1751 réponses à ce sujet

[dantares83]

just don't agree with her. looks like she will be my Sten, Dog and Sebastian for DAI. 

[Ryriena]

Not really blasphemous when she is being a pro cricle person that benefited from a system like this to say which too say I don't hate people like this is not telling the truth. When you benefit from the oppression of a another person rights, then I'll hate your guts.

[Ryriena]

just don't agree with her. looks like she will be my Sten, Dog and Sebastian for DAI.

Laughs mine was Morgian, Sebastian

[Nohvarr]

You know what....I think people claiming Vivie had it better than other mages are wrong. We've seen no proof that she's of noble blood or been granted any privileges beyond what any other mage had access to. What we DO know is that she was in line to be first enchanter and it takes no small amount of skill to earn that position. So, darlings, the more likely truth is that she clawed her way to the top in a system designed to keep mages down.

 

And for all you acting like she was kissing the Templars feet as some kind of collaborator..

 

 

[DRAGON AGE]: What was Vivienne's life like before she met the Inquisitor?

[MARY KIRBY]: She was, and still is, the official enchanter to the Imperial Court. Now, mages in Thedas can't hold political power, so the post was almost like a glorified court jester—someone to do magic tricks on command.

 

[DA]: That sounds a bit humiliating for someone with her power. How did she deal with it?

[MK]: Vivienne took the job and turned it into an advisory position for the Empress. She claimed her place as a respected, and sometimes feared, member of the court instead of as an oddity, and she got used to telling the most powerful nobles in the world what to think about magic and mages.

 

You want to know why she's pissed? She had the COurt of Orlais wrapped around her finger ready to use their influence and that of a reasonable divine to increase the freedoms and respectablility of mages across the land.....and then those arrogant, short sighted rebels screwed everything up and burned all the hard work she'd done.

 

I know EXACTLY how she feels....I felt the same way in TOR when a petulant Sith Lord RUINED an ISB operation just when I had a Hutt ready to eat out the palm of my hand.

 

You can call her abrasive, arrogant, and haughty but not collaborator.....I imagine any Templar that tried to bully her would find Their lives ruined in short order....if she didn't use their skin to make herself something pretty.

[Osena109]

Not really blasphemous when she is being a pro cricle person that benefited from a system like this to say which too say I don't hate people like this is not telling the truth. When you benefit from the oppression of a another person rights, then I'll hate your guts.

I agree but i find it  better to hate every equal so no one feels left out to make it fair to every one

[sylvanaerie]

You know what....I think people claiming Vivie had it better than other mages are wrong. We've seen no proof that she's of noble blood or been granted any privileges beyond what any other mage had access to. What we DO know is that she was in line to be first enchanter and it takes no small amount of skill to earn that position. So, darlings, the more likely truth is that she clawed her way to the top in a system designed to keep mages down.

 

And for all you acting like she was kissing the Templars feet as some kind of collaborator..

 

 

 

You want to know why she's pissed? She had the COurt of Orlais wrapped around her finger ready to use their influence and that of a reasonable divine to increase the freedoms and respectablility of mages across the land.....and then those arrogant, short sighted rebels screwed everything up and burned all the hard work she'd done.

 

I know EXACTLY how she feels....I felt the same way in TOR when a petulant Sith Lord RUINED an ISB operation just when I had a Hutt ready to eat out the palm of my hand.

 

You can call her abrasive, arrogant, and haughty but not collaborator.....I imagine any Templar that tried to bully her would find Their lives ruined in short order....if she didn't use their skin to make herself something pretty.

 

I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that she's evincing a different viewpoint from their special little snowflake, Anders, and they can't stand that.  

 

And the worst damn part about that Storyline in ToR is your IA can't even ****** about it without getting slapped down by the Sith Council.  Considering the total screw over you get by the Council, that storyline gave me a real hate on for Siths in ToR.

[wcholcombe]

Wrong. Mages thought being restricted to being lamplighters was unjust. Not to mention that it was lamplighters in service to a religion that blamed their kind for the Blights. If that's not adding insult to injury, I don't know what is.

 

Having said that, I would like to see some practical use of magic and I always imagine that my mages know such stuff. In general, they tend to find that building a house with magic is vastly more satisfying than burning one down.

 

As for why fireballs are taught in the Circle: that's because the Chantry uses the mages as weapons in their Exalted Marches.

Actually, the only recorded use we have of mages in exalted marches is against the Qunari.  The only other referrence to using mages in war is against blights and those are always only after the mages agreed to do it after negotiating something from the Chantry for their assistance.

 

Also, the chantry doesn't blame the blight on mages, they blame it on the hubris of man, the people involved happened to be magisters.

[wcholcombe]

The analogy isn't applicable in this case. Mages cannot be disarmed in any way except via an extreme case of Tranquility, which

Spoiler

isn't even a permanent solution as it can be reversed

Young children are capable of manifesting an aptitude for magic in the form of primal and elemental magic. Many stories you hear or read are about some kid burning their bully's hair or setting their entire house on fire.

This means that mages are capable of summoning destructive magic intentionally of not. If they are not taught to control that form of magic, it can easily backfire on them and lead to fatalities.

And you can't just say that the risk of not teaching them to control magic is worth it, unless you believe that mages' lives are irrelevant. A little cruel no?

the reversal of tranquility has been done once, involved someone being possessed, and the knowledge of how it was done is now lost considering a certain mage murdered the person who knew how to do it.

[Xilizhra]

You want to know why she's pissed? She had the COurt of Orlais wrapped around her finger ready to use their influence and that of a reasonable divine to increase the freedoms and respectablility of mages across the land.....and then those arrogant, short sighted rebels screwed everything up and burned all the hard work she'd done.

 

I know EXACTLY how she feels....I felt the same way in TOR when a petulant Sith Lord RUINED an ISB operation just when I had a Hutt ready to eat out the palm of my hand.

 

You can call her abrasive, arrogant, and haughty but not collaborator.....I imagine any Templar that tried to bully her would find Their lives ruined in short order....if she didn't use their skin to make herself something pretty.

And this is surprising how? Given that she said nothing whatsoever to the rest of the mages about her plans, if these even were her plans, even if they were supposed to be her colleagues whom she seems to see herself as being clearly superior to... how did she expect anyone at all to know that she had some grand scheme in mind? Again, if she even did?

 

 

I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that she's evincing a different viewpoint from their special little snowflake, Anders, and they can't stand that. 

Personal attacks don't become you, and just because Anders was right doesn't mean he has anything to do with this specifically; it's simply that the Templar Order is deplorable and needs to end.

[Nohvarr]

I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that she's evincing a different viewpoint from their special little snowflake, Anders, and they can't stand that.  

 

....why would people trust the words of a man who states he might be going crazy, and wanted to die as a method of freeing the spirit within him? Especially since when asked about this kind of thing before the merger he said:

 

[Ryriena]

I agree but i find it better to hate every equal so no one feels left out to make it fair to every one

Agreed but even I think I understand Anders and why he did the thing he does but I just hate smugness and too she seemed smug about her opinion.

[Ryriena]

I agree but i find it better to hate every equal so no one feels left out to make it fair to every one

Agreed but even I think I understand Anders and why he did the thing he does but I just hate smugness and too she seemed smug about her opinion.

[wcholcombe]

And this is surprising how? Given that she said nothing whatsoever to the rest of the mages about her plans, if these even were her plans, even if they were supposed to be her colleagues whom she seems to see herself as being clearly superior to... how did she expect anyone at all to know that she had some grand scheme in mind? Again, if she even did?

 

 

Personal attacks don't become you, and just because Anders was right doesn't mean he has anything to do with this specifically; it's simply that the Templar Order is deplorable and needs to end.

Thats a weak argument for you Xil, it wasn't like Fiona told all the mages before hand she was going to violate the agreement that was made between the mages with the divine, when the divine publicly countered her lord seeker and defended mages.  But what makes it an even weaker argument is that you don't know that Viviene wasn't discussing these plans with other mages.  The point was that between Wynne, Vivienne, and Justinia, the mages actually had a strong coalition working to improve their position.

 

And I am sorry, but the templar order came about out of necessity from the original inquisition, have they been taken over by hardliners and such, yes, but that doesn't mean they need to be destroyed. They are still needed and still have a very important role to play.

[Nohvarr]

And this is surprising how? Given that she said nothing whatsoever to the rest of the mages about her plans, if these even were her plans, even if they were supposed to be her colleagues whom she seems to see herself as being clearly superior to... how did she expect anyone at all to know that she had some grand scheme in mind? Again, if she even did?

How many people can keep a secret.....one. If she went around telling other mages her plans, they would STOP being effective. It becomes difficult to manipulate people when they are AWARE you are doing just that.

 

As for her Colleagues who apparently had access to the same information she did and went ahead with a war they are unable to win (going by the fact they showed up at the peace conference in the first place) I feel that her assessment that she is more capable than they are is accurate.

[Ryriena]

I agree but i find it better to hate every equal so no one feels left out to make it fair to every one

Agreed but even I think I understand Anders and why he did the thing he does but I just hate smugness and too she seemed smug about her opinion.

[Ryriena]

I agree but i find it better to hate every equal so no one feels left out to make it fair to every one

Agreed but even I think I understand Anders and why he did the thing he does but I just hate smugness and she seemed too smug about her opinion.

[Xilizhra]

Thats a weak argument for you Xil, it wasn't like Fiona told all the mages before hand she was going to violate the agreement that was made between the mages with the divine, when the divine publicly countered her lord seeker and defended mages.  But what makes it an even weaker argument is that you don't know that Viviene wasn't discussing these plans with other mages.  The point was that between Wynne, Vivienne, and Justinia, the mages actually had a strong coalition working to improve their position.

 

And I am sorry, but the templar order came about out of necessity from the original inquisition, have they been taken over by hardliners and such, yes, but that doesn't mean they need to be destroyed. They are still needed and still have a very important role to play.

Every last templar currently in the now rebelling Order. Surrender or die.

 

As for the first paragraph...

 

 

How many people can keep a secret.....one. If she went around telling other mages her plans, they would STOP being effective. It becomes difficult to manipulate people when they are AWARE you are doing just that.

 

As for her Colleagues who apparently had access to the same information she did and went ahead with a war they are unable to win (going by the fact they showed up at the peace conference in the first place) I feel that her assessment that she is more capable than they are is accurate.

How is anyone else supposed to know that by just waiting around enduring more templar oppression and atrocities, things might magically get better? And why is she so disdainful?

[wcholcombe]

Agreed but even I think I understand Anders and why he did the thing he does but I just hate smugness and too she seemed smug about her opinion.

Sorry, but no.  I don't understand why Anders did what he did.  Destroying the chantry didn't fix the mages problems, it only made them worse.  If he wanted to make things better for the mages in Kirkwall, then direct action against Meredith would have made sense, or using his powers to free the mages in circle would have made sense. Blowing up a chantry and killing hundreds including the only person in Kirkwall who could keep Meredith on a leash just because he wanted something to happen makes about as much sense as.....well any of the characters actions in DA2.

[Nohvarr]

How is anyone else supposed to know that by just waiting around enduring more templar oppression and atrocities, things might magically get better? And why is she so disdainful?

They didn't have to know she was doing that (though a reasonable mage could hazard a guess), all they had to do was act rationally to the available information. Rebelling when the fear of magic has increased to levels unseen since the Tevinter Imperium due to the actions of other mages, should've seemed like a bad idea. Orsino, for all my issues with him, immediately surrendered after the death of the Grand Cleric knowing how bad this looked. Had Meredith not been hopped up on Red lyrium for three years they might have avoided a blood bath.

[sylvanaerie]

....why would people trust the words of a man who states he might be going crazy, and wanted to die as a method of freeing the spirit within him? Especially since when asked about this kind of thing before the merger he said:

 

 

Yea, I can't supply a reason for that since I didn't trust him.

 

Different strokes for different folks?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  You're awfully disdainful yourself Xil.

 

Maybe... you should actually speak with her and be open to her explanations instead of already pegging her as your personal antithesis (though - I'd love to be considered your antithesis and would be honored if you had Vivienne fill my shoes in your Inquisition)

"Maybe" - JUST MAYBE - she was one of the reasons the Divine had the attitude she did about mages.  Maybe she had been working with the Divine.  Who knows if thats' true - but you'll never know if you've already got her pegged.

 

Maybe Vivienne is pissed because the Divine let the mages out trying to extend her good will... and they stabbed her in the back.

 

Or maybe it's something completely different... INCLUDING the possibility she's just an ambitious debutant.  That possibility absolutely exists... but we can't know yet.

[Ryriena]

Sorry, but no. I don't understand why Anders did what he did. Destroying the chantry didn't fix the mages problems, it only made them worse. If he wanted to make things better for the mages in Kirkwall, then direct action against Meredith would have made sense, or using his powers to free the mages in circle would have made sense. Blowing up a chantry and killing hundreds including the only person in Kirkwall who could keep Meredith on a leash just because he wanted something to happen makes about as much sense as.....well any of the characters actions in DA2.

Ok I am not going any further with this, because I don't want to derail the thread. You just don't want too understand why he killed Elthina. He killed her because of the fact she wasn't helping the mages and the fact is blowing up Meredith would also kill the mages, as both are in the building.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ryriena:  He also killed hundreds of other people - a fact confirmed by Vivienne. 

 

Has anyone ever given ANY thought to the idea that the creatures manipulating Thedas are the damn spirits? 

Creatures like Justice and Cole both had heavy hands in causing the current mess.  And we know Cole was playing Rhys the entire time. 

[Nohvarr]

Ok I am not going any further with this, because I don't want to derail the thread. You just don't want too understand why he killed Elthina. He killed her because of the fact she wasn't helping the mages and the fact is blowing up Meredith would also kill the mages, as both are in the building.

So, join us or die.....got it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

So, join us or die.....got it.

 

Or both.  Circle mages live most of their lives in a bubble.  We will likely never know how many of them fell victim to simple things like hunger or exposure.  Not to mention that talking about fighting and actually fighting are two very different things.  No wonder the MP character from Ostwick defects to the Inquisition.