And of course they're people and this discussion is exactly why my mage would be who he is... a mage that specializes in destroying other mages to help protect people from this mentality.
What mentality? You say "of course they're people". Why "of course"? Why is it so obvious to you? What is your standard of personhood?
So Lambert is the one that broke the Navarran accord and made the templars act without chantry oversight?
Yes.
http://dragonage.wik...Nevarran_Accord
@Sylvius The Mad: No Sylvius - I do not have an interest in childish rhetorical conversations. There's no merit in them other than mental masturbation.
If you can't see why they're people... you would be the problem in my Thedas and our discussion would be settled when/if you tried to mistreat non-mages.
@Doctoglethorpe: How very Templar of you to have a monopoly on truth.
...wow no not even a little. There are diffrent types of countries (plutocracy, theocracy, feudal monarchy, absolute monarchy), there are wast diffrences in human rights, serfs vs freemens for example. Gender discrimination is also warying across the board and tolerence of other cultures, religon and magic as well. To just say that it's an medival slurp of discrimination is so wrong. Yes discrimination runs rampant but against who? Race plays no part in the qun while gender barly does in fereldan, switch and there shall be fireworks. Magic in riviain and nevarra is accepted to a great degree by the people while still existing under the chantry. People all over are very guarded about the rights they have, just not the same ones. People don't stop caring because they are poor either or Logain would have never been anything but a farmer.
I'm speaking mostly of Chantry lands, since that's where the Circles are. You're also overreacting, I'm not saying rights don't exist at all, but that applying modern standards to Thedas (for instance, on collective punishment or summary executions or basic human rights to everyone regardless of who they are, what race they are etc.) won't lead us anywhere because, well, the people universe very often don't follow those standards. Bioware has sugar-coated Thedas a bit, but it's still a land where the mentalities and societies are by and large very different from our own.
@Doctoglethorpe: How very Templar of you to have a monopoly on truth.
lolwut? So you wouldn't consider yourself a prisoner (if not worse) if you were locked up in Otto's dungeon, made tranquil, and then raped like a blow-up doll? Cause those are the ones that start the rebellion, the ones who cannot possibly claim to have "well-kept" lives without being utterly blind.
Okay, your right, blind isn't the right word for that. Stockholm syndrome is.
@Doctoglethorpe: Yes, of course not seeing the Circle system as a prison means I totally support Templar abuses.
A well-kept prisoner is still a prisoner.
The first duty of a prisoner is to escape.
...Right into the slums where they'll be spat on and potentially raped or killed by the social elite with the authorities not doing a darned thing to help them.
But that's obviously so much better because hey at least they're "free".
Should they?
We can ask these questions in the real world, too. Are chimps people? How about intelligent extra-terrestrials? What's our standard of personhood?
Mages can reasonably have the same debates. They can see that they are different-in-kind from mundanes, and that they are treated differently by mundanes. Do the mages believe that the mundanes view mages as people?
In a world with diffrent races the status of personhood har probably been as debated as it can be. Are elves people?, tevinter doesn't see it that way. People outside of the qun are litterally called things in their tongue. I don't think you can predict what people will see as seperating personhood from animals. Should we not destroy the dwarves because of the fact that they think they come from stone? They can surely not be people then! and for the tevinter question
There is this one place up..North a-ways....
It seemes that tevinters practice of slavery outdates it's history of since there is a date for when the mages took over but not for the beginning of slavery. Besides just because mages rule the country doesn't mean that everyone else isn't a person. I don't think that the arls of ferelden consider their freeman cattle even if they rule over them.
...Right into the slums where they'll be spat on and potentially raped or killed by the social elite with the authorities not doing a darned thing to help them.
So much better.
Not much difference to some circles actually.
@Doctoglethorpe: Yes, of course not seeing the Circle system as a prison means I totally support Templar abuses.
The Chantry hasn't done much to stop them and still without templar abuses of power the circle is plenty awful under it. What do you feel the circle should have done if not declared independence when it did?
The old system is broken we need a new one it needs revamping.
@lil yonce: I am absolutely for reform... and I am even for "fighting" - but not in the way the Circles did it. I believe this rebellion was manipulated and controlled to happen at the worst possible time it could have.
I believe Vivienne points this out - and her derision is for the Circle mages being played so easily.
Yes, changes must come and more power must be put in the hands of mages who are made to be responsible... but I truly believe that this rebellion maximizes the loses for the mages in a way that was utterly manipulated by the forces creating chaos across Thedas.
I liked a quote from Gandhi: "There is fighting to punish and there is fighting to change things".
I truly don't believe real change will come from this - I believe many Pro-Mages will be throwing rage fits at the end of DA:I. Not because I want it to happen - but because I believe it is natural (for so many reasons I've explained) and because I believe that's the story Bioware will tell.
My prediction for the end of this... is that mages will go back to the Circles. My question is whether or not they choose it... and thereby achieve some potential real reforms... or are forced back, and things are so much worse for mages in Thedas.
This has absolutely nothing to do with what I would want as a player... or character... it's how I believe the story should naturally progress from this point without bias or emotion of what is "right".
It seemes that tevinters practice of slavery outdates it's history of since there is a date for when the mages took over but not for the beginning of slavery. Besides just because mages rule the country doesn't mean that everyone else isn't a person. I don't think that the arls of ferelden consider their freeman cattle even if they rule over them.
I won't argue the Ferelden point, there really isn't any evidence to suggest the Arls would treat or think of their subjects that poorly...All the time...
I'm fairly sure however things might be much worse or atleast...hmm...strained? in tevinter simply because:
It's one thing to rule over lessers who are atleast other, fellow mages (even if the culture is absorbed in constant powerplays between mages)
However you have got to think in a society where Magic and magical ability are vauled above all else (keeping in mind this society allows/thrives off of slavery)
humans without Magic are not only looked down upon but more than likly the bulk of the slave work force... and therefore treated not-so-good.
Not much difference to some circles actually.
Actually worse before the mundanes had sympathy for them.
I'm speaking mostly of Chantry lands, since that's where the Circles are. You're also overreacting, I'm not saying rights don't exist at all, but that applying modern standards to Thedas (for instance, on collective punishment or summary executions or basic human rights to everyone regardless of who they are, what race they are etc.) won't lead us anywhere because, well, the people universe very often don't follow those standards. Bioware has sugar-coated Thedas a bit, but it's still a land where the mentalities and societies are by and large very different from our own.
Even without Tevinter (who has it's own much cooler chantry(not)) and qunari there are still huge diffrences. And I am not talking about universal human rights but local, national rights of diffrent kinds. That might actually be part of the problem now that you say it. The chantry is based in orlais and thinks that the uncultured people wiil accept what the chantry deals like their serfs and citizens but diffrent cultures don't think of mages or the chantrys rights in the same way. They treat the circles as one unit that rebells or not when really in the end it could end up every tower for themselves. And yes since it is very diffrent from our own you can't expect them to accept these practices as you think historicly we would either And Thedeas is not a land but a world filled with diffrent cultures and values. Some might accept the chantrys words and punishment, others? Not so much...
I won't argue the Ferelden point, there really isn't any evidence to suggest the Arls would treat or think of their subjects that poorly...All the time...
I'm fairly sure however things might be much worse or atleast...hmm...strained? in tevinter simply because:
It's one thing to rule over lessers who are atleast other, fellow mages (even if the culture is absorbed in constant powerplays between mages)
However you have got to think in a society where Magic and magical ability are vauled above all else (keeping in mind this society allows/thrives off of slavery)
humans without Magic are not only looked down upon but more than likly the bulk of the slave work force... and therefore treated not-so-good.
But even familys with a lot of mages still may have non-magical children, parents and siblings? Yes every slave that has magic is freed, but I think that since magical and non magical mix pretty freely (You really want to breed magical children if you can!) affection and value would fall to mundanes as well. while I think that tevinter has a higher % of mages since they can you know have sex with eachother without being seperated by templars (who doesn't want more work thank-you) but unless the diffrence is extreme it's still probably not many mages to a family.
But even familys with a lot of mages still may have non-magical children, parents and siblings? Yes every slave that has magic is freed, but I think that since magical and non magical mix pretty freely (You really want to breed magical children if you can!) affection and value would fall to mundanes as well. while I think that tevinter has a higher % of mages since they can you know have sex with eachother without being seperated by templars (who doesn't want more work thank-you) but unless the diffrence is extreme it's still probably not many mages to a family.
Huh I never considered that side of it, still at the base I would assume it'd best serve to be a lowly poor nobody Mage than just a human. I wonder how families with few Mages in their household get treated if there is a huge class division over this or if like you noted pretty even(ish) and having a Mage child is like winning the lottery.
Huh I never considered that side of it, still at the base I would assume it'd best serve to be a lowly poor nobody Mage than just a human. I wonder how families with few Mages in their household get treated if there is a huge class division over this or if like you noted pretty even(ish) and having a Mage child is like winning the lottery.
yes it probably would be better, but not you know subhuman worse not to be one as long as you're not a slave. Also Magic is genetic I think since it seemes to run sort of in families but not every mage has mage children and not every mage is the child of mages. So if you are a magister lord in tevinter you can probably bank on having a mage to take over your family but your child, a cousin, grandchild? That is pretty much up in the air I think.
yes it probably would be better, but not you know subhuman worse not to be one as long as you're not a slave. Also Magic is genetic I think since it seemes to run sort of in families but not every mage has mage children and not every mage is the child of mages. So if you are a magister lord in tevinter you can probably bank on having a mage to take over your family but your child, a cousin, grandchild? That is pretty much up in the air I think.
I recall this is the problem with Dorian mages are expected in the tevinter to have children, mage children thing is Dorian has no interest in women even if you prefer the same gender and they are okay with that they still expect children but he refuses. So that is also partly the reason he is an "Outcast" so to speak. I think after seeing the conversation with Cullen and all we have seen on him I can't wait to meet him.
yes it probably would be better, but not you know subhuman worse not to be one as long as you're not a slave. Also Magic is genetic I think since it seemes to run sort of in families but not every mage has mage children and not every mage is the child of mages. So if you are a magister lord in tevinter you can probably bank on having a mage to take over your family but your child, a cousin, grandchild? That is pretty much up in the air I think.
So in the circles any child born would be twice as likly to be a mage....who would be taken from his parents...sent to another cirlce(?)...to be a cirlce mage...
the cycle... 
So in the circles any child born would be twice as likly to be a mage....who would be taken from his parents...sent to another cirlce(?)...to be a cirlce mage...
the cycle...
Yup wynne's child was taken to another circle. They are raised in an orphanage for some time and then when they come of age they are taken to the cricle of that area which was Orlais for him.
I understand that Vivienne is saying that the Circles lacked perspective on rebelling, not thinking about the outside world, but as someone in this thread said earlier, it's because they don't know the outside world. Once a mage is taken to the Circle, that's it. No interaction, hardly any news, literally the only thing they know are the Circle and magic related things. So why would they think about a world they have no exposure to?
@eyezonlyii: And yet every mage we've ever met seems so well adjusted.
@eyezonlyii: And yet every mage we've ever met seems so well adjusted.
to be fair, the mages we've met are the ones allowed to leave, so they would have a wider perspective i would assume.
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