1751 réponses à ce sujet

[XEternalXDreamsX]

Edit: Double post.

[wcholcombe]

Yes it did have the authority. Even Evangeline doesn't deny it in Asunder.

And the circle is supposed to be autonomous per WoT - the only reason it isn't is because of the heavy templar presence in the towers.

Well, its been said that the mage templar war is coming to a head in the hinterlands, the location is available very early in the game and its been said we can resolve the mage-templar war early on - I think its obvious we'll be able to affect the fighting there and choose a side.

The circles were created by the chantry, how can they make themselves independent from something that created them?

Please quote me from WoT where it says circles are supposed to be autonomous.

Many of us on here have discussed the hinterlands and we are fairly convinced neither side has any leadership anymore. In fact some believe Dorian's former master is in charge of the mages in the hinterlands and I am pretty certain we can't ally with him.

[Shahadem]

Morrigan kills more than just the templars who come after Flemeth, but that alone is enough to constitute harm...  That said, there is little doubt the knowledge she has gained from Flemeth is going towards any goal other than one of her own making or Flemeth's making.  And unless Flemeth is the maker in disguise, that should constitute harm upon the world...

 

Velanna is angry at humans, but her level of destruction is magic-based(meaning, you don't have an entire section of the Pilgrim's Path kept from being traversed if Velanna is a single non-mage holding the area) .  And clearly the Keeper of her clan admits to failing in teaching he properly, as she's been expelled from her clan.

 

Marathari becoming an abomination is a failing on her own teacher.  It's also a failing on her ability to teach Merrill how to properly use magic, otherwise she wouldn't have needed to become an abomination... The death of their clan is a result of both.

 

And a mage Hawke became Champion of Kirkwall, and was a key player in the events of Kirkwall...  Proving, yet again, the dangers of apostate mages.

 

Bethany is the only known mage that has been trained outside of a circle and hasn't intentionally, or unintentionally, harmed someone....

 

Morrigan is morally justified in killing the Templars who come after her mother or herself. So there is nothing wrong there.

 

Marethari became an abomination because she was an idiot just like every single other character in that game. There was no reason for her to become an abomination, had she simply waited we would have come along and slain the demon easy peasy.

 

Velanna doesn't really do much at all. She simply makes a brief appearance on the quest while is looking for her lost sister who she believes was abducted by the human patrol in the area as the humans and the elves regularly engage in hostilities either with conventional weapons or magic or both. Again nothing wrong there.

 

Both mage and nonmage Hawke became the champion of Kirkwall because they killed insaneo Meredith and freed Kirkwall from the terrors of being controlled by a batshit crazy Templar.

 

From what we've seen, there isn't even any reason to actually believe that mages can cause more havoc and destruction than anyone else, especially considering that Thedas is about to embrace gunpowder and in a few hundred years everyone is going to be toting a machine gun and dropping bombs with the destructive force of tens of thousands of tons of TnT.

 

If you want to talk real danger, let's talk about biological and chemical weapons, or mutually assured destruction. All of which are far, far more dangerous than magic and exist in our world now.

 

And whether the Circles have the legal right to be autonomous is irrelevant because the very existence of the circles and forcing the mages to be in them against their will violates the natural rights of the mages and are therefore illegitimate.

[TheTurtle]

Morrigan is morally justified in killing the Templars who come after her mother or herself. So there is nothing wrong there.

 

Marethari became an abomination because she was an idiot just like every single other character in that game. There was no reason for her to become an abomination, had she simply waited we would have come along and slain the demon easy peasy.

 

Velanna doesn't really do much at all. She simply makes a brief appearance on the quest while is looking for her lost sister who she believes was abducted by the human patrol in the area as the humans and the elves regularly engage in hostilities either with conventional weapons or magic or both. Again nothing wrong there.

 

Both mage and nonmage Hawke became the champion of Kirkwall because they killed insaneo Meredith and freed Kirkwall from the terrors of being controlled by a batshit crazy Templar.

 

From what we've seen, there isn't even any reason to actually believe that mages can cause more havoc and destruction than anyone else, especially considering that Thedas is about to embrace gunpowder and in a few hundred years everyone is going to be toting a machine gun.

 

If you want to talk real danger, let's talk about biological and chemical weapons, or mutually assured destruction. All of which are far, far more dangerous than magic and exist in our world now.

No. Hawke becomes the Champion after stopping the Qunari in act II.

[cronshaw]

There is nothing wrong about Vivienne's opinion. She spoke the truth. Only thing mages did was to paint a huge target in their back.

 

The Chantry painted that target long ago

[AshenEndymion]

The Chantry painted that target long ago

 

The Mages painted the targets on their own backs.  500 years prior to foundation of the Chantry...  All the Chantry has been doing is ensuring said mosaic is restored regularly, so that all may see the beauty that is a mage's ability ensure non-mages live in fear for all time...

 

Though, to be fair, the Chantry has failed to do even that... What with the average person in Thedas not knowing exactly how a mage can kill said average person if given the chance...

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The Circle mages, those who have no idea about what the common folk or the rest of Thedas think of them or view their gifts....Is the Templars & Chantry's fault....They are locked up there for their whole lives...Magic, Templars & Chantry are essentially the Circle Mage's life...

 

The problem in Thedas is there is a lack of understanding. Lack of understanding that is encouraged by the Chantry since magic control and magical subjugation is one of the core tenets of their cult / religion / belief system.

 

For example, a common folk would look at a bottle of mead and not be afraid of it. Why ? Because they know what a bottle of mead is. They understand what its purpose is and to an extent know where it comes from. A common folk would look at a suit of armor and again, would not become scared of it because they understand what a suit of armor is.

 

Take magic for instance. Do the common folk understand what magic is ? I doubt it. Why ? Because they have been feed / indoctrinated by some cultist viewpoint of it, not a viewpoint that just seeks to make people understand. 

 

This in many ways reminds me of how scientists of old who were prosecuted because the Church's limited understanding of reality is against what these people discovered. Galileo comes to mind. 

 

Are we afraid or deem the Heliocentric model of the universe as heresy today ? No. Why ? Because it is being taught to people who have access to basic science education. What's more, most of the time, this subject matter is being taught in a manner that is devoid of cult propaganda & cult ideology.

 

The same goes with magic and the way it is perceived by the common people. Taking Chantry, the Qun, etc out of the equation and substituting their dogmas for scholarly explanations and descriptions of magic is the way to go. 

 

I am just surprised someone as accomplished & as capable as Vivienne cannot see this. Instead, all she has to offer is scorn and dismissal. 

[AshenEndymion]

The Circle mages, those who have no idea about what the common folk or the rest of Thedas think of them or view their gifts....Is the Templars & Chantry's fault....They are locked up there for their whole lives...Magic, Templars & Chantry are essentially the Circle Mage's life...

 

The problem in Thedas is there is a lack of understanding. Lack of understanding that is encouraged by the Chantry since magic control and magical subjugation is one of the core tenets of their cult / religion / belief system.

 

For example, a common folk would look at a bottle of mead and not be afraid of it. Why ? Because they know what a bottle of mead is. They understand what its purpose is and to an extent know where it comes from. A common folk would look at a suit of armor and again, would not become scared of it because they understand what a suit of armor is.

 

Take magic for instance. Do the common folk understand what magic is ? I doubt it. Why ? Because they have been feed / indoctrinated by some cultist viewpoint of it, not a viewpoint that just seeks to make people understand. 

 

This in many ways reminds me of how scientists of old who were prosecuted because the Church's limited understanding of reality is against what these people discovered. Galileo comes to mind. 

 

Are we afraid or deem the Heliocentric model of the universe as heresy today ? No. Why ? Because it is being taught to people who have access to basic science education. What's more, most of the time, this subject matter is being taught in a manner that is devoid of cult propaganda & cult ideology.

 

The same goes with magic and the way it is perceived by the common people. Taking Chantry, the Qun, etc out of the equation and substituting their dogmas for scholarly explanations and descriptions of magic is the way to go. 

 

I am just surprised someone as accomplished & as capable as Vivienne cannot see this. Instead, all she has to offer is scorn and dismissal. 

 

The common folk don't tend to be afraid of a suit of armor, but they do tend to be afraid of the person inside the suit of armor.  After all, the Dog Lords tend to fear(and hate) anyone wearing Orlesian armor... And it's not out of ignorance or a lack of understanding of Orlesian armor makers...

 

People may fear magic out of ignorance...  But if you take away that ignorance of magic, most people would still fear mages.  And the prior 3000 years in Thedas show that they would have every right to do so.

[GrayTimber]

I don't think she'll be staying on the team for very long, if that says enough.

[MissOuJ]

Marethari became an abomination because she was an idiot just like every single other character in that game. There was no reason for her to become an abomination, had she simply waited we would have come along and slain the demon easy peasy

 

I agree with most of your post, but this is not how that would've gone down. The demon was bound to the relic, and the only way to kill it was to let it out or force it out. Marethari tried to kill the demon in the Fade (if memory serves) and realized she couldn't it there, so she had to get the demon unbound so it could be killed - which is in fact what the demon wanted, too. So letting herself to become possesed was the safest and easiest way to save Merrill. She, quite literally, cared about Merrill more than she cared about the safety of the rest of the Clan.

 

That makes her a lousy Keeper, IMO, but not a stupid one.

[sylvanaerie]

I agree with most of your post, but this is not how that would've gone down. The demon was bound to the relic, and the only way to kill it was to let it out or force it out. Marethari tried to kill the demon in the Fade (if memory serves) and realized she couldn't it there, so she had to get the demon unbound so it could be killed - which is in fact what the demon wanted, too. So letting herself to become possesed was the safest and easiest way to save Merrill. She, quite literally, cared about Merrill more than she cared about the safety of the rest of the Clan.

 

That makes her a lousy Keeper, IMO, but not a stupid one.

 

Yes, she tried killing it in the Fade first, but it didn't work.  Forcing it into a living host was the only solution.  I don't think it's fair to say she cared about Merrill more than the safety of the rest of her Clan though.  What would have been easier really?  Merrill was a young, vital mage, she was an old one.  She knew Merrill would eventually be coming up there to free it.  This required no foresight, Merrill was obsessed, it was an inevitability, and exactly what happened.  She probably weighed stopping a demon possessed Marethari vs a demon possessed Merrill and gambled that her clan would be able to more effectively dispatch herself.

 

Would the clan lose more with her death vs Merrill's?  Considering Merrill was on the fast track to pariah, yes.  Perhaps Marethari hoped this would force Merrill back to the clan while educating Merrill on the foolishness of trusting a demon's words.  Now they have no Keeper, and no First to take over, but they will find another Dalish clan and another to take the Keeper's place.  They will be fine regardless.  Were her concerns more on Merrill than the clan?   I'm not as convinced, though I know she loved Merrill more.  It's hard to add weight to a comment by an NPC who is already feeling the sting of 'sibling rivalry' with a "Mother always loved her best" type of comment.

 

She took a gamble, that Hawke and Merrill would stop her and it worked, her clan was saved, Merrill included, but she didn't realize how it would end, which was not quite the way I suspect she was hoping for.  

 

This didn't make her a lousy Keeper, IMO since her job was to protect all of her clan and she did so, paying the ultimate price to do so.

 

She made a lot of mistakes, I just feel this wasn't one of them.

 

[Burricho]

The circles were created by the chantry, how can they make themselves independent from something that created them?

Please quote me from WoT where it says circles are supposed to be autonomous.

Many of us on here have discussed the hinterlands and we are fairly convinced neither side has any leadership anymore. In fact some believe Dorian's former master is in charge of the mages in the hinterlands and I am pretty certain we can't ally with him.

I highly doubt that the you won't choose sides in the mage templar conflict. In a game all about choice and consequence... no. Also, Alexias is freaking insane, I don't think any normal mages would follow him and he is the leader of the venatori, which is seperate from the mage templar conflict.

[Burricho]

The common folk don't tend to be afraid of a suit of armor, but they do tend to be afraid of the person inside the suit of armor.  After all, the Dog Lords tend to fear(and hate) anyone wearing Orlesian armor... And it's not out of ignorance or a lack of understanding of Orlesian armor makers...

 

People may fear magic out of ignorance...  But if you take away that ignorance of magic, most people would still fear mages.  And the prior 3000 years in Thedas show that they would have every right to do so.

Not really. If mages were free, it's highly unlikely that mages would suddenly establish a dictatorship over all of Thedas. The mages in tevinter are insane, power hungry despots. Knight commander meredith was an insane, power hungry despot. Being a mage doesn't have anything to do with it, and the tevinter view is not one shared by many.

[Eivion]

Vivienne's Speech might have been Smug and a bit arrogant, but I wouldn't call it Self-Ignorant. Compared to the mages fighting in the war, she has a better idea of the big picture, and all the problems it's going to cause, and how the actions of the Mages in the past few years have led to the war (Not to imply that the Templars are blameless by any means. Both sides are at fault). And the loss of her power might have made her biased, she's a high ranking member of the Inquisition now, so she's now in a new position of power. I think its unfair to say she only holds these beliefs because she's bitter, Listening to her speech, she actually seemed to believe that the Circle should be restored.

 

She understands that this War might grant Mages their freedom, but that everyone will pay the cost for it; Freedom or no.

I was talking more her complete ignoring of the Mages' plight due to her good postion. Wynne had similar problems in Asunder where she seemed either ignorant or delusional to how bad the problems between the Mages and Templars had gotten and believed everything could be fixed with hard work. In truth opportunities like Wynne's were rare and few and she pretty much ended up glossing over the things like false imprisonment, murder, tranquility, rape, etc. Vivienne's speech pretty much denied all of this as well with her trying to push the mages as simple rebellious children because the Templars got a little mean. Her speech was absolutely full of bitterness and denial of reality likely because she had it good.

[wcholcombe]

Not really. If mages were free, it's highly unlikely that mages would suddenly establish a dictatorship over all of Thedas. The mages in tevinter are insane, power hungry despots. Knight commander meredith was an insane, power hungry despot. Being a mage doesn't have anything to do with it, and the tevinter view is not one shared by many.

And what happens to mages all the time in Thedas? In every DA book, in every DA game and in all the lore?

Mages become abominations. No it isn't all mages, but it is a healthy number and no it isn't all because of templars.

The lore talks about prior to the circles and the templars mages often became abominations or just went mad. One of the top reasons for the original inquisition was the danger and damage caused by mages.

There is a very real reason people fear mages and magic in Thedas and it has nothing to do with the religion of the chantry.

[Medhia_Nox]

I'm sorry - but I fear anyone who is a "gun nut" in real life.  Not crippling fear - but I'm wary of anyone who loves weapons and I generally won't want you anywhere near me. 

 

So it is with mages who choose to study violent spells.  

 

If mages were so innocent - they'd stop studying ways to kill everyone.  My point is that there are tangible reasons to be wary of (or even fear) mages.  

 

These "shut ins" have no reason to study violent spells - that the Circles allow it boggles the mind and speaks volumes about this preposterous "lack of freedom" notion.

 

You don't give inmates weapons.  

 

And this is totally ignoring the "any minute I could be taken over by the demons I attract to me like moths to a flame". 

[wcholcombe]

I was talking more her complete ignoring of the Mages' plight due to her good postion. Wynne had similar problems in Asunder where she seemed either ignorant or delusional to how bad the problems between the Mages and Templars had gotten and believed everything could be fixed with hard work. In truth opportunities like Wynne's were rare and few and she pretty much ended up glossing over the things like false imprisonment, murder, tranquility, rape, etc. Vivienne's speech pretty much denied all of this as well with her trying to push the mages as simple rebellious children because the Templars got a little mean. Her speech was absolutely full of bitterness and denial of reality likely because she had it good.

All indications are that the rape, murder, and mass use of tranquility in circles were just as rare as Wynnes position until very recently. Also, when you have arguably the most powerful person on Thedas, the Divine, picking up your banner isn't the time to be throwing everything away in a hissy fit.

[Medhia_Nox]

@wcholchombe:  This is exactly why I think the rebellion was manipulated.

 

The Divine was on our side... but there were mages that pushed precisely because THAT would have meant they didn't get their vengeance. 

 

The world was moving toward understanding regardless of the fear Anders put into the hearts and minds of the common people - and the mages have just undone anything people have carefully worked for to get mages greater privilege.  

Bioware has made it very clear.  People fear mages MORE now than they have in a long time.  

 

I really think the Pro-Mages are in for a nasty shock when they find what fruit their rebellion has sown for mages in Thedas. 

 

For myself - I think it's the fault of the characters in game that pushed for the conflict.  As a mage I will place the blame on them - as my Inquisition tries to rectify all the damage they've done.

[Ryriena]

one could just do the registration thing. Every person who is born a mage gets a phylactory made, then they spend the first few years of their lives in a boarding school like situation, with breaks to see their families every so often. Then as they grow older, more options made available: military service, court appointments, and the like. There could even be a branch in smaller villages and such to station a mage or two as healers or whatever with a complement of Templars as well.

Show us your paper please in another words I hate to bring up Godwin laws here but the Nazis did that with the Jews and looked how that turned out.

[Flog the Undying]

I wonder how Vivienne will get on with Qunari/Elven mage inquisitors, as they are apostates.

[Lebanese Dude]

I'm sorry - but I fear anyone who is a "gun nut" in real life.  Not crippling fear - but I'm wary of anyone who loves weapons and I generally won't want you anywhere near me. 
 
So it is with mages who choose to study violent spells.  
 
If mages were so innocent - they'd stop studying ways to kill everyone.  My point is that there are tangible reasons to be wary of (or even fear) mages.  
 
These "shut ins" have no reason to study violent spells - that the Circles allow it boggles the mind and speaks volumes about this preposterous "lack of freedom" notion.
 
You don't give inmates weapons.  
 
And this is totally ignoring the "any minute I could be taken over by the demons I attract to me like moths to a flame".

The analogy isn't applicable in this case. Mages cannot be disarmed in any way except via an extreme case of Tranquility, which

Spoiler

isn't even a permanent solution as it can be reversed

Young children are capable of manifesting an aptitude for magic in the form of primal and elemental magic. Many stories you hear or read are about some kid burning their bully's hair or setting their entire house on fire.

This means that mages are capable of summoning destructive magic intentionally of not. If they are not taught to control that form of magic, it can easily backfire on them and lead to fatalities.

And you can't just say that the risk of not teaching them to control magic is worth it, unless you believe that mages' lives are irrelevant. A little cruel no?

[wcholcombe]

Well I imagine most of them die at the beginning of the game. Which is why except for the red templars I am not certain there is much leadership or organization to the mage templar sides of the war.

[Flog the Undying]

I wonder how Viv will get on with Qunari/Elf magequisitors, considering they are apostates.

[sylvanaerie]

I wonder how Vivienne will get on with Qunari/Elven mage inquisitors, as they are apostates.

 

In all likelihood, not well with my Dalish Mage Inquisitor (my first run), but I suspect she will get along fine with my other characters. Still not sure I want to do a Qunari, but considering Qun mages are even more mistreated than Human/elven ones are in the Circles, my Tal Vashoth might share some of her views.  In fact she might point out, at least those rebels still have a tongue to argue with, and not be blinded/crippled and bound to an Arvaraad (sp?) by a device enforcing obedience (similar to the golem control rods) or an indoctrination so miserably confining that death is preferable to leaving the Qun.