Let's not forget too that Cullen had just finished getting tortured.
Had it been a mage getting tortured - this board would idolize the character, build monuments, and declare Thedas worthy to burn.
But Cullen? No Cullen should understand that he CAUSED his own torture.
.
And they're born with a gun in their hand the same way a person with a strong genetic affinity to build muscle is a cage fighter. Again, we've seen inanimate beings (like trees), animals and non-mages being possessed by demons, so the "mundanes" can just as well be born with the gun - they're just more likely to be unaware of it.
Magic is an ability much like any other, and I'm in no way against regulating it and/or making magical education mandatory for mages, but the way the Circles operate just plain doesn't work in this capacity, and on top of it, it is a seriously twisted religious organisation that abuses the very people it should be helping and protecting.
So if the teams I have to choose between are Templars/Chantry and the Mages, I'll always choose the mages.
Of course I'd rather choose the team "Can we just learn to get along and help each other out and build a better society together", but it seems that's not an option, so I have to choose the one I deem more likely to cause less damage overall.
I may be mistaken, but we have yet to see a non mage possessed by a demon that didn't involve the veil being weakened. On the other hand, between the games and books we have seen a plethora of mages get possessed at any number of times. Heck in Last Flight they talk about the commonality of Grey Warden Mages to let themselves be possessed right before they are overrun by the horde of darkspawn in an effort to take as many with them as they can. In fact we see a warden become an abomination while riding on his/her griffon.
Whats more, and what makes the true nature of the gun analogy is that if any of those non magic beings or objects become possessed, while yes they do pose a certain level of danger, they are not the world destroying danger that is an Abomination.
Against a normal possessed human or tree or what have you, a normal person has some chance at fighting back, against an abomination on the loose, they don't. We haven't heard any stories of Grey Bark the flesh devouring rampaging tree killing hundreds, we have multiple accounts of abominations doing just that.
The chantry is not evil* yes they are a religion that spans most of thedas, they are not a religion of evil. While corruption exists within it, as it is an organzation of men and all men are faliable; that does not make it evil or supportive of evil. They are a religion that does try to do good, as that is part of its teachings to do good. They don't always succed but then no one is prefect.
besides without conflict there wouldn't be any stories for us to play in
*imperial chantry as is most things in tevinter almost certainly is though.
It's the organisation that decides to wipe out a whole load of innocent mages rather than making their Templars do the hard work rooting out the blood/rebel mages. It has nothing to do with the faults of individual Templars/Sisters, which I will admit are many, but the ease at which they as an organisation will decide to condemn a whole community to death over the actions of a few evil mages.
Let's not forget too that Cullen had just finished getting tortured.
Had it been a mage getting tortured - this board would idolize the character, build monuments, and declare Thedas worthy to burn.
But Cullen? No Cullen should understand that he CAUSED his own torture.
You mean this board doesn't idolize Cullen?
Non-mages and inanimate objects are like rice cakes when you have an entire buffet at your disposal. Sure you "could" eat the rice cakes... but "why"?
Que the person who LOVES rice cakes. 
@frankf43: Yes, a good portion does.. but only because they think he's dreamy.
Any other talk about Cullen is about his evil tyrannical hate-on for mages after he was tortured by them.
No harm, no foul
My point about Circle as a religious institution is more about the fact that it's using religion as its source of authority and it's using it to control the mages (remember that girl in DA:O who keeps telling you her magic is a curse and she keeps praying the Maker for salvation?). This is different from other institutions, whose powers and authority come from a societal task they preform, whether real or imagined (the rulers govern, the guards keep order etc.) but usually they have other justification than divine mandate (or at least another one besides that). Both can be corrupt, sure, but Andrastianism has a wider influence than any other institution in Thedas, and religions are usually a very peculiar animals among societal institutions - you can challenge the authority or social mandate of a guard, for example, by pointing out their failings (not doing their job, protecting the people poorly etc.), but how do you question the authority of an institution with a divine mandate? That's a powerful instrument in a religious society.
I actually am not certain that the circles operate from a divine authority to control mages. A neutral multinational entity was needed to both police and protect mages early on. The 1st inquisition did that to an extent, but I am certain that countries and rulers weren't entirely comfortable with an armed force going around half cocked on its own initiative. The Chantry gave the inquisition respectability while also giving rulers and countries some sense of comfort that the inquisition/templars would have some level of control on their actions/authority.
That is my headcannon for why the accord happened in the 1st place anyway. Not based on any secret info I know, just the way I have tied the plots together.
It's the organisation that decides to wipe out a whole load of innocent mages rather than making their Templars do the hard work rooting out the blood/rebel mages. It has nothing to do with the faults of individual Templars/Sisters, which I will admit are many, but the ease at which they as an organisation will decide to condemn a whole community to death over the actions of a few evil mages.
David Gaider and I believe even Laidlaw have stated on multiple occassions that there is no known way to test mages for possession or not. Gregoirre was taking the 1st enchanter at his word and thereby saving the lives of the tower mages. Interesting act for a man the 1st enchanter acussed of wanting to tranquil them all if he could.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Non-mages and inanimate objects are like rice cakes when you have an entire buffet at your disposal. Sure you "could" eat the rice cakes... but "why"?
Que the person who LOVES rice cakes.
@frankf43: Yes, a good portion does.. but only because they think he's dreamy.
Any other talk about Cullen is about his evil tyrannical hate-on for mages after he was tortured by them.
I'm a little confused. Are you asking why anyone would like not being a mage?
I suppose it's the same reason I like real life. And my 5 senses. And the tactile nature of physical activities.
You mean this board doesn't idolize Cullen?
not really. they idolize his body 
bow chicka bow wow
also dude, youre waaaaaay too deep into this arguement i mean, for sure argue your point, but since you've already come to a conclusion, maybe just back off a bit.
I'm a little confused. Are you asking why anyone would like not being a mage?
I suppose it's the same reason I like real life. And my 5 senses. And the tactile nature of physical activities.
No he is replying to Missouj comment about demons being able to possess non mages and inanimate objects.
When a demon is desperate it possesses what it can as opposed to what it wants- ie a mage.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
No he is replying to Missouj comment about demons being able to possess non mages and inanimate objects.
When a demon is desperate it possesses what it can as opposed to what it wants- ie a mage.
Oh OK. Forget my reply then. This thread is moving fast, and I'm just jumping in occassionally.
It would seem that demons and spirits sometimes just get trapped in objects and corpses too. Against their will.
I found her Vivienne's speech smug, arrogant, and self-ignorant of reality. It was very similar to how Wynne was in Asunder only Wynne seemed to actually give a damn about her people. Vivienne just felt pissed because she lost her status with the rebellion. That isn't to say she is completely wrong just incredibly biased with highly self-centered viewpoint. Its actually about what I expected form her character. I can tell I will be at odds with her a decent amount.
@wcholcombe: I wonder if mages wouldn't be able to "scan" the Fade watching their fellows for signs of possession.
You know - I wonder what the difference between the Harrowing and entering the Fade to save Connor is. Why does one take a dish of lyrium and the other takes a bunch of mages and a heaping ton of lyrium.
Also - how do demons drag non-mages into the Fade. By rights that suggests mages should be able to do it I wager.
I think that it's the diversity of the circles who influences her decision. She is from what I understand from the capital of Orlais. Her tower may be a safe haven where oversight and mutual respect and understanding makes the infringes on her freedom an easier burdan to bear for public safety. Personally I am pro circle reformation not revolution (bad system, let's make it better not destroy it) and as such agree with her that the break from the chantry where a bad idea. However I know very little of what happened in the other circles between the Kirkwall Anders Went Boom and the break from the chantry. There is an edge from where the mages has to fight back or just be slaughtered as when Meredith decided that the whole circle should die from Anders actions. From what I understand it was the repercussions from this and a fear of being blamed from any magic related incident that drove the rebellion. After all if you should be held responsible for every mage it doesn't really matter what you do, the Templars guarding you could kill you any way. No matter what the mage-freedom faction or the circle faction says mages rights have very little to do with the final break but an fear of liberal handling of the rights of annulment and repercussions for apostates and other circles actions.
So yes Vivienne had a point...if that's what the rebellion was about. But that is to elevate Anders to a spokesperson for all circle mages which he really isn't just the one of the most extreme faction that dragged everyone else down with them.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Also - how do demons drag non-mages into the Fade. By rights that suggests mages should be able to do it I wager.
That's a good question.
So far, the only way I see them do it is by deluding and leeching off of person (whether it was Desire or Sloth).
I'd have been pissed if an angry mob destroyed everything I was working for too.
The Lucrosians, Isolationists and Loyalists all decided to return to the Circle - the Aequatarians and the Libertarians decided to ruin her life.
@wcholcombe: I wonder if mages wouldn't be able to "scan" the Fade watching their fellows for signs of possession.
You know - I wonder what the difference between the Harrowing and entering the Fade to save Connor is. Why does one take a dish of lyrium and the other takes a bunch of mages and a heaping ton of lyrium.
Also - how do demons drag non-mages into the Fade. By rights that suggests mages should be able to do it I wager.
The Veil. The room used in the Harrowing has a thinner veil than what was (theoretically) in Redcliffe. Thinking after all that death in Redcliffe though, the veil might be a bit thinner now.
Another thing, I always wondered just what pride demon corrupted Uldred. Considering we find him in the Harrowing Chamber and possessed of a demon cut along the same emotion as the one in the PC's harrowing...were they one and the same?
I'd have been pissed if an angry mob destroyed everything I was working for too.
The Lucrosians, Isolationists and Loyalists all decided to return to the Circle - the Aequatarians and the Libertarians decided to ruin her life.
Word. I want to meet more Lucrosians.
The Veil. The room used in the Harrowing has a thinner veil than what was (theoretically) in Redcliffe. Thinking after all that death in Redcliffe though, the veil might be a bit thinner now.
Another thing, I always wondered just what pride demon corrupted Uldred. Considering we find him in the Harrowing Chamber and possessed of a demon cut along the same emotion as the one in the PC's harrowing...were they one and the same?
It probably also has to do with the fact that in the Harrowing you just randomly go to the fade, whereas in redcliff you were specifically seeking a specific demon/location in the fade.
As for mages being able to scan the fade, I have no clue, but Gaider said after DA2 that there is no way for the circles/chantry to test if someone is possessed or not.
not really. they idolize his body
also dude, youre waaaaaay too deep into this arguement
Okay. I Just trying to put my point across but if it's too full on then I'll let it rest. After all we are all just fans of a fantasy game and are not discussing real world issues. So Chillax.
Okay. I Just trying to put my point across but if it's too full on then I'll let it rest. After all we are all just fans of a fantasy game and are not discussing real world issues. So Chillax.
.......well ill be damned someone who's willing to let a forum conversation just be a forum conversation, that's pretty rare around here
I may be mistaken, but we have yet to see a non mage possessed by a demon that didn't involve the veil being weakened. On the other hand, between the games and books we have seen a plethora of mages get possessed at any number of times. Heck in Last Flight they talk about the commonality of Grey Warden Mages to let themselves be possessed right before they are overrun by the horde of darkspawn in an effort to take as many with them as they can. In fact we see a warden become an abomination while riding on his/her griffon.
Whats more, and what makes the true nature of the gun analogy is that if any of those non magic beings or objects become possessed, while yes they do pose a certain level of danger, they are not the world destroying danger that is an Abomination.
Against a normal possessed human or tree or what have you, a normal person has some chance at fighting back, against an abomination on the loose, they don't. We haven't heard any stories of Grey Bark the flesh devouring rampaging tree killing hundreds, we have multiple accounts of abominations doing just that.
Well I don't know about "possessed", but a plenty of non-mages have gotten influenced by demons (the Templar during the Broken Circle quest, the woman who was responsible for the Vael murders) - but true, most of the time this happends when the demon is already outside the Veil. And yes, abominations are deadlier than regular mages or possessed corpses, but we do have accounts of Sylvans wrecking stuff - not quite Isengard-level of destruction, but they seemed to do pretty decent damage in The Masked Empire. Point being, magic and demons are dangerous, but it's not just the mages who are the problem, and isolating the problem to a selected group of people in a world which is literally full of magic is putting bliners on the general populance and telling them the mages are suffering from the Maker's judgement since the Tevinter magisters were the ones who killed Andraste. It's giving a false sense of security.
But anyway, even if we dismiss that point, the question remains - how do we keep mages from turning into abominations? By subjecting them to the Harrowing, keeping them in isolation and treating them like misbehaving sinners who don't deserve freedom or agency? Or by giving them a reason to resist, not just the tools and the means? All other things being equal, isn't a mage who has a reason to resist possession (societal connections, family etc.) more likely to do so than a mage who's living under constant fear and judgement?
The the Circles operated by creating an isolated populance with little to no social contacts, then topped that off with a bit of religious dogma made to make them feel guilty about who they were and what they could do, and made this the reason they were denied freedom and agency. That gave the mages two possibilities: to either internalise a negative self-image or to reject it, so we have people with powerful abilities who either 1) hate themselves to some degree or level, or 2) hate the system that wants them to internalise a negative self-image. Of course there are also individuals such as Wynne who accept their captivity and agree with the Chantry logic, but I'd argue that even she carries some psychological baggage regarding her status as a mage (or has isolated that part of herself - ie. "I'm not like those other mages").
But all in all, I'd actually argue that from a psychological point of view the Circle is unwittingly manufacturing potential possession-victims in stead of helping them to use their gifts/talents safely. That, and putting the mundane population in danger by making the mages the go-to scapegoats when it comes to demons and demonic influences in stead of recognizing and adressing the real problems.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I wonder how many mages would succumb if they lived in a more liberal Circle environment (not any or as many Templars). They blame Templars for their own shortcomings all the time.
I'd like to test that out..
I'd never want to get rid of the Harrowing though. It's isn't a permanent solution. Just a small assurance that the mage isn't a liability.
I wonder how many mages would succumb if they lived in a more liberal Circle environment (not any or as many Templars). They blame Templars for their own shortcomings all the time.
I'd like to test that out..
I'd never want to get rid of the Harrowing though. It's isn't a permanent solution. Just a small assurance that the mage isn't a liability.
But how? As I said earlier, there are many who never go through the Harrowing, and still function as mages. The Harrowing itself doesn't guarantee that a mage won't become an abomination. Look how many Circle mages still become abominations, and they've all been Harrowed. Then you have Merrill's statement that Dalish abominations are rare (though just as destructive) and they never Harrow. Bethany and Hawke weren't Harrowed and neither was Morrigan. I would assume Solas hasn't been, and maybe not even Dorian.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
But how? As I said earlier, there are many who never go through the Harrowing, and still function as mages. The Harrowing itself doesn't guarantee that a mage won't become an abomination. Look how many Circle mages still become abominations, and they've all been Harrowed. Then you have Merrill's statement that Dalish abominations are rare (though just as destructive) and they never Harrow. Bethany and Hawke weren't Harrowed and neither was Morrigan. I would assume Solas hasn't been, and maybe not even Dorian.
It doesn't matter as much if they're hedge mage loners like Solas. It's different in an enclosed social environment. You need some small assurance that a mage can shut out listening to the temptations that will be thrown their way.
It's not just a Circle thing though. The Chasind harrow their own mages as well. It's varies with culture.
I would almost say Flemeth taught the same lesson to Morrigan in a different way -- she taught Morrigan to be fiercely independent. Which is what is needed. She just went about it differently.
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