1751 réponses à ce sujet

[frankf43]

But how? As I said earlier, there are many who never go through the Harrowing, and still function as mages. The Harrowing itself doesn't guarantee that a mage won't become an abomination. Look how many Circle mages still become abominations, and they've all been Harrowed. Then you have Merrill's statement that Dalish abominations are rare (though just as destructive) and they never Harrow. Bethany and Hawke weren't Harrowed and neither was Morrigan. I would assume Solas hasn't been, and maybe not even Dorian. 

 

Could it be that Harrowing weakens mages to the temptation demons bring? 

[sylvanaerie]

But how? As I said earlier, there are many who never go through the Harrowing, and still function as mages. The Harrowing itself doesn't guarantee that a mage won't become an abomination. Look how many Circle mages still become abominations, and they've all been Harrowed. Then you have Merrill's statement that Dalish abominations are rare (though just as destructive) and they never Harrow. Bethany and Hawke weren't Harrowed and neither was Morrigan. I would assume Solas hasn't been, and maybe not even Dorian. 

 

Bethany was Harrowed once they took her to Kirkwall's Circle, which she found ridiculous. Since it doesn't say at what age mages are typically Harrowed (as age is left open for the Mage Warden), one would assume she was of an age when she either was 'ready for' or 'should have been' Harrowed.  

Silly, but understandable considering the rampant paranoia and prevalence of blood mages/abominations in Kirkwall.

[saMoorai]

I found her Vivienne's speech smug, arrogant, and self-ignorant of reality. It was very similar to how Wynne was in Asunder only Wynne seemed to actually give a damn about her people. Vivienne just felt pissed because she lost her status with the rebellion. That isn't to say she is completely wrong just incredibly biased with highly self-centered viewpoint. Its actually about what I expected form her character. I can tell I will be at odds with her a decent amount.

 

Vivienne's Speech might have been Smug and a bit arrogant, but I wouldn't call it Self-Ignorant. Compared to the mages fighting in the war, she has a better idea of the big picture, and all the problems it's going to cause, and how the actions of the Mages in the past few years have led to the war (Not to imply that the Templars are blameless by any means. Both sides are at fault). And the loss of her power might have made her biased, she's a high ranking member of the Inquisition now, so she's now in a new position of power. I think its unfair to say she only holds these beliefs because she's bitter, Listening to her speech, she actually seemed to believe that the Circle should be restored.

 

She understands that this War might grant Mages their freedom, but that everyone will pay the cost for it; Freedom or no.

[volkoff]

Mage 1:  Hey, because of Anders (who killed HUNDREDS of people... it's now confirmed) - the people hate us even MORE!  Now even fewer commoners will support us.

 

Mage 2:  OMG - perfect time for a rebellion! 

 

Mage 1:  Wait - do we know how to forage for food?  Put up a tent?  Cook?  Sleep on anything but our soft beds?  Resist the elements?  NO?  LET'S REBEL! YAY!

 

It truly is as if modern teens planned a rebellion against their parents. 

and how come they arent able to pitch a tent ( ) or forage for food, cook, sleep on rocks, resists the elements etc by themselves?

oh right, they're imprisoned! they're prisoners because they were born slightly differently then the average person. not allowed to live a normal live because they're different. hmm, it sounds like something that has happened a couple of times in real life history that didn't end well either and is frowned upon nowadays... but i cant remember what exactly...
 

 

I honestly don't think Vivienne has a problem with the mages who fight against oppression.  They were minuscule in number, and they would be dealt with, regardless.  She seems more bitter and angry that the minority of mages unilaterally declared the Circle system no more, and essentially, made all mages an enemy to Thedas.

 

It's rather telling that the facts are that Anders blew up a chantry, and the mages complained about the new restrictions because of that action, rather than complain about the fact that Anders blew up a chantry...

the reason anders resorted to that action was because the system was broken. justice wouldn't've been a problem if the system was fair or good. it's not justice to be imprisoned because you -might- do something bad. that way you could imprison everyone in thedas because they might screw up. and putting restrictions on everyone of a certain group because 1 person did something bad isn't justice either. if they would've agreed to the new restrictions it would've still ended up in rebellion at some point because someone else would break and do something rash.

and everyone seems to be forgetting meredith´s red lyrium craze. she's the catalyst. she´s just as guilty (if not more) as anders. she put on the screws on the mages which caused anders(justice) to break. and instead of finding the guilty mage she intended to kill every single one of them. that's genocide. which caused the mages to rebell. sure, anders did a bad thing. it was stupid and unplanned but hell would've broken loose sooner or later(especially in kirkwall) and then the templars would've still imposed restrictions(hell if meredith was there it wouldn't've surprised me if she still wanted to kill the majority if a small group rebelled in a mild manner.)

in the end the system was rotten. the circumstances atm are crap but that's partly because the mages are hunted. and when people are hunted and desperate they resort to extreme things (like dangerous magic) which again is the red lyrium/merediths fault. sure a mild rebellion would've been better but it isn't just anders his fault that things are so bad right now.

[wcholcombe]

Well I don't know about "possessed", but a plenty of non-mages have gotten influenced by demons (the Templar during the Broken Circle quest, the woman who was responsible for the Vael murders) - but true, most of the time this happends when the demon is already outside the Veil. And yes, abominations are deadlier than regular mages or possessed corpses, but we do have accounts of Sylvans wrecking stuff - not quite Isengard-level of destruction, but they seemed to do pretty decent damage in The Masked Empire. Point being, magic and demons are dangerous, but it's not just the mages who are the problem, and isolating the problem to a selected group of people in a world which is literally full of magic is putting bliners on the general populance and telling them the mages are suffering from the Maker's judgement since the Tevinter magisters were the ones who killed Andraste. It's giving a false sense of security.

 

But anyway, even if we dismiss that point, the question remains - how do we keep mages from turning into abominations? By subjecting them to the Harrowing, keeping them in isolation and treating them like misbehaving sinners who don't deserve freedom or agency? Or by giving them a reason to resist, not just the tools and the means? All other things being equal, isn't a mage who has a reason to resist possession (societal connections, family etc.) more likely to do so than a mage who's living under constant fear and judgement?

 

The the Circles operated by creating an isolated populance with little to no social contacts, then topped that off with a bit of religious dogma made to make them feel guilty about who they were and what they could do, and made this the reason they were denied freedom and agency. That gave the mages two possibilities: to either internalise a negative self-image or to reject it, so we have people with powerful abilities who either 1) hate themselves to some degree or level, or 2) hate the system that wants them to internalise a negative self-image. Of course there are also individuals such as Wynne who accept their captivity and agree with the Chantry logic, but I'd argue that even she carries some psychological baggage regarding her status as a mage (or has isolated that part of herself - ie. "I'm not like those other mages").

 

But all in all, I'd actually argue that from a psychological point of view the Circle is unwittingly manufacturing potential possession-victims in stead of helping them to use their gifts/talents safely. That, and putting the mundane population in danger by making the mages the go-to scapegoats when it comes to demons and demonic influences in stead of recognizing and adressing the real problems.

The Chantry dogma doesn't make mages have a negative self image of themselves. As Justinia herself said, magic is a gift from the maker.

 

Now, the idiotic interpretation of some misconstrue this? Sure.   But you have that in everything.  You have mages who misconstrue things for their own benefit and interpretation, as you have with wardens and others.

 

Also, I wouldn't make the argument that Thedas is teaming with magic. Gaider and company have been very consistent on the point that Thedas is a low magic world compared to most other gaming worlds.

 

I will admit that the hard line stance of the templars that we currently have seen to predominant the templar ranks causes problems and issues, but I do not think that is an intrinsic failing of the circle systems.  The circles have been around over 900 years. We haven't gotten specific stats, but I believe estimates range from 20-30 circles( I found this number high, but it is based off a comment made by Cameron Lee) not counting tevinter, and I believe we have figure up from the WoT that there have been 19 ROA in the 700 years it has existed(possibly 20 depending on how you handle the circle in DAO).

 

So if you say 20 ROA in 20 circles over 700 years...thats not too bad a return on investment for security.  Yes, I will argue the templars of late have been harsh, but the point that is always missed is the mages are not without blame to a degree for the deterioration of the situation.

 

The system works as it has shown.  The ancient records of hedge wizards going crazy, chasind possession, the very need for the inquisition in the first place to both protect and police mages indicates a need for it.

 

Also, it isn't like a bunch of mage hating orlesians invented the circles, they took the idea from Tevinter who first created the circle systems and the harrowing I believe. 

 

The system works. It and the individuals involved needed reforming yes.  Notice I said the individuals, mages and templars.  There are mages that are just as much uncompromising hard liners as there are templars. Adrian and Orsino to me are just as guilty as Lambert and Meredith.

 

However, the answer isn't to let mages live their lives and run around willy nilly living wherever they wish without oversight or training.

[frankf43]

The Chantry dogma doesn't make mages have a negative self image of themselves. As Justinia herself said, magic is a gift from the maker.

 

Now, the idiotic interpretation of some misconstrue this? Sure.   But you have that in everything.  You have mages who misconstrue things for their own benefit and interpretation, as you have with wardens and others.

 

Also, I wouldn't make the argument that Thedas is teaming with magic. Gaider and company have been very consistent on the point that Thedas is a low magic world compared to most other gaming worlds.

 

I will admit that the hard line stance of the templars that we currently have seen to predominant the templar ranks causes problems and issues, but I do not think that is an intrinsic failing of the circle systems.  The circles have been around over 900 years. We haven't gotten specific stats, but I believe estimates range from 20-30 circles( I found this number high, but it is based off a comment made by Cameron Lee) not counting tevinter, and I believe we have figure up from the WoT that there have been 19 ROA in the 700 years it has existed(possibly 20 depending on how you handle the circle in DAO).

 

So if you say 20 ROA in 20 circles over 700 years...thats not too bad a return on investment for security.  Yes, I will argue the templars of late have been harsh, but the point that is always missed is the mages are not without blame to a degree for the deterioration of the situation.

 

The system works as it has shown.  The ancient records of hedge wizards going crazy, chasind possession, the very need for the inquisition in the first place to both protect and police mages indicates a need for it.

 

Also, it isn't like a bunch of mage hating orlesians invented the circles, they took the idea from Tevinter who first created the circle systems and the harrowing I believe. 

 

The system works. It and the individuals involved needed reforming yes.  Notice I said the individuals, mages and templars.  There are mages that are just as much uncompromising hard liners as there are templars. Adrian and Orsino to me are just as guilty as Lambert and Meredith.

 

However, the answer isn't to let mages live their lives and run around willy nilly living wherever they wish without oversight or training.

 

That's hard to believe seeing as magic has played a major role in both of the games we have played so far. But I will concede to their grater knowledge.  

[lil yonce]

The Chantry dogma doesn't make mages have a negative self image of themselves. As Justinia herself said, magic is a gift from the maker.

 

Now, the idiotic interpretation of some misconstrue this? Sure.   But you have that in everything.  You have mages who misconstrue things for their own benefit and interpretation, as you have with wardens and others.

Actually, the Chantry's #1 tenet from WoT is, "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world."

[lil yonce]

It's called a gift by Andrase too.

 

"Foul and corrupt are they

who have taken his gift

And turned it against his children."

 

It's a "corrupting influence" in the Chantry's eyes when you dispute that. The number 1 tenet is: "Magic exists to serve man. Never to rule over him." They want it to be a force of good in the world.

That comes from the Chant of Light, and the Chant and the Chantry are separate. The Chant came long before the Chantry, in fact. WoT is specific that Chantry 's #1 tenet is, "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world." It lists three other core principles of the Chantry as well, but this is the first and most defining.

[Bigdoser]

She has a point. When I played my mage warden, and I was in full role as him, he felt that the outside world was a disorganized mess that was far from the quality of the circle. The mages technically are living a better quality life then most of the people of thedus. But there's is a huge counter to her point. It's a guilded cage and even well treated pets are at the mercy of the wills of their masters. Giving mages more freedom would not of been a problem.

 

My mage was the opposite at first he enjoyed the circle but when he finally got outdoors he finally realized what he was missing. Plus the fact he did not remember his family since you have an option to say you were bought in that young.

[herkles]

That comes from the Chant of Light, and the Chant and the Chantry are separate. The Chant came long before the Chantry, in fact. WoT is specific that Chantry 's #1 tenet is, "Magic is a corrupting influence in the world." It lists three other core principles of the Chantry as well, but this is the first and most defining.

 

Just out of couristiy what were the other three core principles of the chantry? Since my first inquistor is pro-chantry I would be interested in knowing the other three for roleplaying purposes. 

[metalfenix]

I hope Vivienne gets used to the wonderful sorroundings of Skyhold, because she will be there all the time (only if I even recruit her). And no, no money from me for fashion dresses and robes.

[lil yonce]

Just out of couristiy what were the other three core principles of the chantry? Since my first inquistor is pro-chantry I would be interested in knowing the other three for roleplaying purposes. 

I. Magic is a corrupting influence in the world.

II. Humankind's sin of pride destroyed the Golden City and created the darkspawn, terrible embodiments of that sin.

III. Andraste was the bride of the Maker, a prophet and martyr whose ultimate sacrifice must be remembered and honored.

IV. Humankind has sinned and must seek penance to earn the Maker's forgiveness. When all people unite to praise the Maker, he will return to the world and make it a paradise.

[Shadow Fox]

Why do so many people here equate mage liberty with 21st century liberty?

 

The City Elves and average peasant are "free" yet live in squalor and filth and are at the mercy of others.

 

The best case scenario for "free" mages as things currently are is they'll end up like the City Elves.

 

Worst case is we go back to the pre-Chantry days of lynch mobs and witch hunts.

[eyezonlyii]

Why do so many people here equate mage liberty with 21st century liberty?

 

The City Elves and average peasant are "free" yet live in squalor and filth and are at the mercy of others.

 

The best case scenario for "free" mages as things currently are is they'll end up like the City Elves.

 

Worst case is we go back to the pre-Chantry days of lynch mobs and witch hunts.

Not necessarily. As a mage, there are a few more options on how to make money with your gifts, you just have to be more lowkey about it. For instance, I'm sure a creation mage would be more than welcome in a small village as a healer. Plus older mages could always teach younger mages, thus beginning an incremental step in mage/mundane relations.

[herkles]

I. Magic is a corrupting influence in the world.

II. Humankind's sin of pride destroyed the Golden City and created the darkspawn, terrible embodiments of that sin.

III. Andraste was the bride of the Maker, a prophet and martyr whose ultimate sacrifice must be remembered and honored.

IV. Humankind has sinned and must seek penance to earn the Maker's forgiveness. When all people unite to praise the Maker, he will return to the world and make it a paradise.

 

Thank you!

 

Why do so many people here equate mage liberty with 21st century liberty?

 

The City Elves and average peasant are "free" yet live in squalor and filth and are at the mercy of others.

 

The best case scenario for "free" mages as things currently are is they'll end up like the City Elves.

 

Worst case is we go back to the pre-Chantry days of lynch mobs and witch hunts.

Because people are viewing it from the lense of a modern ideas.

 

It is also the same with the ideas that the chantry could be destroyed or that the templars could become a secular force and modern style police. Where as that does not fit much in with the ideas of a medieval inspired world. 

 

You are though forgetting the opition of the mages forming a second tevinter style country where mages are the oppressors and the mundanes are the oppressed. 

[wcholcombe]

Not necessarily. As a mage, there are a few more options on how to make money with your gifts, you just have to be more lowkey about it. For instance, I'm sure a creation mage would be more than welcome in a small village as a healer. Plus older mages could always teach younger mages, thus beginning an incremental step in mage/mundane relations.

Until all the crops in the village die from drought and the peasants start blaming said mage.

[Shadow Fox]

Not necessarily. As a mage, there are a few more options on how to make money with your gifts, you just have to be more lowkey about it. For instance, I'm sure a creation mage would be more than welcome in a small village as a healer. Plus older mages could always teach younger mages, thus beginning an incremental step in mage/mundane relations.

You are completely forgetting or ignoring that mages are at present universally feared and despised as Vivienne says.

 

Thus it's far more likely they'd either be run out of town or killed on sight.

[wcholcombe]

Thank you!

Because people are viewing it from the lense of a modern ideas.

It is also the same with the ideas that the chantry could be destroyed or that the templars could become a secular force and modern style police. Where as that does not fit much in with the ideas of a medieval inspired world.

You are though forgetting the opition of the mages forming a second tevinter style country where mages are the oppressors and the mundanes are the oppressed.

And what country is going to let them take over? Even if they win the war with the twmplars they won't be in a condition to conquer another country

[eyezonlyii]

You are completely forgetting or ignoring that mages are at present universally feared and despised as Vivienne says.

 

Thus it's far more likely they'd either be run out of town or killed on sight.

Good thing you can't look at someone and tell they are a mage. Well, a Circle mage would stand out, seeing as they have such a great disdain for pants.

[Shadow Fox]

And what country is going to let them take over? Even if they win the war with the twmplars they won't be in a condition to conquer another country

That's the reason I don't consider it a plausible scenario.

 

The first time a mage so much as indicated such an idea there would be a mass slaughter followed by a systematic culling of mages installed by the ruling nations of Thedas

[herkles]

And what country is going to let them take over? Even if they win the war with the twmplars they won't be in a condition to conquer another country

 

None. I said it was an option, I never said it was an option that would be likely to happen far from it. But it is an option that they could try for. Almost certainly fail, yes, but it is still a possibility.

 

Of course most mages are currently feared. The actions of Anders, the two mages that tried to kill the Divine and the chaos of the templar mage war have not helped their cause. People are afraid of mages, they think of mages and the image of anders comes into their mind.  This creates problems for the mages. Also the attitude that commoners have it better off then mages as some zealous mage supporters seem to aurgue likely doesn't help earn them favor with the common man and woman. 

[AshenEndymion]

And what country is going to let them take over? Even if they win the war with the twmplars they won't be in a condition to conquer another country

 

If the mages were to win, outright, against the templars(rather than being on the "better" side of a stalemate), the mages could probably take any or all of the city-states of the Free Marches...

 

Good thing you can't look at someone and tell they are a mage. Well, a Circle mage would stand out, seeing as they have such a great disdain for pants.

 

Actually, you can tell someone is a mage just by looking at them...  Mages don't carry around weapons.

[Doctoglethorpe]

I can understand where she and other pro-circle mages are coming from, to an extent.  But clearly none of them witness the likes of Meredith or Lambert.  Idc how good you have it originally, you're gonna rebel against psychopathic murderers deciding your fate.  Even Wynne saw that in the end.  

 

This is where I am still confused.  Vive is the head of the Orlesian circle now, yes?  Where the hell was she when Lambert was in town?  That wasn't long before the game...