1751 réponses à ce sujet

[SgtSteel91]

I'm going to wait until the game is out. See what options are available, talk to the Leaders of both sides and hear what they want and what their plans are before making a choice.

[dm3565]

Eh anders actions did not actually start the mage rebellion actually. All anders did was place the oil I recommend that people should read Asunder. 

 

The technical beginning of the rebellion may have been before Anders, but it began in earnest after his actions and Meredith's.

[Apostate.]

Let's deal with these points:

First off I lol'd at the "Let's deal with these points" line which was followed by all the sensible points in that post, but I literally lol'd.

 

I still think if you knew you had these gifted (sometimes powerfully so) people who have in a sense limitless destructive capabilities

locked away, often against their will (I'm sorry but Joe **** bob the Ragman Apprentice fresh of the harrowing isn't going to be allowed free-range out of the

Tower) You should probably treat them better. Rather than belittle them at most every opportunity and fuel the desire for independence.

 

The Circle may be the better system Non-Mages have created for Mages but it is still a broken system, one I think is inherently flawed.

The desire for freedom, even when certain "freedoms" are already in place is a strong one left alone. Templars and Seekers ...for the most part

haven't done them selves any favors either.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  You're awfully disdainful yourself Xil.

 

Maybe... you should actually speak with her and be open to her explanations instead of already pegging her as your personal antithesis (though - I'd love to be considered your antithesis and would be honored if you had Vivienne fill my shoes in your Inquisition)

"Maybe" - JUST MAYBE - she was one of the reasons the Divine had the attitude she did about mages.  Maybe she had been working with the Divine.  Who knows if thats' true - but you'll never know if you've already got her pegged.

 

Maybe Vivienne is pissed because the Divine let the mages out trying to extend her good will... and they stabbed her in the back.

 

Or maybe it's something completely different... INCLUDING the possibility she's just an ambitious debutant.  That possibility absolutely exists... but we can't know yet.

You aren't my antithesis, and neither is Vivienne. I find her personally obnoxious and with highly distasteful political views, but I'd hold the same attitude toward an outspoken member of the opposing political party in my nation; we nonetheless have many common enemies, and I hardly anticipate us coming to actual blows.

[efd731]

^^^^^Unless viv wants to reinstate the circles, then we get to watch a Xil rant that ends with her getting thrown out the airlock lol

[dm3565]

First off I lol'd at the "Let's deal with these points" line which was followed by all the sensible points in that post, but I literally lol'd.

 

I still think if you knew you had these gifted (sometimes powerfully so) people who have in a sense limitless destructive capabilities

locked away, often against their will (I'm sorry but Joe **** bob the Ragman Apprentice fresh of the harrowing isn't going to be allowed free-range out of the

Tower) You should probably treat them better. Rather than belittle them at most every opportunity and fuel the desire for independence.

 

The Circle may be the better system Non-Mages have created for Mages but it is still a broken system, one I think is inherently flawed.

The desire for freedom, even when certain "freedoms" are already in place is a strong one left alone. Templars and Seekers ...for the most part

haven't done them selves any favors either.

 

I aim to please 

 

I think we have to remember a couple of things. First, conditions could vary between Circles. The Lake Calenhad Circle had a Templar Knight Captain and First Enchanter who shared a mutual trust and respect, and as a result it functioned fairly well (as those things go). The Kirkwall Circle was dysfunctional, to say the least, and we saw the result. Second, we had a view of a system that was nearly a thousand years old and showing its age, figuratively speaking. The cases of corruption and brutality were probably signs of what had crept in. At the very least, a top to bottom audit and some critical reforms were needed. 

 

If I could sum up what I was saying earlier, it would be a statement and a question: The issue of how to grant greater freedoms to mages is not a simple one, and what realistically could replace the Circle? I don't have an answer to either of those, but obliterating any foundations on which to (re)build didn't solve the problem. That was the crux of Viv's point, I think.

[Ryriena]

Their have been many suggestions in what could replace the circle here on the BSN. Why not instead of placing mages in circles away from their families have them be placed near their familes so the ones that want to see their relatives can easily come see them. Then, make the circles state controlled instead of being controlled by a religious order that blames them for all the sin in the world. That alone would decress sucide rates within the circle system have a outside overseer like the Guards to invesgate abuses by respective Templars
Check and balances are need in a system like this in order for something like this to work.

[sylvanaerie]

Their have been many suggestions in what could replace the circle here on the BSN. Why not instead of placing mages in circles away from their families have them be placed near their familes so the ones that want to see their relatives can easily come see them. Then, make the circles state controlled instead of being controlled by a religious order that blames them for all the sin in the world. That alone would decress sucide rates within the circle system have a outside overseer like the Guards to invesgate abuses by respective Templars
Check and balances are need in a system like this in order for something like this to work.

 

 

So instead of Chantry supervision, we have state supervision. You don't think corruption and abuses exist in the government as well?  

 

Unfortunately this just exchanges one leash for another, a worse one IMO.  I can see you're trying to come up with a reasonable solution and we may yet see this, but frankly I see just as bad in this solution.  Mages in all Circles atm are kind of united.  All believe in the maker (to some extent) and all have common things binding them.  Add national loyalties to this mix and this can only end in tears, tearing apart what small amount of unity they have.

 

And the Chantry isn't going to change the preachings of the past 800+ years to include "Mages are good guys now".  Why should they?  Especially after what Anders did.  And the populace continue to believe that "Magic = bad".  

 

As for families...well not all Circles are going to be near Joe Blow the new apprentice's farm in the boonies of the bannorn.  What about him?  Or Sally McFireball's family in Denerim who might live close to the Denerim Chapter of the Circle, but they hate her guts for blowing up little Timmy in a fit of pique.

 

These are extremes of course, but have happened enough to be of a concern.  Meredith's family hid her apostate sister from the Templars until she went all nuclear meltdown on their asses and slaughtered them.  Only Meredith escaped, and a much changed person she was indeed...

[dm3565]

Their have been many suggestions in what could replace the circle here on the BSN. Why not instead of placing mages in circles away from their families have them be placed near their familes so the ones that want to see their relatives can easily come see them. Then, make the circles state controlled instead of being controlled by a religious order that blames them for all the sin in the world. That alone would decress sucide rates within the circle system have a outside overseer like the Guards to invesgate abuses by respective Templars
Check and balances are need in a system like this in order for something like this to work.

 

1) Violent emotions are one of the primary means by which demons manipulate humans, hence their sequestration. That's not to say that having some contact isn't a good idea, but that there is some reasoning for the isolation.

 

2) I don't see how secular control is any better. How can even the best noble, acting with the best of intentions--the absolute best case scenario--not misuse that kind of power, even by accident? The pressures of rule alone will tempt many a noble and royal to use mages under their control as a trump card or blunt instrument in some dispute. Want to take over a rival lord's territory? Mages. Are the peasants getting uppity? Mages. Need to neutralize a rival? Mages. We've seen enough of secular rulers in DA to know that's an iffy proposition.

 

The Chantry's moral and spiritual position limits the kind of politics its hierarchy can play and imparts a certain amount of neutrality with relation to most of the national politics of Thedas. We do get rogue elements like Sister Petrice, but she only illustrates the point: mages would likely become pawns in power struggles and there would be no institution like the Chantry to remind rulers that they will have to face the Maker for their actions. 

 

3) The Chantry doesn't preach that mages are bad guys per se, but that magic is dangerous. "Magic was made to serve man, not to rule him." The Circle was created as a way for mages to use their power constructively and for the benefit of all.

 

4) Sylvanaerie's points are also quite relevant.

 

Personally, I would see a greater degree of self-governance among mage communities, a clearer system of appeal to the Chantry hierarchy over Templar decisions, and mage advocates in various royal courts. But those are not definitive solutions.

[Medhia_Nox]

Why doesn't lower Thedas just send their mages to Tevinter.  It gets rid of a problem - and the Magisters would probably love the new servants (LOL at Circle mages thinking they'd be free in Tevinter).  

 

OR - send them all to the Grey Wardens.  80% of them die - 20% become Grey Wardens and have a death sentence.  

 

Would be so much better than the torture of warm beds and tables overflowing with food in a world where commoners die by the thousands in winter. 

[Ianamus]

It's nice to see that she's not just opposed to the Rebellion for selfish reasons, but voices completely logical and accurate arguments against the mage rebellion.

 

And personally, I agree with her. I've always believed that public safety is more important than individual freedom so I was never in opposition to the circle as a concept.

[Mornmagor]

Vivienne is correct about one thing, and that is, just rebelling will potentially lead to an even worse situation, if the rebellious Mages do not know what they're doing, and if there is no after-plan.

 

However, she does forget some serious details.

 

First, it was inevitable that eventually it would come to this. You have people stripped of their freedom, suspended of noble titles, not able to get land, marry, have children, having the fear of they might become abominations, being made to feel that they are monsters that should be held down, enstilled with fear of being made tranquil or outright killed if they don't control their powers effectively, and that know that some Templars are just asking for an excuse to do it.

 

What do these things instill to people? Emotions, of fear and anger, which easily becomes hatred. And when are you most vulnerable to break down and lose it, or even get posessed? When you lose your logic and are controlled by said emotions.

 

These emotions, are there for life. They cannot escape this situation. It is inevitable that sooner or later, the pressure will be too much, and people will rebel. At the very least, you know you will have a lot of depressed or miserable people.

 

The Circles of Magi, is something that only works for everyone else, but not the Mages. And not forever, because of the above reasons. It's a ticking time bomb, waiting for the right time to explode.

 

And so, Vivienne calls them selfish. It is hilarious, really, because, yes, people that have been supressed so hard all their lives, care more about their freedom, especially when they know they haven't done anything wrong, but they are imprisoned because they MIGHT do. They care about their freedom, because they never felt it.

 

They are selfish, and of course, Vivienne is even more selfish and spoiled than they are. She was the First Enchanter, and lived quite the life with her position, and her balls, and her dresses and all. Of course she didn't like losing all that influence and power she had, she even influenced the nobility.

 

She is right that, without an afterplan, this is going nowhere, actually it's worse than before.

 

But, she is the epitome of an egoist. She cannot enter the shoes of another, and understand even why this was bound to happen.

 

We need a new system, something like Hogwarts, where Mages will be educated, will learn to control their power and use it for good, but will not be policed by Chantry or Templars. Magical Academies, or schools of Magic.

 

And we need a special kind of resistance magic, anti-demon magic to be researched.

 

But Circles, as they were? Good riddance.

 

Vivienne, i see you looking at that Inquisition throne from up there. Is Inquisition your new way of wanting power, so you jumped in the next big thing?

 

Remains to be seen.

[Sylvius the Mad]

"Rights" don't exist in Thedas.

That would depend on what you think rights are.

If you're like me, and you think rights are a legal construct, then you might be correct.

But if you're a believer in natural right, as Thomas Jefferson was, then it takes more work to explain how rights might not exist on Thedas.

[Ieldra]

Why doesn't lower Thedas just send their mages to Tevinter.  It gets rid of a problem - and the Magisters would probably love the new servants (LOL at Circle mages thinking they'd be free in Tevinter). 

The difference is this: as a mage in Tevinter, you can always aspire to freedom and power even if you don't have it initially, with a significant chance for success. Within the Circle system of southern Thedas, you will never be free. I'm not sure if I wanted to live in such a hyper-competitive society, but considering the alternative it's worth thinking about.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  I was mostly being a sarcastic twit.

 

I truly don't see the Circles as the jail you do.  

 

If I heard of a school where they were oppressive to their students - I wouldn't declare all schools suddenly evil and that all students should just up and leave.  I'd seek reform.

 

And the Circles need major reforms - and some questions need to be answered: Like "why" the Harrowing isn't properly trained for. 

 

- Before Anders you were allowed to leave pretty regularly (confirmed by several posters)

- You can study the most violent spells imaginable if you want (with Blood magic being the only forbidden school) 

- Tranquility was clearly not as common as some believe - Anders escaped 7 times and nobody even thought to Tranquilize him (hindsight is a ******)

- Kirkwall was absolutely not the norm for Circles before the rebellion (look at the Circle in Val Royeaux.  Adrian and Rhys got away with murder - sometimes literally.) 

 

Again - I absolutely support reform - I am absolutely against this rebellion and how it was carried out and I believe it is only natural for Bioware to tell a story of how completely horrible this is going to turn out for the Circle mages.  Furthermore - I think the Circle mages played right into the hands of the Elder One's plot. 

 

I don't think any mage who sees the Circle as a refuge - a calm in the storm - a safe harbor with like minded individuals who can assist you, if necessary, in dealing with the circumstances that might make you a threat to all around you... is blind, stupid, a traitor or whatever else the violent radicals of the BSN pro-magers would say.  

 

You know - I specifically wondered where you're concerned Ieldra.  You say you're about the knowledge of mages.  You're aware that the Circles pretty much gave up ALL their magical knowledge and items to the Templars with this rebellion yes?  There is no way that - Ferelden for example - transported that library to Andoral's Reach being hounded by Templars and slogging through the wilderness.  

 

I'm actually interested in how you reconcile the vast loss of magical knowledge. 

[dm3565]

Vivienne is correct about one thing, and that is, just rebelling will potentially lead to an even worse situation, if the rebellious Mages do not know what they're doing, and if there is no after-plan.

 

However, she does forget some serious details.

 

First, it was inevitable that eventually it would come to this. You have people stripped of their freedom, suspended of noble titles, not able to get land, marry, have children, having the fear of they might become abominations, being made to feel that they are monsters that should be held down, enstilled with fear of being made tranquil or outright killed if they don't control their powers effectively, and that know that some Templars are just asking for an excuse to do it.

 

What do these things instill to people? Emotions, of fear and anger, which easily becomes hatred. And when are you most vulnerable to break down and lose it, or even get posessed? When you lose your logic and are controlled by said emotions.

 

These emotions, are there for life. They cannot escape this situation. It is inevitable that sooner or later, the pressure will be too much, and people will rebel. At the very least, you know you will have a lot of depressed or miserable people.

 

The Circles of Magi, is something that only works for everyone else, but not the Mages. And not forever, because of the above reasons. It's a ticking time bomb, waiting for the right time to explode.

 

And so, Vivienne calls them selfish. It is hilarious, really, because, yes, people that have been supressed so hard all their lives, care more about their freedom, especially when they know they haven't done anything wrong, but they are imprisoned because they MIGHT do. They care about their freedom, because they never felt it.

 

They are selfish, and of course, Vivienne is even more selfish and spoiled than they are. She was the First Enchanter, and lived quite the life with her position, and her balls, and her dresses and all. Of course she didn't like losing all that influence and power she had, she even influenced the nobility.

 

She is right that, without an afterplan, this is going nowhere, actually it's worse than before.

 

But, she is the epitome of an egoist. She cannot enter the shoes of another, and understand even why this was bound to happen.

 

We need a new system, something like Hogwarts, where Mages will be educated, will learn to control their power and use it for good, but will not be policed by Chantry or Templars. Magical Academies, or schools of Magic.

 

And we need a special kind of resistance magic, anti-demon magic to be researched.

 

But Circles, as they were? Good riddance.

 

Vivienne, i see you looking at that Inquisition throne from up there. Is Inquisition your new way of wanting power, so you jumped in the next big thing?

 

Remains to be seen.

 

1) I think Wynne, First Enchanter Irving, and (depending on plot choices) Bethany are evidence that it isn't inevitable. Conversely, Bethany, Malcolm Hawke, and even Anders are evidence that it isn't inevitable that one will become an abomination. Yet, as Sylvanaerie pointed out with Meredith, and as happened to Ser Thrask's daughter, the danger of becoming an abomination is a real one, and the Tevinter Imperium still stands as a stark reminder of how mages can abuse power.

 

The attitude prior to the Mage Rebellion was treat magic like a keg of gunpowder. It might not explode, but that doesn't mean you don't store it in a safe place. Even the Elves, far more open about the use of magic, steered clear of blood magic and were not above killing a mage, under the right circumstances.

 

2) I would argue that the Circle did work for the mages, because whatever else, they were educated in how to control their magic; Malcolm Hawke was an apostate, but educated Bethany in Circle techniques. Moreover, they weren't distrusted as was they are among the Qunari, or feared in the same way as they are in Tevinter. It allowed for, however imperfectly, a peaceful co-existence.

 

3) Even the Potter-verse had its Aurors, authorized to use the "Unforgivable Curses" against suspected Death Eaters or other Dark Wizards.

 

4) Researching "anti-demon resistance magic" supposes that such a magic exists. Not saying that it doesn't--maybe that's something Bioware's writers have already written it in--but toppling over a system on the hope of what *might* exist is a sketchy plan.

[Mornmagor]

 

1) I think Wynne, First Enchanter Irving, and (depending on plot choices) Bethany are evidence that it isn't inevitable. Conversely, Bethany, Malcolm Hawke, and even Anders are evidence that it isn't inevitable that one will become and abomination. Yet, as Sylvanaerie pointed out with Meredith, and as happened to Ser Thrask's daughter, the danger of becoming an abomination is a real one, and the Tevinter Imperium still stands as a stark reminder of how mages can abuse power.

 

The attitude prior to the Mage Rebellion was treat magic like a keg of gunpowder. It might not explode, but that doesn't mean you don't store it in a safe place. Even the Elves, far more open about the use of magic, steered clear of blood magic and were not above killing a mage, under the right circumstances.

 

2) I would argue that the Circle did work for the mages, because whatever else, they were educated in how to control their magic; Malcolm Hawke was an apostate, but educated Bethany in Circle techniques. Moreover, they weren't distrusted as was they are among the Qunari, or feared in the same way as they are in Tevinter. It allowed for, however imperfectly, a peaceful co-existence.

 

3) Even the Potter-verse had its Aurors, authorized to use the "Unforgivable Curses" against suspected Death Eaters or other Dark Wizards.

 

4) Researching "anti-demon resistance magic" supposes that such a magic exists. Not saying that it doesn't--maybe that's something Bioware's writers have already written in--but toppling over a system on the hope of what *might* exist is a sketchy plan.

 

 

1) Inevitable, because sooner or later, some circumstances that promote the rebellion will happen together. The massive rebellion is not going to be caused by one person or a few, it's something that is build up and eventually explode, depening on how people involved behave.

 

Emotions instilled because of life long suppression are going to burst at some point. I think that, people that are suppressed, and treated that way in general, are more prone to becoming abominations, or abusing power. You can't be properly cultured and stripped of egotistical tendencies, if you can't put aside emotions that bring hatred or spite towards others, and the way the Chantry and the Templars treat Mages in a lot of situations, is enough to change these people, considering that this "imprisonment" is for life. People rarely understand how that feels like.

 

2) It partially worked then. As far as controlling their magic, it worked to an extent, but, it worked under the fear and stress of failure, which meant being made tranquil or death.

 

The education part is important, i agree, and Circle did bring that. Even in an alternate system, being educated, and learning to control the magic power is paramount to how these people behave afterwards.

 

If anything, special emotion-control training is something i would suggest even, since the "abomination-candidates", if i'm not mistaken, are usually emotionally unstable, or at least more than others.

 

And being imprisoned like that, puts more stress in these people, making them more prone to become unstable like that. Not everyone will, but some will do eventually. Something needs to change there.

 

3) Indeed, and this will have the possibility of someone becoming an abomination anyway. But there's no such thing as a fail-proof system, and at least this one is not imprisoning people.

 

4) It doesn't need to exist. Studying Demons will provide some insight about their weaknesses, and something can be developped. But without any kind of research, no one will find out. Instead of researching and expanding magic and lessening the impacts or consequences of it, people have been too busy being control freaks instead.

[The Baconer]

- Tranquility was clearly not as common as some believe - Anders escaped 7 times and nobody even thought to Tranquilize him (hindsight is a ******)

 

It's because Tranquility is not supposed to be used as a punitive measure, at least if you're going "by the book".

[sylvanaerie]

Demonology and Anti-Demon research does exist.  In Lore, in Game.  

 

It's what Avernus was doing in Soldier's Peak, before and after the rebellion (respectively) and nothing untoward happened....wait...

 

never mind...

 

and @dm3565, thanks for putting much better into words my concerns about nobles controlling mages.  I could see them even returning to such a position as Vivienne was fulfilling--a glorified court jester/court pet--before she rose to be something more.

 

Frankly, I admire the woman's grit and determination.  In her position, I'd have been pissed too.  I think most anyone else on the board would have been too, if they were being honest with themselves.  While I suspect my Dalish and her won't get along, she will probably be a staple in my human groups.

[Shadow Fox]

Demonology and Anti-Demon research does exist.  In Lore, in Game.  

 

It's what Avernus was doing in Soldier's Peak, before and after the rebellion (respectively) and nothing untoward happened....wait...

 

never mind...

 

and @dm3565, thanks for putting much better into words my concerns about nobles controlling mages.  I could see them even returning to such a position as Vivienne was fulfilling--a glorified court jester/court pet--before she rose to be something more.

 

Frankly, I admire the woman's grit and determination.  In her position, I'd have been pissed too.  I think most anyone else on the board would have been too, if they were being honest with themselves.  While I suspect my Dalish and her won't get along, she will probably be a staple in my human groups.

Honestly I think even my Dalish and Qunari mages won't disagree with her per se because frankly they lack a real perspective on the Circles in the first place never having lived under such conditions.

[Yggdrasil]

I wonder if abominations are a huge problem in Tevinter and how they deal with it.

[sylvanaerie]

Honestly I think even my Dalish and Qunari mages won't disagree with her per se because frankly they lack a real perspective on the Circles in the first place never having lived under such conditions.

 

My Qunari mage would say "So, they still had tongues to speak, weren't chained/hobbled, blinded, controlled by an Arvaraad like a leashed mabari, had their bodies mutilated...and...I just fail to see the problem here..."

 

My Dalish mage would just scratch her head, never having experienced anything even remotely like a Circle before.  

 

My Human Mage however might feel a bit more sympathetic to either Vivienne or the Apostates, haven't pinned down what she will do yet.  Regardless, she won't turn away someone who was almost a First Enchanter since she will comprehend the amount of skill Vivi is bringing to the table better than my outsiders.

[Shadow Fox]

That would depend on what you think rights are.

If you're like me, and you think rights are a legal construct, then you might be correct.

But if you're a believer in natural right, as Thomas Jefferson was, then it takes more work to explain how rights might not exist on Thedas.

Rights as we*and even Jefferson* understand them are a legal,social and moral construct*which of course will vary from nation and person to person*

 

The only natural right is that of the strongest.

[Vilegrim]

Multiple Blood Mages/Maleficar doing horrible, disgusting things to people like feeding them to demons (like Kevan) say hi too. ...That argument does not work and is stupid. Should I judge all mages by the action of blood mages?

Templars who did disgusting things where not punished, mage who did where, this tells you all you need to know really.

[Bigdoser]

I wonder if abominations are a huge problem in Tevinter and how they deal with it.

Well the situations that mages deal with in the south which causes them to give into demons are not really present in the Tevinter I think they would fear tranqulity more cause you know rival Magisters and all that. 

 

Who knows we might be able to ask Dorian about it I mean he seems like the character who can info dump us on what it is like to live in Tevinter.