1751 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

Hey, ya'll are all getting lost in the forest for the trees.

 

The biggest part of this whole conversation had nothing at all to do with whether you agree or disagree with Viviene, it revealed a nuanced educated opinion on the mage/templar issue that wasn't "Me templar me crazy abuser who kill mages."  or "Me mage I rebell against my oppressors regardless of any other consideration and am just one bad word away from slicing my wrist and frying you all."

 

Seriously, after DA2 I am jumping for joy to see some nuanced perspectives return in DAI.

[john-in-france]

She redeemed herself in my eyes and is now welcome in my party.

 

The real thing she was pointing out is that nobles and commoners have problems with mages, the Chantry bombing made this worse...any mage wandering around is now going to be seen as a threat. Mages in the Hinterlands are described as apostates killing everyone...that is going to have consequences and I'm not talking Templar/Chantry ones. Commoners and nobles can kill mages, and will feel driven to do so, this will become a bloodbath.

 

It is not a choice of gilded prison or freedom, but of living or dying...and the Templar are no longer there to protect you (their original remit).

[Super Drone]

.
I'm assuming the mundanes will have been either eliminated or subjugated.

lol. you realize that's never going to happen, right?  Mages concentrated in a fortress get butchered by enough Templars. Out in the open, or in the wild? Against the combined might of Every-Freaking-One? They're outnumbered a thousand to one assuming you are even only factoring in trained mundane soldiers. Mages aren't uber-l33txxor supermen who do whatever they want when the mean ol' Chantry isn't stopping them. They wear robes and die under a hail of arrows like anyone else. Add to that that it take 10 to 15 years to make a new Mage, and condsiderably less time to make new Templars...

 

If Mages wanted to take over mundane society, they shouldn't have blown up a church and then tore apart the countryside in a war. People will never trust them now. They'll be lucky if the survivors of this insanity can be stuffed back into Circles instead of burned at the stake.

[Osena109]

 ill make no secret I  don't like mages but i fear you pro mage people might have to do a double take once you see the  acts they have committed  And ask you self dos the ends justify the means?

[frankf43]

I'm not sure how people come to this conclusion. We don't know that she had it easy.  We don't know that she was in support of the status quo.  We don't know that she didn't plan to use her influence to make a positive change from within the system. 

 

We do know that she did not support the decision that the rebel mages made.  We know that she seems to think it was folly for them to choose this course of action at such a time.  And really, thinking about it, she makes a good point.  It's true that they chose the worst possible time to rebel, which is while the entire land fears them greatly.  

 

The rebellion seems impatient.  Not that the mages didn't have reason, but my take from Vivienne's perspective is that if they wanted change, it could have been handled much better. Not only for them, but for everyone.

 

She said "Yet safe in their towers they thought only of their resentment for the Templars."  She might have been safe in her tower but at other towers whole mage populations were being slaughtered.

 

They chose a time when the Templars had Annulled two circles in quick succession and were now looking at making a further example of the general mage populace because one mage had attempted to kill the Divine Justinia.  You just know that is going to be messy. For a large proportion of the mage population there was not going to be a better time. The way things were going it was now or never. She was either oblivious to the plight of mages outside of her own Circle or just didn't care.

 

  

[StrangeStrategy]

So Mages should be enslaved, tortured, raped and murdered so that the average sheep can sleep easier in their beds? I think not. Vivian's opinion is one of the major problems with Thedas. Just because she had it easy in her Circle doesn't mean that all Circles were the same.

 

What? See, this is why I think any "pro-mage" people exist. They have huge misconceptions.

Enslaved: If "enslaved" means you get to relax in a gigantic tower, never worry about finding food or shelter, have access to education, you're surrounded by people like you, and never have to work a day in their lives then I'd love to be enslaved. Finn apparently loves it.

 

Tortured: Umm, what? Not even Ser Aldrik tortured mages.

 

Raped: Its implied Ser Aldrik raped mages/tranquil. More than implied, Divine Justinia and even Meredith thought he was crazy.

 

Murdered: "If you cannot think of a better way, do not brand me a tyrant!" - Meredith

Mages love to complain and whine about freedom, totally oblivious to all the luxuries they have. They demand freedom and don't care about the consequences others suffer when a mage goes bad... Nearly every mage we met in DA2 was "bad".

 

Even Anders himself had an easy Circle. Security was lax, "everyone was kissing everyone", even Wynne of all people slept with a Templar. And look what happened because of that... Mages still wanted more and ended up killing everything because a portion of them were selfish... And really, it only takes one bad mage to cause devastation. That's why Templars need to be vigilant.

[wcholcombe]

She said "Yet safe in their towers they thought only of their resentment for the Templars."  She might have been safe in her tower but at other towers whole mage populations were being slaughtered.

 

They chose a time when the Templars had Annulled two circles in quick succession and were now looking at making a further example of the general mage populace because one mage had attempted to kill the Divine Justinia.  You just know that is going to be messy. For a large proportion of the mage population there was not going to be a better time. The way things were going it was now or never. She was either oblivious to the plight of mages outside of her own Circle or just didn't care.

 

  

1) Kirkwall was annulled for a whole plethora of idiocy.  Meredith was psychotic with the red lyrium, Anders was sociopathic, Elthena wouldn't address the actual problem, Orsino was hiding and protecting blood mages, etc etc etc. The heck with annulling the circle in Kirkwall, Anders should have just blown the whole city off the map.

 

2) The Circle at Dairsmund was annulled because it was functioning in full violation of the rules.  And they didn't call for the right of annullment until the mages started resisting and attacking them to prevent the templars from restoring order.  The 1st enchanter of the circle even says they were winning until the Templars invoked the ROA.  It was really stupid timing to pick a fight with the templars after all the other issues with rebellions in circles and the events of the white spire.

 

3)She grew up in a circle tower the same as any other mage.  While things cracked down after Kirkwall, she was reasonable enough to know that eventually things would return to normalcy.  Heck, even after Kirkwall the 1st Enchanter of the circle near Montsimmard in Orlais hosted nobility for a banquet that rivaled the banquets thrown by the imperial court in Val Royuex and the 1st enchanter gave each of the guests an enchanted item as a party favor.  The idea that all circles are reflections of Kirkwall is ridiculous.  Even the orlesians say that the free marches are horrible in their treatment of mages in the circles.

[frankf43]

What? See, this is why I think any "pro-mage" people exist. They have huge misconceptions.

Enslaved: If "enslaved" means you get to relax in a gigantic tower, never worry about finding food or shelter, have access to education, you're surrounded by people like you, and never have to work a day in their lives then I'd love to be enslaved. Finn apparently loves it.

 

Tortured: Umm, what? Not even Ser Aldrik tortured mages.

 

Raped: Its implied Ser Aldrik raped mages/tranquil. More than implied, Divine Justinia and even Meredith thought he was crazy.

 

Murdered: "If you cannot think of a better way, do not brand me a tyrant!" - Meredith

Mages love to complain and whine about freedom, totally oblivious to all the luxuries they have. They demand freedom and don't care about the consequences others suffer when a mage goes bad... Nearly every mage we met in DA2 was "bad".

 

Even Anders himself had an easy Circle. Security was lax, "everyone was kissing everyone", even Wynne of all people slept with a Templar. And look what happened because of that... Mages still wanted more and ended up killing everything because a portion of them were selfish... And really, it only takes one bad mage to cause devastation. That's why Templars need to be vigilant.

 

 

I can actually. Do your job and hunt down the Blood mages don't just slaughter a whole community because of the sins of the few. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@MissOuj:  There is absolutely nothing "self-actualized" or "wise" about Thedosian mages.  They're born with a gun in their hands and a best friend always whispering in their ear to use it... that's all.

 

And the ubermensch was just "Secular Christ/Buddha/Mahamta/etc. etc"  Not unlike the Nichomachean Ethics or the Analects of Confucius (neither of which expressed particularly divine relevance to the "better" person)

[Sylvius the Mad]

ill make no secret I don't like mages but i fear you pro mage people might have to do a double take once you see the acts they have committed And ask you self dos the ends justify the means?

Always. Every time.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sylvius the Mad:  I really wonder - are you absolutely serious?  Or is this roleplaying?  

You really think anything is justified? 

[Sylvius the Mad]

@Sylvius the Mad: I really wonder - are you absolutely serious? Or is this roleplaying?

You really think anything is justified?

If ever you think the ends don't justify the means, you haven't defined your ends well enough. The justification of the means is guaranteed by the very nature of ends.

Think about it. If there's an event where you don't think the means were acceptable, I'm confident you disagree with the results (the ends) of using those means.

[MissOuJ]

@MissOuj:  There is absolutely nothing "self-actualized" or "wise" about Thedosian mages.  They're born with a gun in their hands and a best friend always whispering in their ear to use it... that's all.

 

... which was almost exactly my point (ie. we were using the term incorrectly and that in its proper meaning the mages are actually antithesis of the übermensch). Also, I never claimed that they were particularly wise. Did you read my post at all?

 

And they're born with a gun in their hand the same way a person with a strong genetic affinity to build muscle is a cage fighter. Again, we've seen inanimate beings (like trees), animals and non-mages being possessed by demons, so the "mundanes" can just as well be born with the gun - they're just more likely to be unaware of it.

 

Magic is an ability much like any other, and I'm in no way against regulating it and/or making magical education mandatory for mages, but the way the Circles operate just plain doesn't work in this capacity, and on top of it, it is a seriously twisted religious organisation that abuses the very people it should be helping and protecting.

 

So if the teams I have to choose between are Templars/Chantry and the Mages, I'll always choose the mages.

 

Of course I'd rather choose the team "Can we just learn to get along and help each other out and build a better society together", but it seems that's not an option, so I have to choose the one I deem more likely to cause less damage overall.

[MisterJB]

so if you watched the recent stream you probably saw the convo with Vivienne where she essentially mocks the rebellious mages for being selfish childish narcissistic brats. All they cared about was the templars being mean to them and the events of asunder i'm assuming, ignoring the fact that they lived luxurious lives completely away from the suffering of the average thedosian, who probably viewed them less than charitably after Anders little stunt and several attempts on the life of the divine,  which i found to be both hilarious and accurate.  what did you guys think, was she right? or at least interesting

Post of the day.

[aetheldod]

From my part altho Im dont like Vivienne´s design ... I kind of like her attitude... however my inquisition will have the best solution , no circles because there wont be mages to fill them up and since there wont be mages no need for templar either

[Medhia_Nox]

@MisOuj: Actually - I did misunderstand your post and for that I apologize.  I re-read it afterward and figured I had gotten it wrong (which you confirm here).  I'll admit to a bit of a knee-jerk reaction there since in my post I added "mentally" and "physically" and wanted to defend my "mis"-use of it a bit.  Mea Culpa.

 

I agree with nearly everything you say - except I don't think it matters that it's a "religious" organization.  All organizations - from governments to little league teams can become twisted.  That people seem to focus on religous organizations betrays a bias I feel.

 

It is made fairly clear that mages are beacons for demons.  

 

And I think my point is exactly what you said about the physique of the cage fighter.  Mages are born with Talent... talent means absolutely squat without technique.  A lot of people with "talent" do nothing relevant with their lives... while plenty of people with less "talent" go on to do great things by growing in technique. 

 

While the Circle does hinder it... constantly whining about your freedoms ALSO hinders your magical development.  And now... there are just going to be a bunch of people with dangerous talents running around incapable of learning technique while shining a giant flashlight into the Fade like a dinner bell.  

[frankf43]

 ill make no secret I  don't like mages but i fear you pro mage people might have to do a double take once you see the  acts they have committed  And ask you self dos the ends justify the means?

 

I'm not actually pro-mage I think that both sides have their evil side. The problem is that the Chantry evil is accepted and even justified. There are a large portion of the mage community who need to be found and made to pay for their crimes. The likes of Bethany never did anything  to hurt the innocent, yet she would have been executed with hundreds of other innocents because the Templars can't be bother to find the guilty and just would rather cull the whole mage population. 

 

The same in DA:O.

 

Warden, "Well I'll go in and root out the Blood mages and kill the demons and all will be good."

 

Templars "Really? Why bother? When we get word back we are just going to wipe out the lot of them whether they were involved or not. Truly it's much easier this way. Saves a whole lot of hastle" 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sylvius the Mad:  Interesting... because I'd say that if you believe you have well defined ends... then you haven't thought it through enough.

 

@frankf43:  And yet, Greagoir lets you do exactly that.  The Knight Commander of that Circle lets you go in and save the mages.

[Osena109]

I'm not actually pro-mage I think that both sides have their evil side. The problem is that the Chantry evil is accepted and even justified. There are a large portion of the mage community who need to be found and made to pay for their crimes. The likes of Bethany never did anything  to hurt the innocent, yet she would have been executed with hundreds of other innocents because the Templars can't be bother to find the guilty and just would rather cull the whole mage population. 

 

The same in DA:O.

 

Warden, "Well I'll go in and root out the Blood mages and kill the demons and all will be good."

 

Templars "Really? Why bother? When we get word back we are just going to wipe out the lot of them whether they were involved or not. Truly it's much easier this way. Saves a whole lot of hastle" 

The needs of the many are greater then the needs of the few or the one and i do not see the  Chantry as evil as a whole they do good works they educate the poor every one  has literacy in the world the feed the poor now that been said i do feel there are zealots but there there are more good people then zealots that can  be said of any one

[herkles]

I'm not actually pro-mage I think that both sides have their evil side. The problem is that the Chantry evil is accepted and even justified. There are a large portion of the mage community who need to be found and made to pay for their crimes. The likes of Bethany never did anything  to hurt the innocent, yet she would have been executed with hundreds of other innocents because the Templars can't be bother to find the guilty and just would rather cull the whole mage population. 

 

The chantry is not evil* yes they are a religion that spans most of thedas, they are not a religion of evil. While corruption exists within it, as it is an organzation of men and all men are faliable; that does not make it evil or supportive of evil. They are a religion that does try to do good, as that is part of its teachings to do good. They don't always succed but then no one is prefect.

 

besides without conflict there wouldn't be any stories for us to play in

 

 

*imperial chantry as is most things in tevinter almost certainly is though. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

@Sylvius the Mad: Interesting... because I'd say that if you believe you have well defined ends... then you haven't thought it through enough.

I don't think you understand.

If your ends include not harming innocents, then any means that harms innocents fails to achieve your ends. Any consequence you actively want to avoid is the negation of one of your desired ends.

So, once you define all of your desired ends, any means that achieves them all is necessarily acceptable.

[sylvanaerie]

I'm not actually pro-mage I think that both sides have their evil side. The problem is that the Chantry evil is accepted and even justified. There are a large portion of the mage community who need to be found and made to pay for their crimes. The likes of Bethany never did anything  to hurt the innocent, yet she would have been executed with hundreds of other innocents because the Templars can't be bother to find the guilty and just would rather cull the whole mage population. 

 

The same in DA:O.

 

Warden, "Well I'll go in and root out the Blood mages and kill the demons and all will be good."

 

Templars "Really? Why bother? When we get word back we are just going to wipe out the lot of them whether they were involved or not. Truly it's much easier this way. Saves a whole lot of hastle" 

 

And if he were 'trying to save a whole lot of hassle" why did Gregoir wait for word?  If he felt the Circle was a lost cause completely he'd have told the Warden to move along, forget the mages and mind his own business.  You want to lump all templars into some ridiculous stereotype of oppressive rapist/murderers when some of them can be reasonable.  The blood mages in the tower there killed a lot more mages during their rebellion than the Rite would have killed.

 

*Edit* When you encounter him, Gregoir is a man nearly overcome with despair "It is too painful to hope there are survivors."

 

Cullen protests, but Gregoir overrides him, accepting Irving's word that the Circle was saved, and goes about his business, after expressing his pleasure Irving made it out okay.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sylvius The Mad:  SO... you're Sten.  Okay.. I'll play.

 

Do your Ends involve anything it takes to achieve whatever it is you define as "mage freedom"?  

 

So - rape, murder, possession, blood sacrifice... all that's cool to achieve your one End? Or... no?  

[Ryzaki]

And if he were 'trying to save a whole lot of hassle" why did Gregoir wait for word?  If he felt the Circle was a lost cause completely he'd have told the Warden to move along, forget the mages and mind his own business.  You want to lump all templars into some ridiculous stereotype of oppressive rapist/murderers when some of them can be reasonable.  The blood mages in the tower there killed a lot more mages during their rebellion than the Rite would have killed.

 

Cullen protests, but Gregoir overrides him, accepting Irving's word that the Circle was saved, and goes about his business, after expressing his pleasure Irving made it out okay.

 

It's like people forget a lot of templars and mages live together for years. These people aren't strangers to one another.

[MissOuJ]

@MisOuj: Actually - I did misunderstand your post and for that I apologize.  I re-read it afterward and figured I had gotten it wrong (which you confirm here).  I'll admit to a bit of a knee-jerk reaction there since in my post I added "mentally" and "physically" and wanted to defend my "mis"-use of it a bit.  Mea Culpa.

 

I agree with nearly everything you say - except I don't think it matters that it's a "religious" organization.  All organizations - from governments to little league teams can become twisted.  That people seem to focus on religous organizations betrays a bias I feel.

 

It is made fairly clear that mages are beacons for demons.  

 

And I think my point is exactly what you said about the physique of the cage fighter.  Mages are born with Talent... talent means absolutely squat without technique.  A lot of people with "talent" do nothing relevant with their lives... while plenty of people with less "talent" go on to do great things by growing in technique. 

 

While the Circle does hinder it... constantly whining about your freedoms ALSO hinders your magical development.  And now... there are just going to be a bunch of people with dangerous talents running around incapable of learning technique while shining a giant flashlight into the Fade like a dinner bell.  

 

No harm, no foul

 

My point about Circle as a religious institution is more about the fact that it's using religion as its source of authority and it's using it to control the mages (remember that girl in DA:O who keeps telling you her magic is a curse and she keeps praying the Maker for salvation?). This is different from other institutions, whose powers and authority come from a societal task they preform, whether real or imagined (the rulers govern, the guards keep order etc.) but usually they have other justification than divine mandate (or at least another one besides that). Both can be corrupt, sure, but Andrastianism has a wider influence than any other institution in Thedas, and religions are usually a very peculiar animals among societal institutions - you can challenge the authority or social mandate of a guard, for example, by pointing out their failings (not doing their job, protecting the people poorly etc.), but how do you question the authority of an institution with a divine mandate? That's a powerful instrument in a religious society.

 

As to the Talent issue... I see no problem as to why mages wouldn't be able able to teach and govern themselves. Freedom and their ability to control themselves and learn to use their gifts responsibly are not mutually exclusive, in my opinion. From my point of view, the problem isn't governance or regulation - the problem is that it's poorly executed and badly managed, on top of being just inhumane and oppressive in general. Again, I'm not against regulation - or even the Templars - nor am I saying that self-regulation should be the only form of regulation. Magic has the potential to be dangerous, but so have people with physical strenght and ability, and both have multiple potential and societally beneficial uses as well. But if all mages get treated like bombs who are about to go off, is it any surprise they end up being resentful of and less connected to the society they're ostracized from?