1751 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

I think Vivienne is wrong to dismiss and to trivialize her fellow mages' issues.

 

I rather doubt that Vivienne ever had to deal with what the average mage has to deal with and probably doesn't give a hoot about the average mage's experiences or the suffering that some of them may have gone through. Does she even care about mages who have forcibly been made Tranquil, and does she even give an ounce of consideration about any of the other injustices that can befall mages?

 

I don't think that's she ever had to deal with the realities of being an apostate: fearing for your life, having to live on the run, having to go into hiding, and probably ultimately being forced into joining a Circle if caught (assuming they aren't killed outright or made Tranquil anyway). As for Circle mages, what about being forcibly separated from your child if you have one? What about former apostates forced to join a Circle who have been torn away from their existing families and friends? What about being looked at as a pariah and being ostracized by society at large just because you have even the tiniest bit of magical talent?

 

Vivienne makes it sound like being a gilded bird in a gilded cage is wonderful and that all mages should be grateful for their cages. I think she leads a life atypical of that of the average mage. She has this illusion of freedom because of her position and all the power and privilege that it entails, and she enjoys her cushy life. She really doesn't seem to care about the legitimate concerns and issues that other mages have. I doubt that Vivienne ever experienced anything like actual suffering in her life.

 

While I can definitely agree with Vivienne that some of the mages have been shortsighted and have gone about trying to get their freedom in a less than ideal way, it doesn't mean that wanting their personal liberty is wrong, stupid, or bad. The mages just really haven't done themselves any favors as a whole with all the fighting, etc. - especially not after what Anders did in Kirkwall. But let's not forget that people like Meredith (who was totally psycho) contributed to what happened there and that there is culpability on both sides of the issue.

[AshenEndymion]

It require practice, yes...Of the basics not the practice of the specific spell. If a mage understands the basics they can use any spell.

 

Conjecture... We have no idea how magic works in Thedas, or how mages learn to use magic...

 

That said, if your conclusion were true, it would further validate the idea that Jowan first used blood magic in his escape, having learned it from the books, and having understood the "basics"...  Which would make Orsino as much of a blood mage as Jowan.

[Mercedes-Benz]

I won't recruit her, so I don't care about her opinion(s).

[Lebanese Dude]

I won't recruit her, so I don't care about her opinion(s).

Does she make you want to drive off a cliff?

[Eudaemonium]

I found Vivienne's summation of the situation interesting, but I essentially agree completely with what AtreiyaN7 says: She's essentially living in a position of extreme privilege and likely neither knows nor cares to know what life was like for other, more ordinary mages. That makes her wilfully ignorant and highly dismissive, though she also has a point with regards to how the general populace views magic in the post-Kirkwall era, which is something revolutionaries like Anders didn't pay enough attention to.

 

I will definitely recruit her, because I find her perspective interesting, even if I radically disagree with it.

[sylvanaerie]

Frankly, I'm glad to see a different viewpoint from a mage.  It would be boring if every single character had 'cookie cutter' viewpoints that, frankly, smacks of lazy writing.  Vivienne comes across as a real person with her own ambitions (nothing wrong with ambition) and values and ideas instead of 'copy/paste script here'.  And she's just voicing the same concerns I had after playing DA2, that a lot of mages will act irresponsibly with their freedom.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

No she's not.

 

She's got a point on a few things, but she's dangerously oversimplifying things.

 

These "rebellious teens" were taken from their families and forced into the Circle. They then have to pass a dangerous test where they're thrown into the Fade and essentially kill a demon or have your head cut off if you take too long. The only alternative is being lobotomized. After you pass, you'll be lucky to ever leave the tower and when you do leave, it will only be for Circle Business.

 

Then there's how these "rebellious teens" often suffer unwarranted emotional, mental, physical and sexual abuse by their templar overseers (not all, but enough for it to be a problem) and that they could be tranquilized against their will without consequence. Not to mention that the Chantry teaches common folk that these mages are dangerous powder-kegs that should be shunned even though their military wing is filled with pseudo-magic knights and they're using blood magic to track the mages every move.

 

If Viv was only talking about Anders, I'd absolutely agree. But keep in mind that the Kirkwall Incident (which started the war) was caused by a radical apostate with no involvement from the Circle whatsoever. Keep in mind that Meredith called the Right of Annullment on the Circle for a crime that they did not commit. The fact that the Circle had blood mages within it doesn't change how Meredith was scapegoating the Circle and the Circle fought back by any means necessary. 

 

If anything, Viv currently sounds like a privileged exception who smugly assumed that everyone had the same experiences that she did and looks down on them for not seeing things from her perspective. A perspective that apparently leaves out a lot of facts about the realities of the Circle's failures and how the Chantry tugged and pulled open bleeding wounds. Or how this war was forced upon everyone by idiots without a lick of common sense.

 

THIS.

 

I will be playing as a Mage Lavellan and the first reply I hope I could give her is :- "So all this branding of mages as rebellious teens have nothing to do with the fact that they removed your ability to be First Enchanter, Vivienne ? You call them rebellious teens but using that standard then you are a princess who are angry because she was denied her crown."

 

Vivienne is the equivalent of someone in an oppressive government who because of her relatively high position in that said government, says :- "Well, we are getting all this so its good ! Why complain ? Why argue ? This is all nice & good dammit !"

 

Personally, I am someone who wants the Circle system back although with no Chantry sanctioned Templars behind it. Additionally, I would, if I could, encourage more normal people who are curious and interested in magic, like Dagna, join the reformed Circle to. One thing is for sure though. In this new reformed Circle that I wish to have, Vivienne will not occupy any high positions in it.  I am not fond of or are interested in people who love their gilded shiny cages and chastise others are rebellious teens for not doing so. 

[The Elder King]

I want to address A point that was discussed in The previous pages: The demons constantly whispering/threatening mages.
It is something that was brought up already in the games. Wynne talked about it in a dialoge, that in her sleep she hard both demons and spirits.
Gaider did state a long time ago that the games didn't make justice to The mage PC being threatened by demons, so Last Fligth isn't necessarily wrong with The description of demons threatening mages.
Obviously not everyone will be like Fenyerel Since he's a Dreamer, but mages are threatened by demons more then The games shown The PC to be.

[KoorahUK]

Frankly, I'm glad to see a different viewpoint from a mage.  It would be boring if every single character had 'cookie cutter' viewpoints that, frankly, smacks of lazy writing.  Vivienne comes across as a real person with her own ambitions (nothing wrong with ambition) and values and ideas instead of 'copy/paste script here'.  And she's just voicing the same concerns I had after playing DA2, that a lot of mages will act irresponsibly with their freedom.

Completely agree. After hearing that opinion, all Viv has done has secured her place in my party as mage of choice (for my first, Pro-Chantry playthrough anyway). 

I'm a bit bemused by these accusations that Viv doesn't know what "real mages" have to go through and is used to life of priviledge and power - was she born into power? Was she a noble? I had the impression that she got where she is today through her own hard graft from within the system. The wiki states...

 

She managed to turn her position as enchanter of the Imperial Court, which was regarded as little more than being a glorified court jester, into an advisory position to the Empress despite the official ban prohibiting mages from holding political power.

 

She sounds like she earned her position to me. 

I'm wondering if some folks are just miffed she is disagreeing with their view of mages as the poor oppressed victims in all this, and are now finding reasons to attack her.

 

[sylvanaerie]

Completely agree. After hearing that opinion, all Viv has done has secured her place in my party as mage of choice (for my first, Pro-Chantry playthrough anyway). 

I'm a bit bemused by these accusations that Viv doesn't know what "real mages" have to go through and is used to life of priviledge and power - was she born into power? Was she a noble? I had the impression that she got where she is today through her own hard graft from within the system. The wiki states...

 

She managed to turn her position as enchanter of the Imperial Court, which was regarded as little more than being a glorified court jester, into an advisory position to the Empress despite the official ban prohibiting mages from holding political power.

 

She sounds like she earned her position to me. 

I'm wondering if some folks are just miffed she is disagreeing with their view of mages as the poor oppressed victims in all this, and are now finding reasons to attack her.

 

 
This, I suspect.  She sounds interesting to me.  I don't think my first play will utilize her much since I'll be a Dalish KE Mage, but she may become a staple part of my group on subsequent plays if I like her personality.

[The Elder King]

Personally, I like her, not necessarily because of her dismissive attitude towards rebels, but because she's the one mage in the group that knows the value of the Circle -- and more generally, the value of an education system. Solas might be cool, but he's a loner and hedge mage. Dorian is from an entirely different culture of mages -- one which I'm not sure if even Dorian likes. 
 
I don't want the Circles ended. That's the bottom line for me. Someone needs to pick up the pieces and educate young mages. I'm flexible when it comes to how they are controlled and monitored (mages may very well be able to police themselves), but the Circle must stay in tact.

I'm both curious and concerned to see if The Mages and Templars will declare their goals and what they want to do after The war to the inquisitor.

[Jaison1986]

Frankly, I'm glad to see a different viewpoint from a mage.  It would be boring if every single character had 'cookie cutter' viewpoints that, frankly, smacks of lazy writing.  Vivienne comes across as a real person with her own ambitions (nothing wrong with ambition) and values and ideas instead of 'copy/paste script here'.  And she's just voicing the same concerns I had after playing DA2, that a lot of mages will act irresponsibly with their freedom.

 

I can respect this opinion. I mean, I will likely leaving her gathering dust at Skyhold, but I think it's good writing when an character ignates such strong feelings from the players. It's like Gaider said once, "the worst thing that can happen to an character is for them to be ignored and forgotten. So long as they are either completely hated or loved, it means the writer did an good job, because they left an impression".

[The Elder King]

I can respect this opinion. I mean, I will likely leaving her gathering dust at Skyhold, but I think it's good writing when an character ignates such strong feelings from the players. It's like Gaider said once, "the worst thing that can happen to an character is for them to be ignored and forgotten. So long as they are either completely hated or loved, it means the writer did an good job, because they left an impression".

Agreed.
Also, we have three mages in the Inquisition. It's normal thewriters decided to create characters with different views.

[Medhia_Nox]

Vivienne was the only Circle mage... and she doesn't support the rebellion.  I don't think Dorian or Solas will care at all about it.

[Jazzpha]

Vivienne was the only Circle mage... and she doesn't support the rebellion.  I don't think Dorian or Solas will care at all about it.

 

Agreed. Dorian is outside the system because Tevinter, and Solas doesn't seem to be concerned with much of anything that doesn't relate to the Fade.

[The Elder King]

Vivienne was the only Circle mage... and she doesn't support the rebellion.  I don't think Dorian or Solas will care at all about it.

I doubt they won't have their opinions on where mages should be, or about The Circle system.

[The Elder King]

Agreed. Dorian is outside the system because Tevinter, and Solas doesn't seem to be concerned with much of anything that doesn't relate to the Fade.

Other then The fact that Tevinter still have Circles, that doesn't mean they won't have their opinions on it. Morrigan shared it.

[Medhia_Nox]

@The Elder King:  The Tevinters have a Circle system... and Dorian still loves Tevinter (from what his bio says).  Chances are - given how Tevinter is - he might consider the Circle Mages weak for not being able to put up with a little suffering for knowledge and power. 

 

Solas might understand why mages want freedom - but I think he would consider them foolish (we'll see).  "Sure, rebellion makes sense.  Good luck to them."  That's what I see Solas saying from what we know of it.  Followed by.  "Ohh.. magic stuff.  Let's study it."  

 

I really don't believe any of the three mages are going to be as dreamy eyed about the glorious rebellion as many Pro-Mage players are. 

[The Elder King]

@The Elder King:  The Tevinters have a Circle system... and Dorian still loves Tevinter (from what his bio says).  Chances are - given how Tevinter is - he might consider the Circle Mages weak for not being able to put up with a little suffering for knowledge and power. 
 
Solas might understand why mages want freedom - but I think he would consider them foolish (we'll see).  "Sure, rebellion makes sense.  Good luck to them."  That's what I see Solas saying from what we know of it.  Followed by.  "Ohh.. magic stuff.  Let's study it."  
 
I really don't believe any of the three mages are going to be as dreamy eyed about the glorious rebellion as many Pro-Mage players are.

I disagree on Dorian. I think he'd support the rebellion.
Anyway, my point was that they won't share The same view, regardless of which one they'll have.

[Medhia_Nox]

@The Elder King:  I know this thread is about Vivienne (well, it's not really - it's about Pro-Mages) - but I'd really like to know why you think he'd support the rebellion? 

Do you think he'd support the rebellion of the Tevinter Circles?  If so - why?  

Because I think he'd find it more funny than anything.  He's a Tevinter... his ingrained derision for the Circle mages is probably fairly broad.  The Tevinter know they're far more educated magically... and now that the Circle mages literally just handed all their magical knowledge to the Templars (who are destroying it) - they're going to be even further behind in magical knowledge.  

 

Which is why - if they pulled this in Tevinter - they wouldn't have gotten out of the front doors of their Circles I bet. 

[The Elder King]

@The Elder King:  I know this thread is about Vivienne (well, it's not really - it's about Pro-Mages) - but I'd really like to know why you think he'd support the rebellion? 
Do you think he'd support the rebellion of the Tevinter Circles?  If so - why?  
Because I think he'd find it more funny than anything.  He's a Tevinter... his ingrained derision for the Circle mages is probably fairly broad.  The Tevinter know they're far more educated magically... and now that the Circle mages literally just handed all their magical knowledge to the Templars (who are destroying it) - they're going to be even further behind in magical knowledge.  
 
Which is why - if they pulled this in Tevinter - they wouldn't have gotten out of the front doors of their Circles I bet.

It's more based on the fact he wants to reform his country, and I think he won't like much the abuse of their powers (some) templars did as much as he dislikes the abuse of the powers the Magisters did, and he'd prefer a new solution.
Also, Keep in mind they said he's not the typical Teviter Noble mage.

Another reason Why is because I think the three mages will have those views: Dorian pro-Rebellion, Vivienne anti-Rebellion, Solas in the middle/neutral.

In the end though, I don't care much what Dorian will think, and we don't know enough of him to be sure.

[frankf43]

So Mages should be enslaved, tortured, raped and murdered so that the average sheep can sleep easier in their beds? I think not. Vivian's opinion is one of the major problems with Thedas. Just because she had it easy in her Circle doesn't mean that all Circles were the same.

[Medhia_Nox]

@frankf43:  Interesting story - but that's not at all what she said.  

 

If the mages in story are any reflection of their player supporters - they're going to be demon chow with all the knee-jerk reaction emotion. 

[The Loyal Nub]

I am very new to this series and have been playing through the two previous games. My thoughts on how I will approach this in Inquistion, if possible to have this approach, is that I will likely understand the motivations of both sides. However the genie is out of the bottle and I doubt things can be made to be the same way again. If Viv wants the world back as it was I don't see that that can happen again. I hope the game gives me the lee-way to find another option for mages that satisfies their needs but also protects the rights of the commons from living in fear of them.