1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigdoser]

I understand that Vivienne is saying that the Circles lacked perspective on rebelling, not thinking about the outside world, but as someone in this thread said earlier, it's because they don't know the outside world. Once a mage is taken to the Circle, that's it. No interaction, hardly any news, literally the only thing they know are the Circle and magic related things. So why would they think about a world they have no exposure to?

Hence why I role played my mage as someone who was slightly confused about a few things about the outside world. Hence why as soon as he met Duncan he bombarded with him questions. Hell morrigan did not understand the value of handshaking. XD

 

Its quite a crazy thought considering if you are locked up in a tower for your whole life plus if you were taken there as a child I assume mages like those get confused about a few things or don't think about certain values the outside may hold or what they think of them. As eyezonlyii said some may have been allowed to leave for circle business at times. 

 

The words of the demon at the end of his harrowing made him a bit more "Pragmatic" after he got into the role of being a grey warden. 

[Apostate.]

Yup wynne's child was taken to another circle. They are raised in an orphanage for some time and then when they come of age they are taken to the cricle of that area which was Orlais for him. 

I read that book haha I think? Rhy's wasn't it?

But damn I didn't read the book thinking he had an Orlesian accent.... ugh.. poor reading comprehension on my part.

So do children of mages automatically go to the Chantry Cirlce when the come of age like a guilty until proven inoc- not capable of magic?

Or do the children still have to show some sort of magical ability before being sent away?

[eyezonlyii]

Hence why I role played my mage as someone who was slightly confused about a few things about the outside world. Hence why as soon as he met Duncan he bombarded with him questions. Hell morrigan did not understand the value of handshaking. XD

 

Its quite a crazy thought considering if you are locked up in a tower for your whole life plus if you were taken there as a child I assume mages like those get confused about a few things or don't think about certain values the outside may hold or what they think of them. 

Which kind of leads into my gameplay wish. I want there to be a larger gulf between a Circle mage and an apostate. Something small like combat style or something. At least the illusion of it. Let there be a second weapon for mages like warriors and rogues have, or at least let there be a martial tree for apostates to wield theirs staves in.

[Medhia_Nox]

@eyezonyii:  So mages are allowed to leave, but mages aren't allowed to leave.  I'm so confused.

 

Yes, I actually know what you're getting at - but my point is, is that the idea that "mages aren't allowed to leave" is inaccurate.

 

Mages aren't allowed to just walk out of the Tower.  True.

 

But with special dispensation which - as you point out - is very common obviously.  Not only are they allowed to leave, but they're allowed to leave without supervision.

[Bigdoser]

I read that book haha I think? Rhy's wasn't it?

But damn I didn't read the book thinking he had an Orlesian accent.... ugh.. poor reading comprehension on my part.

So do children of mages automatically go to the Chantry Cirlce when the come of age like a guilty until proven inoc- not capable of magic?

Or do the children still have to show some sort of magical ability before being sent away?

Yeah Rhys mentions he has an Orlesian accent, well I think as they grow up it becomes pretty obvious if they can use magic or not I assume as they grow they do various tests or have the child watched as they grow up.

 

edit:Problem is its very rare for a mage to leave the tower its either on cricle business and they normally only send enchanters for those or war. Even then they don't send that many mages going by the conversation in the Magi origin. 

 

I think they sent like 10 mages to ostagar? I think it was 10 or 8? Can't exactly remember. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Apostates:  Children of mages would be taken, yes.  Children of mundanes suspected of magic are also taken. 

 

Parents would be the worst teachers of a gift that relies on emotions.

 

I'm not pro-theft of children.  However - I am very much pro-parents couldn't possibly raise their own mage children because it's a recipe for disaster.

 

Children don't show signs of magic till later... so taking a baby is mindless cruelty.  But every mage parent should prepare their child for the time when they're tested and, if they show signs of magic, are sent off to a different Circle for training.  Visitations of course should be given.

 

Note:  The parents never visit their kids at Hogwarts either and the kids aren't just allowed to leave.  Hogwarts: Prison of the Damned!

[Apostate.]

Where is the stronghold being used by the Mages in Asunder located? Does anyone know the time lapse between Asunder's ending with the

Spoiler

Vote on like hey man are we gonna fight back or what?

and the start of DA:I? If Rhy is still alive I wonder if he'll

Spoiler

Die super early

I also wonder if Cole will mention him if the PC is a Mage.

[Medhia_Nox]

Andoral's Reach?  It's at the ass end of Orlais.

[wcholcombe]

Actually according to several accounts from both the games and the books, prior to Kirkwall mages were able to leave the tower on their own quite regularly.


--In DAO Wynne is allowed to leave without templars and it is the 1st enchanters call not Gregoirres.
--In Stolen Throne mages come after Maric and are in fact commanding soldiers
--In The Calling the mages in the tower leave on their own without templars.
--In DAO Irving writes about leaving and taking the senior mages away from the tower for a retreat. He doesn't mention needing to clear it with Gregoire.
--In Asunder Rhys talks about previously being able to leave the tower to go shopping in the city like it wasn't any big deal. He also talks about going to tevinter with his master as an apprentice with no templar escorts.


So just because they are cracking down now doesn't mean this is the norm.

[Medhia_Nox]

@wcholcombe:  It's really just an example of how the forums distort what goes on in canon material - like so much of the reactionary vitriol.

[Apostate.]

Actually according to several accounts from both the games and the books, prior to Kirkwall mages were able to leave the tower on their own quite regularly.


--In DAO Wynne is allowed to leave without templars and it is the 1st enchanters call not Gregoirres.
--In Stolen Throne mages come after Maric and are in fact commanding soldiers
--In The Calling the mages in the tower leave on their own without templars.
--In DAO Irving writes about leaving and taking the senior mages away from the tower for a retreat. He doesn't mention needing to clear it with Gregoire.
--In Asunder Rhys talks about previously being able to leave the tower to go shopping in the city like it wasn't any big deal. He also talks about going to tevinter with his master as an apprentice with no templar escorts.


So just because they are cracking down now doesn't mean this is the norm.

I was under the impression this was for only Mages of stature or high ranking.

I don't think the avereage Mage even after the harrowing would be allowed free/easy access to the near city.

There was always a misturst of Mages....the Religion practically encourages it.

[Bigdoser]

Actually according to several accounts from both the games and the books, prior to Kirkwall mages were able to leave the tower on their own quite regularly.


--In DAO Wynne is allowed to leave without templars and it is the 1st enchanters call not Gregoirres.
--In Stolen Throne mages come after Maric and are in fact commanding soldiers
--In The Calling the mages in the tower leave on their own without templars.
--In DAO Irving writes about leaving and taking the senior mages away from the tower for a retreat. He doesn't mention needing to clear it with Gregoire.
--In Asunder Rhys talks about previously being able to leave the tower to go shopping in the city like it wasn't any big deal. He also talks about going to tevinter with his master as an apprentice with no templar escorts.


So just because they are cracking down now doesn't mean this is the norm.

So how many of those people were enchanters? You would not put a mundane mage in a command position what we know and shown in the games its normally enchanters or higher that normally get those privileges. 

[wcholcombe]

When Rhys was still an apprentice he went to tevinter with his master without any templars so that doesn't seem like high ranking only. As an apprentice Ryhs wouldn't even be harrowed.


The rest seem to be after harrowed but still not necessarily high ranking mages only.

[Medhia_Nox]

There are also two apprentices in Denerim - and one at the entrance to Orzamaar.

 

Wilhelm lived in Honnleath - so we know mages can be given special dispensation to leave.

 

Ines and Finn were allowed to leave.

 

But a million mage examples wouldn't change the minds of people rebellion on the platform of the Circles as prisons.

[lil yonce]

@lil yonce:  I am absolutely for reform... and I am even for "fighting" - but not in the way the Circles did it.  I believe this rebellion was manipulated and controlled to happen at the worst possible time it could have.

 

I believe Vivienne points this out - and her derision is for the Circle mages being played so easily. 

 

Yes, changes must come and more power must be put in the hands of mages who are made to be responsible... but I truly believe that this rebellion maximizes the loses for the mages in a way that was utterly manipulated by the forces creating chaos across Thedas. 

 

I liked a quote from Gandhi:  "There is fighting to punish and there is fighting to change things". 

 

I truly don't believe real change will come from this - I believe many Pro-Mages will be throwing rage fits at the end of DA:I.  Not because I want it to happen - but because I believe it is natural (for so many reasons I've explained) and because I believe that's the story Bioware will tell.

 

My prediction for the end of this... is that mages will go back to the Circles.  My question is whether or not they choose it... and thereby achieve some potential real reforms... or are forced back, and things are so much worse for mages in Thedas. 

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I would want as a player... or character... it's how I believe the story should naturally progress from this point without bias or emotion of what is "right".

Since I know some spoilers about the game, I don't think that's the case - things don't add up that way to me - but I suppose we'll see in November. And big time change in some areas seems to be a central theme if we can go by Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt, Flemeth in DA2 and even some of the DAI promotion material.

 

I don't think the mages' goal was to eliminate the circles but rather to get them away from the templars because the vote at Andoral's Reach was on separation and not dissolution. I don't think the mages will have much problem with returning to their towers. The problem would be if the templars are still significantly part of them. Its my opinion that absolutely nothing will change if they aren't at the least busted down to the simple guards they were only ever meant to be under the Nevarran Accord. And really, I don't think that should too wrangle because DAI templars have so much bad PR.

 

I hope DAI lets you side with the mages - as in you help them defeat the templars in the hinterlands and wherever elsewhere that haven't turned to red lyrium, and from a position of strength, they force the Chantry into reforms that make the circle truly autonomous as it was always supposed to be.

[mandro]

I read that book haha I think? Rhy's wasn't it?

But damn I didn't read the book thinking he had an Orlesian accent.... ugh.. poor reading comprehension on my part.

So do children of mages automatically go to the Chantry Cirlce when the come of age like a guilty until proven inoc- not capable of magic?

Or do the children still have to show some sort of magical ability before being sent away?

 

Since the children doesn't have any parents so to speak they are raised in the chantry orphanage and prehaps kept under more strict suprevision to make sure that someone notices if he/she have magic. I think this is canon but I can't remember from where so take it with a grain of salt.

[wcholcombe]

Since I know some spoilers about the game, I don't think that's the case - things don't add up that way to me - but I suppose we'll see in November. And big time change in some areas seems to be a central theme if we can go by Morrigan at the end of Witch Hunt, Flemeth in DA2 and even some of the DAI promotion material.

I don't think the mages' goal was to eliminate the circles but rather to get them away from the templars because the vote at Andoral's Reach was on separation and not dissolution. I don't think the mages will have much problem with returning to their towers. The problem would be if the templars are still significantly part of them. Its my opinion that absolutely nothing will change if they aren't at the least busted down to the simple guards they were only ever meant to be under the Nevarran Accord. And really, I don't think that should too wrangle because DAI templars have so much bad PR.

I hope DAI lets you side with the mages - as in you help them defeat the templars in the hinterlands and wherever elsewhere that haven't turned to red lyrium, and from a position of strength, they force the Chantry into reforms that make the circle truly autonomous as it was always supposed to be.

A) The circles didn't have the authority to vote independence anyway.
The circles have never been autonomous-even in tevinter where they were created they aren't autonomous.
C) With the mages in the hinter lands behaving as they are I doubt we will be able to ally with them but its possible.

[lil yonce]

A) The circles didn't have the authority to vote independence anyway.
The circles have never been autonomous-even in tevinter where they were created they aren't autonomous.
C) With the mages in the hinter lands behaving as they are I doubt we will be able to ally with them but its possible.

Yes it did have the authority. Even Evangeline doesn't deny it in Asunder.

 

And the circle is supposed to be autonomous per WoT - the only reason it isn't is because of the heavy templar presence in the towers.

 

Well, its been said that the mage templar war is coming to a head in the hinterlands, the location is available very early in the game and its been said we can resolve the mage-templar war early on - I think its obvious we'll be able to affect the fighting there and choose a side.

[eyezonlyii]

@Apostates: Children of mages would be taken, yes. Children of mundanes suspected of magic are also taken.

Parents would be the worst teachers of a gift that relies on emotions.

I'm not pro-theft of children. However - I am very much pro-parents couldn't possibly raise their own mage children because it's a recipe for disaster.

Children don't show signs of magic till later... so taking a baby is mindless cruelty. But every mage parent should prepare their child for the time when they're tested and, if they show signs of magic, are sent off to a different Circle for training. Visitations of course should be given.

Note: The parents never visit their kids at Hogwarts either and the kids aren't just allowed to leave. Hogwarts: Prison of the Damned!

I don't see how parents are worse teachers than the people who were complicit in your compulsory removal from your home. Also we have a few in game examples of parents teaching children magic with no harm: the Hawkes, Morrigan and every Dalish keeper was a First... Uh first. So obviously the circle methodology is neither essential, nor necessary, it's just convenient.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

I should say that I never invested much time as a Mage outside of the origin in DAO and Act One in DA2. My perception on the Circles for Magi may be skewed by being an outsider (human warrior). It's easier for me to agree with Viv's perspective. Kirkwall really thru me for a loop to where I almost sided with the Mages but I wanted to take Meredith out of power. Since I found out I could take her out and side with Templars, I took that route and hoped Hawke would clear house of the horrible Templars and rebuild the Circle. Sadly, Hawke vanished and all the Circles are gone basically. -sigh- If the mages can come together with a better plan by the time we finish with the bigger threat of demons, my Inquisition will support them. If not, the Mage vs. Templar (or Chantry) conflict will have alot more weight behind the choices I make..

[AshenEndymion]

I don't see how parents are worse teachers than the people who were complicit in your compulsory removal from your home. Also we have a few in game examples of parents teaching children magic with no harm: the Hawkes, Morrigan and every Dalish keeper was a First... Uh first. So obviously the circle methodology is neither essential, nor necessary, it's just convenient.

 

The idea that there was no harm resulting from the training of Merrill, Vellana, Morrigan, Morrigan's "sisters", or the Hawke child(ren) is amusing to me.

[eyezonlyii]

The idea that there was no harm resulting from the training of Merrill, Vellana, Morrigan, Morrigan's "sisters", or the Hawke child(ren) is amusing to me.

Then please enlighten me with the punchline. Because from what I remember, Morrigan only killed templars who came after her and didn't heed flemeth's warnings; velanna was upset over her sister (previously mentioned in the thread as an elf/human conflict, not mage related); it was marethari who decided to go abomination, not Merrill, who was responsible enough to bring hawke and co; and hawke was made champion due to their efforts within Kirkwall.

[AshenEndymion]

Then please enlighten me with the punchline. Because from what I remember, Morrigan only killed templars who came after her and didn't heed flemeth's warnings; velanna was upset over her sister (previously mentioned in the thread as an elf/human conflict, not mage related); it was marethari who decided to go abomination, not Merrill, who was responsible enough to bring hawke and co; and hawke was made champion due to their efforts within Kirkwall.

 

Morrigan kills more than just the templars who come after Flemeth, but that alone is enough to constitute harm...  That said, there is little doubt the knowledge she has gained from Flemeth is going towards any goal other than one of her own making or Flemeth's making.  And unless Flemeth is the maker in disguise, that should constitute harm upon the world...

 

Velanna is angry at humans, but her level of destruction is magic-based(meaning, you don't have an entire section of the Pilgrim's Path kept from being traversed if Velanna is a single non-mage holding the area) .  And clearly the Keeper of her clan admits to failing in teaching he properly, as she's been expelled from her clan.

 

Marathari becoming an abomination is a failing on her own teacher.  It's also a failing on her ability to teach Merrill how to properly use magic, otherwise she wouldn't have needed to become an abomination... The death of their clan is a result of both.

 

And a mage Hawke became Champion of Kirkwall, and was a key player in the events of Kirkwall...  Proving, yet again, the dangers of apostate mages.

 

Bethany is the only known mage that has been trained outside of a circle and hasn't intentionally, or unintentionally, harmed someone....

[Alanosborn1991]

Vivianne needs to get off her high horse

[XEternalXDreamsX]

I applauded that leader of Merrill's clan for basically taking the bullet for Merrill. I knew it wouldn't end well. She acted like she knew 100% that sh!t would hit the fan and had Hawke and Co. follow her. Never deal with demons. The moment one of my companions say they are mingling with any demons, I will tell them to leave the party and Skyhold, if not judge them in my court. But first I will take all equipment I crafted for them.. I will not have any of that business in my inquisition. I already have to deal with demons falling out of the sky and fade rifts.