1757 réponses à ce sujet

[thedancingdruid]

Multiple Blood Mages/Maleficar doing horrible, disgusting things to people like feeding them to demons (like Kevan) say hi too.

...

That argument does not work and is stupid. Should I judge all mages by the action of blood mages?

 

I'm so sorry for having given offense, I was just joking, obviously very poorly in retrospect with such a touchy subject.

 

And Keran was an idiot who after being tempted by a demon decided to help the mages by kidnapping one of Hawke's followers...

 

The extreme elements and examples presented in game do not help either argument. But, I believe, for every Wynne and Viv who loved the Circle there are also mages who didn't.

[efd731]

I found her little speech incredibly annoying.  She's too smug and opinionated for me, which is a shame because I think she's got an amazing look, but I don't think I'll be taking her around much.  Kinda like Fenris or Morrigan.  I loved Fenris' voice and Morrigan's look, but I couldn't stand their personalities.

 

(This, by the way, isn't a criticism of Bioware's ability to create characters...it's a testament to their skill at it.  The fact that they can make such fleshed out characters that I find them annoying is amazing.)

See, before this i was in the Anti-Viv camp, but if that's consistently how she acts, i think i just found a new best bud. and also, if you read the transcript of the convo above, you'll see that she states facts. the only opinion implied is in her tone. but yeah, interesting for sure

[ArvinDulku]

I'm so sorry for having given offense, I was just joking, obviously very poorly in retrospect with such a touchy subject.
 
And Keran was an idiot who after being tempted by a demon decided to help the mages by kidnapping one of Hawke's followers...
 
The extreme elements and examples presented in game do not help either argument. But, I believe, for every Wynne and Viv who loved the Circle there are also mages who didn't.

Oh, no no, sorry. I ain't offended.

I just get annoyed at that line of argument, cause all it does is seem to give the person who puts it forth some assumed sense of righteousness without actually proving anything at all.

We good.

And I acknowledge there are obvious flaws in the current system, big ones even. I just feel that the current structure CAN be improved on, with both parties leaving the table happy.

But an complete breakaway for the mages with complete freedom? It's never happening, no matter how much blood is spilled.

Unless, of course, Tevinter is the model to which they aspire.

At which point I guess, well, all right then.

[Annarl]

We have no idea what perspective Viv is coming from (ie we don't know what her life as a Mage was like or how she's come to these conclusions or other relevant info that would provide context there) so it's really hard for me to take anything away from it, other than it is a very interesting perspective that I don't fully agree with but want to hear more about.

 

Agree with this.  I haven't seen her story yet or her full opinion...yet.  So I won't worry about until I see it in game.

[Sylentmana]

I think Vivienne is has some good points, but ultimately constitutes only one perspective. She most likely grew up in a tower where she didn't have to worry about the Templars abusing their power as much. Really, this situation was bound to happen eventually. The setup with the circle is pretty much an inverted version of the Tevinter rule. Mages used to oppress everyone and control them. Now everyone oppresses the mages and controls them.

[Mentxi]

Yeah, sure, Vivienne, a person that has more privileges than anyone. How easy is for her to say they are childish when she didn't see the situation in Kirkwall...the gallows were horrible and I didn't hear anything from her. I hope I'm wrong.

[Aolbain]

Yeah, sure, Vivienne, a person that has more privileges than anyone. How easy is for her to say they are childish when she didn't see the situation in Kirkwall...the gallows were horrible and I didn't hear anything from her. I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the intolerable conditions imposed by the Templars,

[efd731]

I think Vivienne is has some good points, but ultimately constitutes only one perspective. She most likely grew up in a tower where she didn't have to worry about the Templars abusing their power as much. Really, this situation was bound to happen eventually. The setup with the circle is pretty much an inverted version of the Tevinter rule. Mages used to oppress everyone and control them. Now everyone oppresses the mages and controls them.

but she didnt, she made herself an independant power through sheer will skill and determination. she was almost in charge of the circles and was an advisor to the nobility of matters of magic. she proved that with effort you could make something of yourself and earn a degree of freedom as a mage. even disregarding that, how on earth will the mages not oppress those around them now? they cant hunt, or farm or fish they'll be little better that fireball flinging bandits to the average thedosian lol

[Kleon]

Looks like Vivenne stance on circle is similar to Wynne's in Asunder. However, I do get an impression that Vivienne wants everything to go back as it was and Wynne wanted gentle actions that would slowly change common views on magic and mages. 

 

Why am I not surprised that she got a view on the Inquisitor's throne from her bed. 

[Chernaya]

I think that while she does have a point, it's not completely thought out, it lacks perspective. The whole "you're taken care of, why are you complaining you spoiled brats" approach is weird to me. So what if they are taken care of, does that mean they should be okay with having their freedom stripped from them, the inability to live a normal life, and being forced to either face a near-death experience or be turned into an emotionless husk (sometimes even against their will)? Not to mention all we've heard about the Templars abusing their powers and doing questionable things to mages in the Circles everywhere. Some people would rather take the risk dying to fight against that, so that's what happens. Not everyone is going to just accept that kind of fate.

 

Even though that's my personal opinion on the matter, my first character will be a semi pro-circle mage, so she'll probably get along with Vivienne. At the same time, I hope I can bring up those points to her. If not with that character, than with a more pro-freedom one, at least.

[efd731]

Her support of the status quo is support of the numerous sanctioned atrocities that the Circle has to offer, and she apparently believes that the mages just should have endured it.

where does she say that? all thats mentioned is that the mages seeking open rebellion are Niave and lack a full understanding of how they are perceived. regardless of opinions on the rebellion itself/circle conditions, that is an accurate statement.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra: So you ignored the part where she said:  Nobles and commoners called for action?

 

Which - I am absolutely elated to say - I had said only a short time to you before the Twitch was cast.

[Nohvarr]

Her support of the status quo is support of the numerous sanctioned atrocities that the Circle has to offer, and she apparently believes that the mages just should have endured it.

Is she supporting the Status Quo...or pointing out how little thought the mages in-charge gave to the issue since they are rebelling when fear of magic is so high, reducing their potential allies, and likely cutting them off from aid and supplies they will need. They are lucky the Chantry didn't order the Templars to fight them. The Chantry's refusal to get involved is likely the only reason the rebellion has lasted this long.

[herkles]

they'll be little better that fireball flinging bandits to the average thedosian lol

 

Ah but who cares about the average thedosian. the maker made them to be opressed by us, the mages. we should be opressing them not the other way around. 

 

I know that my first character will be in major agreement with her. 

 

 

Also keep in mind what was said was just a single little convo with Vivianne. plenty of more to have in game to learn her full opinion. 

[AresKeith]

Care to expand on that or are we just throwing around vitriol?

 

The latter 

[Xilizhra]

where does she say that? all thats mentioned is that the mages seeking open rebellion are Niave and lack a full understanding of how they are perceived. regardless of opinions on the rebellion itself/circle conditions, that is an accurate statement.

It's not rebellion, it's a fight for survival against a new and aggressive polity, the independent Templar Order.

 

 

@Xilizhra: So you ignored the part where she said:  Nobles and commoners called for action?

 

Which - I am absolutely elated to say - I had said only a short time to you before the Twitch was cast.

What's your point?

 

 

Is she supporting the Status Quo...or pointing out how little thought the mages in-charge gave to the issue since they are rebelling when fear of magic is so high, reducing their potential allies, and likely cutting them off from aid and supplies they will need. They are lucky the Chantry didn't order the Templars to fight them. The Chantry's refusal to get involved is likely the only reason the rebellion has lasted this long.

What was the alternative? Let the templars continue to grind them down?

[Who Knows]

It is easy for someone of such privilege (for a mage in the circle) to say that the other mages should just deal with their circumstances.

I do not like her whatsoever.

[Medhia_Nox]

Mage 1:  Hey, because of Anders (who killed HUNDREDS of people... it's now confirmed) - the people hate us even MORE!  Now even fewer commoners will support us.

 

Mage 2:  OMG - perfect time for a rebellion! 

 

Mage 1:  Wait - do we know how to forage for food?  Put up a tent?  Cook?  Sleep on anything but our soft beds?  Resist the elements?  NO?  LET'S REBEL! YAY!

 

It truly is as if modern teens planned a rebellion against their parents. 

[efd731]

The latter 

hahahahah i was gonna say, first time meeting Xil?

[AresKeith]

It is easy for someone of such privilege (for a mage in the circle) to say that the other mages should just deal with their circumstances.

I do not like her whatsoever.

 

Even though that isn't what she said 

[Sylentmana]

but she didnt, she made herself an independant power through sheer will skill and determination. she was almost in charge of the circles and was an advisor to the nobility of matters of magic. she proved that with effort you could make something of yourself and earn a degree of freedom as a mage. even disregarding that, how on earth will the mages not oppress those around them now? they cant hunt, or farm or fish they'll be little better that fireball flinging bandits to the average thedosian lol

Just because she was able to climb the mage ranks and gain power doesn't mean she had a difficult time with the Templars, especially not as difficult as those in Kirkwall. As far as making a living for themselves, I'd imagine they would do what mages and wizards from other fantasy worlds do to make a living: sell spells, enchant items, act as mercenaries, adventure for themselves, learn a trade beyond magic, etc.

[AshenEndymion]

So what if they are taken care of, does that mean they should be okay with having their freedom stripped from them, the inability to live a normal life, and being forced to either face a near-death experience or be turned into an emotionless husk (sometimes even against their will)? Not to mention all we've heard about the Templars abusing their powers and doing questionable things to mages in the Circles everywhere. Some people would rather take the risk dying to fight against that, so that's what happens. Not everyone is going to just accept that kind of fate.

 

I honestly don't think Vivienne has a problem with the mages who fight against oppression.  They were minuscule in number, and they would be dealt with, regardless.  She seems more bitter and angry that the minority of mages unilaterally declared the Circle system no more, and essentially, made all mages an enemy to Thedas.

 

It's rather telling that the facts are that Anders blew up a chantry, and the mages complained about the new restrictions because of that action, rather than complain about the fact that Anders blew up a chantry...

[Medhia_Nox]

Now all I need is for Dorian to start cracking up about how stupid the mages were for allowing all their knowledge to be destroyed and how a Tevinter mage would endure any amount of suffering for knowledge and power... and I'll start believing I secretly wrote this game.

 

Solas will be like:  "Um, yeah I was like free forever man... it's like.. not so hard. " 

 

It's amazing how - because she doesn't support the rebellion - she MUST be privileged and ignorant to mage suffering.

 

People literally cannot even contemplate whether their viewpoint is biased and not completely accurate.

[Nohvarr]

It's rather telling that the facts are that Anders blew up a chantry, and the mages complained about the new restrictions because of that action, rather than complain about the fact that Anders blew up a chantry...

Needs to be said again.

[DarthAleas]

I think it's all a matter of point of view. Of course, the idea of rebelling mages wouldn't please her as she is (was?) First Enchanter of a Circle herself. I kind of get her point, even if I (or, more particularly, my planned Libertarian Inquisitor) don't particularly agree with her.

 

Honestly, I just hope it's not just black and white with her and that she'll see my own opinion as a matter of discussion or even debate instead of just saying I'm completely wrong. This could actually lead to great dialogues with her. I like Vivienne very much; much more than I thought possible, to be honest (but I think Indira Varma has a lot to do with my change of heart ).