1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

Who wants to bet on whether mages are going to be content to live as common folk(aka serfs with about as much in the way of rights as the mages had except without the free food, shelter, education, clothing, and protection)?

As it currently stands, mages can't even survive without either pillaging or being subsidized by an outside entity(Tevinter being the most likely candidate). Probably both will end up happening.

I doubt they would pillage things but probably be subsidized by Tevinter would be my best guest. However, I make some characters like Malchome Hawke or Wayne, or child Hawke that would know, how to survive outside the Cricle. They would teach the others how to gather and hunt and do other things like cooking. The fires could be started by Runes and water cooling, just wish they had one for water damage.

[Medhia_Nox]

It is possible... that both Cole and the Baroness are actually "ghosts" in the sense that the mortals they were persisted in the Fade.

 

But no, the boy in the dungeon was a little boy and the Templars hid the body out of shame. 

 

Cole is just spirit.

[Sable Rhapsody]

I doubt they would pillage things but probably be subsidized by Tevinter would be my best guest. However, I make some characters like Malchome Hawke or Wayne, or child Hawke that would know, how to survive outside the Cricle. They would teach the others how to gather and hunt and do other things like cooking. The fires could be started by Runes and water cooling, just wish they had one for water damage.

 

Tevinter is...not necessarily going to help the rebel mages simply because they're mages.  Even within Tevinter, the mages divide themselves by bloodline, with the Altus bloodlines stemming from the magisters of ancient Tevinter.  I doubt very much that they would assist mages whom they consider uncivilized barbarians; the magisters have enough infighting amongst themselves without adding new blood to the mix.

 

If they DID help the rebels, I don't think it would be out of the kindness of their hearts.  It would be to show chaos among their enemies and benefit Tevinter first.

[Grayvisions]

I think a gilded cage is still a cage, it's obscene to suggest that luxury is sufficient justification for imprisonment and resentment. I'm hugely anti-circle and hoping that I can get Vivienne to see the errors in her logic.

[HiroVoid]

I think a gilded cage is still a cage, it's obscene to suggest that luxury is sufficient justification for imprisonment and resentment. I'm hugely anti-circle and hoping that I can get Vivienne to see the errors in her logic.

Or maybe she'll get you to see your errors.

[The Elder King]

What Medhia_Nox said. The boy Cole took The form was burnt after his death.

[Ryriena]

I agree, it would not be out of kindness, since they aren't know for that type of thing, I mean they are the ones that lied about helping elven plague victiams in the Alienage that they put into slavery instead.

[Vandicus]

I doubt they would pillage things but probably be subsidized by Tevinter would be my best guest. However, I make some characters like Malchome Hawke or Wayne, or child Hawke that would know, how to survive outside the Cricle. They would teach the others how to gather and hunt and do other things like cooking. The fires could be started by Runes and water cooling, just wish they had one for water damage.

 

Pillaging is literally a matter of survival for them. I hardly expect any of them to opt to starve.

 

 

Hunting isn't really practical unless they disperse their forces, which is in itself not a practical thing to do while the war is still being fought. The #1 location for an army to get its supplies is from the people. If the army is working on the behalf of a government, we call it a tax.

 

If they have to take it by force since the people have no interest in supporting them, we call it pillaging.

 

The mages don't have significant war funding, don't have significant food supplies, places of shelter, etc. The only practical ways to acquire them are either by taking them through force(the serfs won't be keen on donating the food they need to live through winter or letting you sleep in their homes) or by relying on an outside force to provide them.

 

I find Tevinter a plausible candidate for this because if the mage rebellion is successful, it'll be a lot  easier for Tevinter to absorb the rest of Thedas.

[sylvanaerie]

I suspect the clever and resourceful will survive.  How much of a percentage that is hasn't been shown.  Certainly some mages did better than others when freed since Ella does well if you tell her get the hell outta Kirkwall and don't look back.  Others, not so much.  The Circles were a cross section of humanity, taken at various times in their lives.  Some may know how to hunt, fish, cook and see to other needs prior to being taken to the Circle.  They will get along well enough, and hopefully teach others how to as well.

 

Some will, by necessity, be forced into pillaging to take what they need.  To die or not to die, it's really not much of a choice.  I don't condone this attitude, but I can understand it.

 

But, because they are a cross section of humanity, I imagine we will have our share of sociopaths to deal with as well who relish their freedom and murder and take whatever they want from the mundanes because 'they can'.

 

Just because they were in the Circles didn't make every mage an 'innocent victim'.  I'm sure there were more than a few quiet sociopaths among them.

Grace, Quentin, Huon...

 

My inquisitor, if given the option, will turn Skyhold into a haven for those mages/mundanes just seeking asylum from the war.  All aggressors need not apply.

[The Baconer]

Hunting isn't really practical unless they disperse their forces, which is in itself not a practical thing to do while the war is still being fought.

 

They'd probably do fine with fishing. They'd probably get a lot of fish....

[HiroVoid]

I can imagine....

 

Hunter Mage: Alright.  There's a deer.  Now all you have to do....

Newbie Mage: Fireball! *Forest fire starts*

Hunter Mage: Oh ****!

[Beerfish]

[earl of the north]

This reminds me of the 'give the Dales back to the Elves' topic in that most people here seem to have a simplistic answer on the question while ignoring any thought out reasoning of what happens next......give Mages their FREEDOM!!!!!! and then what? where do they live, how do they feed themselves, how do they organise to train up the next generation, how do they gain control of the mage children born to poor villagers across Thedas (before they are killed by those villagers), how do they protect themselves without becoming a threat to the country they inhabit, how do they deal with abominations etc.

 

Vivienne's right in her opinion (IMO) that no planning seems to have gone into what happens next.....its like quitting your job and burning your house down and then deciding what you'll do next with your life, you just dun *bleep*ed up boy.

 

Also can we tone down the persecuted mage stuff, personally I'd say the Qunari Mages, Tevinter slaves, City Elves & Castless Dwarves could do a monty python sketch upon the luxury most Circle Mages have been living in. 

 

 

 

 

Also before I get the usual anti-mage rhetoric, most of my playthroughs have been pro-mage.

[Apostate.]

Tevinter is...not necessarily going to help the rebel mages simply because they're mages.  Even within Tevinter, the mages divide themselves by bloodline, with the Altus bloodlines stemming from the magisters of ancient Tevinter.  I doubt very much that they would assist mages whom they consider uncivilized barbarians; the magisters have enough infighting amongst themselves without adding new blood to the mix.

 

If they DID help the rebels, I don't think it would be out of the kindness of their hearts.  It would be to show chaos among their enemies and benefit Tevinter first.

Very true any aid given from Tevinter would have to be taken with a monolithic size grain of salt.

 

I think a gilded cage is still a cage, it's obscene to suggest that luxury is sufficient justification for imprisonment and resentment. I'm hugely anti-circle and hoping that I can get Vivienne to see the errors in her logic.

 

I find it surpising too, it's very much like: "So you're a prisioner from birth with a very limited chance

of ever seeing the outside world. But we do supply the room and board, and your brilliant robes."
A well kept prisoner is still a prisoner, sure actual freedom comes with drawbacks but it's still actual

freedom!

 

To me it's like the American pursuit of happiness; it's more about having the chane of the pursuit then the

expectation of the happiness.... Mages deserve the chance of freedom and everything that comes along with it.

Sure nothing about it will be easy but then again thats not really the point.

[Shadow Fox]

Very true any aid given from Tevinter would have to be taken with a monolithic size grain of salt.

 

 

I find it surpising too, it's very much like: "So you're a prisioner from birth with a very limited chance

of ever seeing the outside world. But we do supply the room and board, and your brilliant robes."
A well kept prisoner is still a prisoner, sure actual freedom comes with drawbacks but it's still actual

freedom!

 

To me it's like the American pursuit of happiness; it's more about having the chane of the pursuit then the

expectation of the happiness.... Mages deserve the chance of freedom and everything that comes along with it.

Sure nothing about it will be easy but then again thats not really the point.

And ask the City Elves how well "actual freedom" has worked out for them.

 

Some people here really need to realize Thedas isn't 21st century America/Europe.

[Apostate.]

And ask the City Elves how well "actual freedom" has worked out for them.

 

Some people here really need to realize Thedas isn't 21st century America/Europe.

I'd imagine if you weren't a elven mage there wouldn't be much to say....

I could do this too! Ask the Mages in Kirkwall how circle life has worked for them.

There are negatives in everything, within those negatives there are, of course extremes...

City Elves live a crap life don't get me wrong I understand that, infact the two situations are kinda similiar:

Both groups are living under the direct supervision and company of others who at one time or another seeked to kill them.

[HiroVoid]

Casteless dwarves have it worse.

[sylvanaerie]

Considering Qunari mages have their tongues cut out, or lips sewn together, their bodies bent and chained, hobbled, their horns sawed off, blinded, bound to another's control by what appears to be an obedience rod--la Golem control rod--and if they manage to overcome all those obstacles to freedom, bound by a caste system so rigid it makes Orzammar look like a hippy commune wherein there isn't even a hope of something better and death is 'preferable' to excommunication from it, I have more pity for them than former Circle mages. 

 

The Circle mages will be fine, they at least can be free where it counts, in their heads.  Aside from Tal Vashoth, Qunari mages can't even dream about it.

[Vandicus]

 

 

I find it surpising too, it's very much like: "So you're a prisioner from birth with a very limited chance

of ever seeing the outside world. But we do supply the room and board, and your brilliant robes."
A well kept prisoner is still a prisoner, sure actual freedom comes with drawbacks but it's still actual

freedom!

 

 

Its not really a prison if you can travel around the country and then come back. That's actually pretty much how serfdom(aka how everyone else lives) works. You're tied to the land.

 

And yes, we do have documented instances of unHarrowed apprentice mages traveling, so it doesn't exactly seem to be a remote chance.

 

But let's be blunt, mages can't live as serfs in a feudal society. Because they have more power than others, including such things as mind control, it is inevitable that they'll rise to become the aristocracy.

 

If countries were able to draw them into military conflicts at will, they'd inevitably resort to blood magic, and mages resorting to blood magic on a wide scale ends up inevitably with some mage deciding they'd rather be the boss then be sent out to die for their lord's power.

 

Mages in a society that has no real way to keep them accountable for their actions is a recipe for chaos.

[Bigdoser]

Problem is the old system is broken we need a better one. Considering the choice to fight or surrender was put to a vote and the moderates chose to side with the Libertarians in that they should fight something needs to be done to improve the circle system or the same issues will just come up again. 

[Shahadem]

Its not really a prison if you can travel around the country and then come back. That's actually pretty much how serfdom(aka how everyone else lives) works. You're tied to the land.

 

And yes, we do have documented instances of unHarrowed apprentice mages traveling, so it doesn't exactly seem to be a remote chance.

 

But let's be blunt, mages can't live as serfs in a feudal society. Because they have more power than others, including such things as mind control, it is inevitable that they'll rise to become the aristocracy.

 

If countries were able to draw them into military conflicts at will, they'd inevitably resort to blood magic, and mages resorting to blood magic on a wide scale ends up inevitably with some mage deciding they'd rather be the boss then be sent out to die for their lord's power.

 

Mages in a society that has no real way to keep them accountable for their actions is a recipe for chaos.

 

Two points:

1) Being similar to serfs doesn't mean you were free or had all the rights you should have had. Serfdom was wrong. And mages aren't serfs because they lack even less freedom. They aren't allowed to marry, have children, leave when they want, or have any of the other freedoms serfs actually enjoyed that mages don't.

 

2) Mages don't really pose that much of a danger. If just a few Templars can keep mages in check, then mages aren't really that dangerous. And the fact that they were willing to live so peacefully in circles for years and years despite the fact that their freedom was being denied means that mages really aren't dangerous.

 

I guess one more point

3) Using blood magic doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you are too poor to afford lyrium.

[Shadow Fox]

I'd imagine if you weren't a elven mage there wouldn't be much to say....

I could do this too! Ask the Mages in Kirkwall how circle life has worked for them.

There are negatives in everything, within those negatives there are, of course extremes...

City Elves live a crap life don't get me wrong I understand that, infact the two situations are kinda similiar:

Both groups are living under the direct supervision and company of others who at one time or another seeked to kill them.

Yes one Circle that the rest of the world found draconian is such an apt comparison to institutionalized racism across the globe...

 

And most mages will probably believe the positives of the Circle outweighed the negatives when they realize that "freedom" in Thedas is essentially like living in the Circle only without the comfy beds,good food and armed bodyguards to keep mundane people from killing you when anything goes wrong and now they'll have to toil and slave just to feed themselves.

 

Which seems to be part of what Vivienne is saying

[Apostate.]

Its not really a prison if you can travel around the country and then come back. That's actually pretty much how serfdom(aka how everyone else lives) works. You're tied to the land.

 

And yes, we do have documented instances of unHarrowed apprentice mages traveling, so it doesn't exactly seem to be a remote chance.

 

But let's be blunt, mages can't live as serfs in a feudal society. Because they have more power than others, including such things as mind control, it is inevitable that they'll rise to become the aristocracy.

 

If countries were able to draw them into military conflicts at will, they'd inevitably resort to blood magic, and mages resorting to blood magic on a wide scale ends up inevitably with some mage deciding they'd rather be the boss then be sent out to die for their lord's power.

 

Mages in a society that has no real way to keep them accountable for their actions is a recipe for chaos.

I just don't wan't to accept the implications of Circle life if the Mages where to ever return to Cirlce....things weren't great not terrible before... but after the rebellion...

 

I have to admit I very much agree with you...here... It is almost comical to argue that Mages if forced to serfdom (is that a word?)  wouldn't resort to using Magic

in some way shape or form for an advantge. It just saddens me that Chantry dogma combined with common people's (understandable) ignorance means that the Cirlce isn't the "best" option but the "only" option and stagnat. The Cirlce (before rebellion) wasn't really ever going to change atleast not quickly, giving me the impression that any and all Circle Mages would live out half-lives with little chance of that changing in a meaningful way unless theres like a Blight or something...

[dm3565]

Two points:

1) Being similar to serfs doesn't mean you were free or had all the rights you should have had. Serfdom was wrong. And mages aren't serfs because they lack even less freedom. They aren't allowed to marry, have children, leave when they want, or have any of the other freedoms serfs actually enjoyed that mages don't.

 

2) Mages don't really pose that much of a danger. If just a few Templars can keep mages in check, then mages aren't really that dangerous. And the fact that they were willing to live so peacefully in circles for years and years despite the fact that their freedom was being denied means that mages really aren't dangerous.

 

I guess one more point

3) Using blood magic doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you are too poor to afford lyrium.

 

Let's deal with these points:

 

1) If we're going to draw a historical analogy, we're going to have to narrow definitions, especially since different things travel under the name "serfdom." Serfdom for most of the Middle Ages meant that you had to work your lord's land before you could work your own plot, and if you decided to hoof it, the law gave you a year and a day before the lord couldn't come for you anymore. Most nobles wouldn't bother, anyway, as they didn't want the headache and expense of bringing someone back who didn't want the job. 

 

An analogy that makes more sense is that of a religious order, except that the Circle is mandatory and the discipline a bit more, shall we say, terminal, if things are pushed to that extreme. The system itself is, in part, meant to preserve mages from the very real danger of becoming abominations.

 

2) Five words: Tevinter Imperium, Magisters, and Darkspawn.

 

The Circle is the humane alternative to the Qunari solution, which is to make them cattle. Sten in DAO certainly thought it soft and reckless of the Andrastians to let mages go around "free." If you have human beings, with all the attendant human weaknesses, possessing unspeakable amounts of power at their fingertips, and exposed to the danger of being possessed by demons at the drop of a hat, and you have a long history of the results of mages being unchecked, then one can understand why you might consider regulating them in some fashion.

 

3) No, they just make themselves a lightning rod for every spirit and demon that would use them like a meat puppet. Merrill thought she had everything under control, until she found out Keeper Marethari had been protecting her for years by, in essence, sacrificing her own soul.

 

Technically, you're right, in the same way it would be correct to say that people who do hardcore drugs are necessarily bad people, but how many heroin addicts are upstanding citizens?

 

Look, the Towers might not be the best system for regulating mages, and there was corruption in the system, but it functioned for centuries, and for every Anders, you had someone like Wynne. It's all well and good to cry "freedom!," but if they don't pay attention to history and don't have an alternative to the system they want to overthrow, they are going to cause a lot suffering and they may well undermine their purpose. 

 

All that said, the Kirkwall situation was a complicated one. There was a real problem with blood mages, but it was also exacerbated by the heavy-handed tactics of the Templars, yet that in turn was provoked by the problem with blood mages; it became a vicious loop. Ultimately, my Hawke stood with the mages, since his baby sister was in the Circle, the Right of Annulment was improperly invoked, Meredith was batsh** crazy at that point, and my Hawke had been trying to keep the peace as best he could. Anders's and Meredith's actions combined brought about the mage rebellion.

[Bigdoser]

Eh anders actions did not actually start the mage rebellion actually. All anders did was place the oil I recommend that people should read Asunder.