@The Loyal Nub: As do I.
I think Vivienne is just sour that her life has been ruined by hypocrites who complained about their lives being ruined. I'd be too if everything I've worked for was taken away by some whiny scrubs - regardless of whether or not their complaints were valid.
I think she knows it can't go back - so I think she'll be looking to make something new. I'll be looking to partner up in that endeavor.
So Mages should be enslaved, tortured, raped and murdered so that the average sheep can sleep easier in their beds? I think not. Vivian's opinion is one of the major problems with Thedas. Just because she had it easy in her Circle doesn't mean that all Circles were the same.
It's fascinating to watch people assume Vive had an easy time in the circle, ignoring what she actually said and taking Anders view of things as gospel.
@Nohvarr: Indeed.
People who hate intolerance - who's first reaction to one line of a character - is intolerance.
Reason #One Million why I'd never back this rebellion.
So Mages should be enslaved, tortured, raped and murdered so that the average sheep can sleep easier in their beds? I think not. Vivian's opinion is one of the major problems with Thedas. Just because she had it easy in her Circle doesn't mean that all Circles were the same.
I'm not sure how people come to this conclusion. We don't know that she had it easy. We don't know that she was in support of the status quo. We don't know that she didn't plan to use her influence to make a positive change from within the system.
We do know that she did not support the decision that the rebel mages made. We know that she seems to think it was folly for them to choose this course of action at such a time. And really, thinking about it, she makes a good point. It's true that they chose the worst possible time to rebel, which is while the entire land fears them greatly.
The rebellion seems impatient. Not that the mages didn't have reason, but my take from Vivienne's perspective is that if they wanted change, it could have been handled much better. Not only for them, but for everyone.
I question why mages would care about the common folk perspective.It certainly put mages more in a bad light from a common folk perspective.
I'm not sure how people come to this conclusion. We don't know that she had it easy. We don't know that she was in support of the status quo. We don't know that she didn't plan to use her influence to make a positive change from within the system.
We do know that she did not support the decision that the rebel mages made. We know that she seems to think it was folly for them to choose this course of action at such a time. And really, thinking about it, she makes a good point. It's true that they chose the worst possible time to rebel, which is while the entire land fears them greatly.
The rebellion seems impatient. Not that the mages didn't have reason, but my take from Vivienne's perspective is that if they wanted change, it could have been handled much better. Not only for them, but for everyone.
To be fair though people will never learn not to fear them whilst their imprisoned within the Circles and the Chantry/Templars perpetuate their views on magic and the Blight.
@Sylvius The Mad: Why shouldn't you care what other people's perspectives are?
It's funny - when it suits mage superiority - suddenly it's "We're better and different."
But as soon as a Templar says it: "Pejudice! Horrible prejudice!"
@Sylvius The Mad: Why shouldn't you care what other people's perspectives are?
It's funny - when it suits mage superiority - suddenly it's "We're better and different."
But as soon as a Templar says it: "Pejudice! Horrible prejudice!"
power fantasies are inherently hypocritical.
I question why mages would care about the common folk perspective.
I look forward to arguing with Vivienne.
Because until the population accepts them (to a degree anyway), the only option open to mages will always be either a Circle (if they are under control) or a mageocracy like Tevinter (if the mages dominate the society). There can be no real middle ground if they don't take the opinion of mundanes into account.
I don't think there is a tenable middle ground. Mages are demonstrably übermenschen.Because until the population accepts them (to a degree anyway), the only option open to mages will always be either a Circle (if they are under control) or a mageocracy like Tevinter (if the mages dominate the society). There can be no real middle ground if they don't take the opinion of mundanes into account.
@Sylvius The Mad: There's is nothing mentally or physically superior about a mage on Thedas.
The fact that mages aren't mentally smarter or wiser than the average rat catcher is THE problem on Thedas.
So Mages should be enslaved, tortured, raped and murdered so that the average sheep can sleep easier in their beds? I think not. Vivian's opinion is one of the major problems with Thedas. Just because she had it easy in her Circle doesn't mean that all Circles were the same.
Seriously, I don't know where you people are getting this crap. Why would you think she had it any easier than any other mage? Her bio says nothing about her sitting around getting life handed to her on a silver platter. She worked hard for what position she had and her life's work has been snatched out from under her feet. Considering how pissed I'd be in such a situation, I think her views are pretty well justified.
She has a strong mind, definite opinions (that won't mesh well with my Dalish mage) and a more 'moderate' view on the rebellion. I don't blame her for seeing them as irresponsible children since that's what most of them are being.
Is there some self serving in that viewpoint? Probably more than a little, she is after all known as "The Ambition", but that's not necessarily a bad thing and I welcome opposing viewpoints in companions. Makes each one more unique and realistic to me. Bioware writers are masters at this kind of writing. Love them, hate them, their characters are unforgettable.
@The Elder King: I know this thread is about Vivienne (well, it's not really - it's about Pro-Mages) - but I'd really like to know why you think he'd support the rebellion?
Do you think he'd support the rebellion of the Tevinter Circles? If so - why?
Because I think he'd find it more funny than anything. He's a Tevinter... his ingrained derision for the Circle mages is probably fairly broad. The Tevinter know they're far more educated magically... and now that the Circle mages literally just handed all their magical knowledge to the Templars (who are destroying it) - they're going to be even further behind in magical knowledge.
Which is why - if they pulled this in Tevinter - they wouldn't have gotten out of the front doors of their Circles I bet.
Actually it was about Viv, and the biting commentary she(i hope always) provides, but than....well Xil happened. and all of this glorious derailment followed 
I question why mages would care about the common folk perspective.
I look forward to arguing with Vivienne.
Oh a little thing called self preservation perhaps? Why would people accused of being witches care what the people of Salem think?
I don't think there is a tenable middle ground. Mages are demonstrably übermenschen.
Not so much. If I remember correctly, mages have different level of ability and power. Powerful mages could be seen as übermenschen, but the same applies to the highly skilled Templars and their powers. Mages with weak magical abilities, on the other hand, are not much different from the mundaines, with the exception that they're more desirable to demons, and possession would/could turn them into übermensch, but, as we've seen, this is the case with mundanes as well - damn, its even the case with trees, since sylvans are trees possessed by spirits. So at most we could say that mages have a higher chance of being/becoming übermenschen.
Plus, if the mages were truly absolute übermenschen I doubt they would've stayed under the Chantry's rules for this long.
Also, I apologize beforehand, but I just have to: we're using the term "übermensch" incorrectly here. To Nietszche, the term was more existential and intellectual than biological or physical in nature: he used it to refer to the people who'd accepted Zarathustra's phrase "God is dead" and who had abandonned the traditional notion of humanity and judeo-christian morality. It's more about going against predescribed societal "truths" (particularly organized religion and its dogma) than about being physically superior, which is how the term is usually (mis)used. If anything, the concept of übermensch is about self-realization, perseverance and independent tought. So if anything, the Circle mages in particular are an antithesis of übermenschen since they stick to a (religious) dogma and authority (and a set of societal rules) and don't think for themselves or try to exted their abilities or thoughts beyond "what is allowed" - so technically they're Nietszche's opposite of übermenschen - "the last men".
Again, I'm sorry. The misuse of this particular term is like my Number One philosophical pet peeve of all times.
lmao at Vivienne had it easy.
She started out in a fluff position and gained the ear of the damn empress.
That sounds like the exact opposite to me.
lmao at Vivienne had it easy.
She started out in a fluff position and gained the ear of the damn empress.
That sounds like the exact opposite to me.
Watch as it turns out she didn't have it easy and worked her way to the top
@AresKeith: It wouldn't matter... it'll just be twisted into: "She got in bed with the enemy and betrayed 'her people'."
really though, the mages should care about the commoners because they're their only hope. mages cant hunt/fish/farm for themselves, and even if some could, how on earth are they going to support their entire population? how will they replenish their numbers if the common person knows that their mage child will either be murdered on the spot by templars or raised to be a fireball slinging bandit that will one day inflict suffering on the same villages they came from? how will the mages ever be anything more than a group of dalish like refugees if their actions have and will cause the general public to cry out to their leaders to deal with them. they either need to find a protector (inquisition) or eventually through attrition (Via templars bandits slavers secular forces and the environments) they'll eventually cull themselves. mocking the rebellion for being short-sighted and ignorant is not only extremely accurate and no reason to hate the character, its the only reasonable thing to do in that scenario.
Never apologize for that. That was awesome.Also, I apologize beforehand, but I just have to: we're using the term "übermensch" incorrectly here. To Nietszche, the term was more existential and intellectual than biological or physical in nature: he used it to refer to the people who'd accepted Zarathustra's phrase "God is dead" and who had abandonned the traditional notion of humanity and judeo-christian morality. It's more about going against predescribed societal "truths" (particularly organized religion and its dogma) than about being physically superior, which is how the term is usually (mis)used. If anything, the concept of übermensch is about self-realization, perseverance and independent tought. So if anything, the Circle mages in particular are an antithesis of übermenschen since they stick to a (religious) dogma and authority (and a set of societal rules) and don't think for themselves or try to exted their abilities or thoughts beyond "what is allowed" - so technically they're Nietszche's opposite of übermenschen - "the last men".
Never apologize for that. That was awesome.
if theres one thing people on these forums like its little info-bits like that.
just dont you mock their Waifu or their chosen self-insert lol
If the witches could destroy the residents with their minds, that's a good question.Oh a little thing called self preservation perhaps? Why would people accused of being witches care what the people of Salem think?
If the witches could destroy the residents with their minds, that's a good question.
sylvius, we all get where you're coming from, but its made abundantly apparent that even mundane warriors are still a threat to mages, for a number of reasons.
Why not?really though, the mages should care about the commoners because they're their only hope. mages cant hunt/fish/farm for themselves
The same way the mundanes do, but with the added advantage of magic.and even if some could, how on earth are they going to support their entire population?
I'm assuming the mundanes will have been either eliminated or subjugated.how will they replenish their numbers if the common person knows that their mage child will either be murdered on the spot by templars or raised to be a fireball slinging bandit that will one day inflict suffering on the same villages they came from? how will the mages ever be anything more than a group of dalish like refugees if their actions have and will cause the general public to cry out to their leaders to deal with them. they either need to find a protector (inquisition) or eventually through attrition (Via templars bandits slavers secular forces and the environments) they'll eventually cull themselves.
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