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[The Baconer]

I can understand where she and other pro-circle mages are coming from, to an extent.  But clearly none of them witness the likes of Meredith or Lambert.  Idc how good you have it originally, you're gonna rebel against psychopathic murderers deciding your fate.  Even Wynne saw that in the end.  

 

This is where I am still confused.  Vive is the head of the Orlesian circle now, yes?  Where the hell was she when Lambert was in town?  That wasn't long before the game... 

 

What did Lambert even do that was remotely comparable to Meredith?

[SgtSteel91]

Are the mages fighting to run around and do whatever they want? I thought they wanted the Circles but without Chantry oversight.

[mandro]

While I'm pro-circle I think that the whole argument that mage rule is going to lead to another tevinter laughable. There is so much more culturally diffrent then just mages varying degree of rights between the countries. That's like saying that the only diffrence between Ferelden and Orlais is the Bards. They are an important part of the diffrence not only in themselves but what they signify but Ferelden with bards would still not be orlais. We know very little of tevinter since it's both far away the games and seen as the enemy for most of Thedeas. The things we know seemes to be that they have a goth chantry (black divine), mage rule, and slavery. How about slavery being the thing that went all wrong? Slavery meant lessened worth of life, leeds to more sacrifice since why not if it's only property leeds to blood magic rule and all the nasty stuff. Yes I know that this is as flawed thinking as magic being the only diffrence but can you see what I mean with simplefying things

 

 

None. I said it was an option, I never said it was an option that would be likely to happen far from it. But it is an option that they could try for. Almost certainly fail, yes, but it is still a possibility.

 

Of course most mages are currently feared. The actions of Anders, the two mages that tried to kill the Divine and the chaos of the templar mage war have not helped their cause. People are afraid of mages, they think of mages and the image of anders comes into their mind.  This creates problems for the mages. Also the attitude that commoners have it better off then mages as some zealous mage supporters seem to aurgue likely doesn't help earn them favor with the common man and woman. 

 

what with fereldans Braveheart approch to Orlais more strict and brutal rule they might find more sympathy than you think. This is a quote from the wiki page for fereldan "The Fereldan desire for freedom has engendered a cultural mistrust of law enforcement, and 'laissez-faire' attitudes in general". Fereldans are hardcore and besides don't the mages fight to break free from the 1% grasps and join their commoner brothers and sisters =) . I think this talk of ohh all the poor peasants are so scared and insulted only goes so far. Not everyone lives closer to a chantry priest than an apostate healer.

[Giantdeathrobot]

A thing to remember is that we get the quote without context. We don't know Viv's exact life experiences, her relations with her fellow mage at the White Spire, her opinions of the Templar, any run-ins she might have had with rebellious mages, whenever her outlook changes over the course of the game (I doubt it since she has a strong personality, but ya never know). I strongly doubt what we saw in a single convo is the extent of what she has to say on the subject. 

 

And another thing to remember; this is a medieval setting. Sure, Thedas is more advanced than most such settings in some ways (primarily gender dynamics in Chantry lands and sexual minorities which are far less discriminated than in RL) but at it's core, it's not a socially enlightened period in the least. There's no concept of human rights as we know them, legitimacy is passed from father to children, nobles care about their station and privileges, and the vasy majority (like, 95%) of the population are superstitious, illeterate peasants who sustain themselves and don't care about much other than providing for their family and living another day. That's when you're not living in the woods, in an impossibly rigid caste system that treats you as less than dirt or a ridiculously overbearing dictatorship who thinks its subjects are tools to be used. We can't exactly expect everyone to be super nice and treat their fellows excellently regardless of what or who these fellows are.

[SgtSteel91]

I think people know it's a Medieval Society, but think Medieval Societies are shitty so they try to be the catalyst for social change and 'modernizing' the world with liberty and equality by helping the Mages/elves/downtrodden.

[eyezonlyii]

Actually, you can tell someone is a mage just by looking at them...  Mages don't carry around weapons.

Not everyone in Thedas carries a weapon either. Plus, a mage can always learn.

[mandro]

A thing to remember is that we get the quote without context. We don't know Viv's exact life experiences, her relations with her fellow mage at the White Spire, her opinions of the Templar, any run-ins she might have had with rebellious mages, whenever her outlook changes over the course of the game (I doubt it since she has a strong personality, but ya never know). I strongly doubt what we saw in a single convo is the extent of what she has to say on the subject. 

 

And another thing to remember; this is a medieval setting. Sure, Thedas is more advanced than most such settings in some ways (primarily gender dynamics in Chantry lands and sexual minorities which are far less discriminated than in RL) but at it's core, it's not a socially enlightened period in the least. There's no concept of human rights as we know them, legitimacy is passed from father to children, nobles care about their station and privileges, and the vasy majority (like, 95%) of the population are superstitious, illeterate peasants who sustain themselves and don't care about much other than providing for their family and living another day. That's when you're not living in the woods, in an impossibly rigid caste system that treats you as less than dirt or a ridiculously overbearing dictatorship who thinks its subjects are tools to be used. We can't exactly expect everyone to be super nice and treat their fellows excellently regardless of what or who these fellows are.

 

...wow no  not even a little. There are diffrent types of countries (plutocracy, theocracy, feudal monarchy, absolute monarchy), there are wast diffrences in human rights, serfs vs freemens for example. Gender discrimination is also warying across the board and tolerence of other cultures, religon and magic as well. To just say that it's an medival slurp of discrimination is so wrong. Yes discrimination runs rampant but against who? Race plays no part in the qun while gender barly does in fereldan, switch and there shall be fireworks. Magic in riviain and nevarra is accepted to a great degree by the people while still existing under the chantry. People all over are very guarded about the rights they have, just not the same ones. People don't stop caring because they are poor either or Logain would have never been anything but a farmer.

[Apostate.]

Not everyone in Thedas carries a weapon either. Plus, a mage can always learn.

Besides if you have a decent understanding of your magical capability all you'd really need is a dagger.

The dagger would almost be more for show, also don't know if it counts be in the novels at various

times mages have/use daggers in the combat scenes. And most of them weren't Blood Mages too!

[Osena109]

I don't see why a mage would want to leave the circle of magi

 

1. Protection form the unwashed masses 

2.Food and drink

3. Warm safe place to sleep

4  The circle is a massive orgy  no virgin is safe

[Apostate.]

4  The circle is a massive orgy  no virgin is safe

From the Templars! Ah ha.

I thought it was somewhat stated that not every Circle is the same, has the same outside factors influencing the conditions on the inside?

For instance I'm pretty sure things weren't so awesome in Kirkwall even before you-know-who went bat **** crazy.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't see why a mage would want to leave the circle of magi

 

1. Protection form the unwashed masses 

2.Food and drink

3. Warm safe place to sleep

4  The circle is a massive orgy  no virgin is safe

A well-kept prisoner is still a prisoner.

 

The first duty of a prisoner is to escape.

[Doctoglethorpe]

What did Lambert even do that was remotely comparable to Meredith?

 

Well, you know, he did try to kill the entire Circle conclave...

 

That and he's just generally insane, baselessly accusing mages of murders, blocking research into tranquility, wanting to tighten the noose on all mages in general thinking they're better locked up in a more literal fashion just because he's afraid of them, being a religious fanatic and all that.  

 

Oh yeah and its his call that separates the Templars from the Chantry, turning them into a fundamentalist militant organization like ISIS or whatever real world equivalent you want to use.  

 

I'd say he's worse then Meredith.  She did a lot of fucked up ****, but nothing on that scale, and she even sort of had the excuse that a magic idol drove her insane enough to actually do it.  Not that that changes things.  

[Osena109]

From the Templars! Ah ha.

I thought it was somewhat stated that not every Circle is the same, has the same outside factors influencing the conditions on the inside?

For instance I'm pretty sure things weren't so awesome in Kirkwall even before you-know-who went bat **** crazy.

Am pretty sure every one was welcome to join in the orgy my  girlfriend said  female mage  can offer her self to cullen 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sylvius The Mad:  And if you don't see it as a prison?

[Doctoglethorpe]

A well-kept prisoner is still a prisoner.

 

The first duty of a prisoner is to escape.

 Right, but the first circles to rebel are the ones that weren't well kept.  They were being chained up if not carelessly being made tranquil or executed.  Its only after those initial, isolated rebellions go terribly wrong and the Templar's start going crazy in the more liberal circles that the entire organization falls apart.  

[Sylvius the Mad]

@Sylvius The Mad:  SO... you're Sten.  Okay.. I'll play.

 

Do your Ends involve anything it takes to achieve whatever it is you define as "mage freedom"?  

 

So - rape, murder, possession, blood sacrifice... all that's cool to achieve your one End? Or... no?  

Are mundanes people?  Are they worthy of the same respect and consideration as mages, or are they merely recalcitrant livestock?

 

That's an important question for the mages to answer.

 

I wouldn't deem possession acceptable.  Possession is little different from imprisonment.

[Osena109]

A well-kept prisoner is still a prisoner.

 

The first duty of a prisoner is to escape.

the first duty of prisoner is to sever there time and not start  trouble   or ill put them in  the  solitary confinement  am a Prison Guard  i don't play them games

[Apostate.]

Am pretty sure every one was welcome to join in the orgy my  girlfriend said  female mage  can offer her self to cullen 

I'm pretty sure that was like just In Ferelden...Man

[mandro]

Are mundanes people?  Are they worthy of the same respect and consideration as mages, or are they merely recalcitrant livestock?

 

That's an important question for the mages to answer.

 

I wouldn't deem possession acceptable.  Possession is little different from imprisonment.

Are there any signs that mages wouldn't consider mundanes people?

[herkles]

Well, you know, he did try to kill the entire Circle conclave...

 

That and he's just generally insane, baselessly accusing mages of murders, blocking research into tranquility, wanting to tighten the noose on all mages in general thinking they're better locked up in a more literal fashion just because he's afraid of them, being a religious fanatic and all that.  

 

Oh yeah and its his call that separates the Templars from the Chantry, turning them into a fundamentalist militant organization like ISIS or whatever real world equivalent you want to use.  

 

I'd say he's worse then Meredith.  She did a lot of fucked up ****, but nothing on that scale, and she even sort of had the excuse that a magic idol drove her insane enough to actually do it.  Not that that changes things.  

 

So Lambert is the one that broke the Navarran accord and made the templars act without chantry oversight?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Are there any signs that mages wouldn't consider mundanes people?

Should they?

 

We can ask these questions in the real world, too.  Are chimps people?  How about intelligent extra-terrestrials?  What's our standard of personhood?

 

Mages can reasonably have the same debates.  They can see that they are different-in-kind from mundanes, and that they are treated differently by mundanes.  Do the mages believe that the mundanes view mages as people?

[The Baconer]

Well, you know, he did try to kill the entire Circle conclave...

 

Uh, no, he tried to take them into custody because not only was someone murdered on the premise, Fiona called for the conclave to vote on independence, which was not part of the agreement.

 

WThat and he's just generally insane, baselessly accusing mages of murders, blocking research into tranquility, wanting to tighten the noose on all mages in general thinking they're better locked up in a more literal fashion just because he's afraid of them, being a religious fanatic and all that.  

 

His accusations (against Rhys) are not really baseless. True, they were based off of circumstantial evidence, but given that Thedas doesn't really have very advanced methods of investigation, he was drawing the same conclusions most would have in his position.

 

I think Lambert was a manipulable dullard, and a shining example of everything wrong with the Seekers, but he doesn't even come close to (Act 3) Meredith.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sylvius The Mad:  Well I don't plan on EATING mundanes if that's you're question.  Beasts of burden might have been what you were looking for. 

 

And of course they're people and this discussion is exactly why my mage would be who he is... a mage that specializes in destroying other mages to help protect people from this mentality.

 

I think in the end it will be the BSN that pushes my Inquisitor Mage to side with the Templars.

[Apostate.]

Are there any signs that mages wouldn't consider mundanes people?

There is this one place up..North a-ways....

[Doctoglethorpe]

@Sylvius The Mad:  And if you don't see it as a prison?

Then you're blind.  

 

Again, some of the circles had it pretty nice.  Those weren't the ones that made the dominoes start falling.  If you were in Kirkwall's circle, you'd have to be insane to not consider yourself a prisoner.  Worse, a slave and toy for the psychopathic desires of your prison guards like Alrik.