming the land lol.

Kirkwall also apparently had a pretty bad neighborhood.....everywhere.   Especially at night.

[herkles]

snip

All good questions that I really hope get addressed. 

 

I do agree that Vivienne seems quite unsympathetic and dismissive. Her argument is mostly a pragmatic one but she offered no alternative to the problems in the circle system, I am very interested to know how she would solve the situation. 

 

The problem is that Anders and Orsino messed everything up. Meredith's actions were unjustified until Orsino revealed himself as a blood mage and became an abomination. That for many would justify the annulment. Anders became a terrorist and according to Vivienne reinstilled fear of mages. What he did also means Elthina will probably always be seen as nothing more than a victim, her inaction becomes irrelevant because a crazy mage murdered her. 

 

We also have mages trying to kill the Devine. Mages just don't have a good image, she is totally right about this. 

 

 

the problem with Kirkwall is that it was fucked on all sides. Meredith was insane but so was Orsino. I wouldn't be surprised if Elthinia had some idea about Orsino being a blood mage.  She likely was trying to find a soloution to replace both of them, which would have been the wisest course, but alas anders. Due to him and the mages trying to kill the divine they don't have a great image in the eyes of the common man and woman or even the nobles; but I wonder if the mages even care about them?

 

 

I am a bit curious  why some might wish for the Templar order to be secular. While having mages in the order would be good, I am more curious about why people wish for it to be secular. Keep in mind that Thedas is a medieval inspired world, and as far as it has been shown that it is one of the only groups to have a cross-nation interest; the only other that comes to mind are the Grey Wardens. . If the chantry wasn't in control then likely kings and rulers would want the mages and templars obeying them.  Not to mention the majority of the nations of thedas follow the chantry and the people of those nations are followers of the Chantry to a greater or lesser amount of devotion. So its power and influence isn't going anywhere. 

[leaguer of one]

All good questions that I really hope get addressed. 

 

 

 

the problem with Kirkwall is that it was fucked on all sides. Meredith was insane but so was Orsino. I wouldn't be surprised if Elthinia had some idea about Orsino being a blood mage.  She likely was trying to find a soloution to replace both of them, which would have been the wisest course, but alas anders. Due to him and the mages trying to kill the divine they don't have a great image in the eyes of the common man and woman or even the nobles; but I wonder if the mages even care about them?

 

 

I am a bit curious  why some might wish for the Templar order to be secular. While having mages in the order would be good, I am more curious about why people wish for it to be secular. Keep in mind that Thedas is a medieval inspired world, and as far as it has been shown that it is one of the only groups to have a cross-nation interest; the only other that comes to mind are the Grey Wardens. . If the chantry wasn't in control then likely kings and rulers would want the mages and templars obeying them.  Not to mention the majority of the nations of thedas follow the chantry and the people of those nations are followers of the Chantry to a greater or lesser amount of devotion. So its power and influence isn't going anywhere. 

Orsino was not a blood mage. He was only helping one.