1757 réponses à ce sujet

[FiveThreeTen]

I think that while she does have a point, it's not completely thought out, it lacks perspective. The whole "you're taken care of, why are you complaining you spoiled brats" approach is weird to me. So what if they are taken care of, does that mean they should be okay with having their freedom stripped from them, the inability to live a normal life, and being forced to either face a near-death experience or be turned into an emotionless husk (sometimes even against their will)? Not to mention all we've heard about the Templars abusing their powers and doing questionable things to mages in the Circles everywhere. Some people would rather take the risk dying to fight against that, so that's what happens. Not everyone is going to just accept that kind of fate.

 

Even though that's my personal opinion on the matter, my first character will be a semi pro-circle mage, so she'll probably get along with Vivienne. At the same time, I hope I can bring up those points to her. If not with that character, than with a more pro-freedom one, at least.

There you pretty much summed up my thoughts on the subject.

My first playthrough will likely be a Mage who is annoyed at this whole rebel thing because she liked being pampered, but gradually appreciate her new found freedom resulting from her privileged Inquisitor position without abiding to the more extreme mages' views.

[thedancingdruid]

 

Mage 1:  Wait - do we know how to forage for food?  Put up a tent?  Cook?  Resist the elements?  NO?  LET'S REBEL! YAY!

 

 

 

I doubt it, because most were locked in towers not allowed to go outside. Well, all except for Wynne apparently, she was allowed to travel anywhere even Tevinter.

[Gill Kaiser]

My Libertarian-leaning mage will probably butt heads with Vivienne over this.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Vivienne can have her opinion. My mage PC is gonna run free and do what he pleases.

[Lanavis]

I honestly don't think Vivienne has a problem with the mages who fight against oppression.  They were minuscule in number, and they would be dealt with, regardless.  She seems more bitter and angry that the minority of mages unilaterally declared the Circle system no more, and essentially, made all mages an enemy to Thedas.

 

It's rather telling that the facts are that Anders blew up a chantry, and the mages complained about the new restrictions because of that action, rather than complain about the fact that Anders blew up a chantry...

Yeah, it says that the mages didn't want to be punished due to the actions of one mage, which is perfectly understandable.

After all, (I would even argue) most Templars are perfectly fine people even though there are various Templars who use their powers to rape and abuse mages, making those who fight back tranquil at will.

[Medhia_Nox]

@thedancingdruid: And do you think it's intelligent for a bunch of people who have absolutely NO survival skills AND fewer and fewer supporters outside the towers... to go rogue and cast themselves out into the wilds to fend for themselves? 

[thedancingdruid]

I think that while she does have a point, it's not completely thought out, it lacks perspective. The whole "you're taken care of, why are you complaining you spoiled brats" approach is weird to me. So what if they are taken care of, does that mean they should be okay with having their freedom stripped from them, the inability to live a normal life, and being forced to either face a near-death experience or be turned into an emotionless husk (sometimes even against their will)? Not to mention all we've heard about the Templars abusing their powers and doing questionable things to mages in the Circles everywhere. Some people would rather take the risk dying to fight against that, so that's what happens. Not everyone is going to just accept that kind of fate.

 

 

 

It's akin to exquisite, gilded cages for parrots, cockatoos and other exotic birds. It doesn't matter how nice the cage is, it's still a cage. Anyone with clipped wings no matter how fine the dressing would still probably still want the chance to fly.

[Elfyoth]

Her opinnions remaind me on Wynne's...

[MattH]

Honestly, I just hope it's not just black and white with her and that she'll see my own opinion as a matter of discussion or even debate instead of just saying I'm completely wrong. This could actually lead to great dialogues with her. I like Vivienne very much; much more than I thought possible, to be honest (but I think Indira Varma has a lot to do with my change of heart ).

I really doubt it will be just black and white with her. I can't really think of any Bioware companion who was; the writers are very good at creating multifaceted characters

[Lanavis]

@thedancingdruid: And do you think it's intelligent for a bunch of people who have absolutely NO survival skills AND fewer and fewer supporters outside the towers... to go rogue and cast themselves out into the wilds to fend for themselves? 

You do realize that not all mages are helpless babies, right?

Look at Vivienne, at Wynne, and even at Anders (circa Awakening) they were able to manage while outside of the circle.

 

Plus, the mages can use magic (such as paralysis and other low-level spells) to help catch prey to eat.

[Medhia_Nox]

@MattH:  Some people ARE black and white however - in fact, many of the Pro-Mages on this board are black and white - as are many of the Pro-Elves... they are totally right and there's no discussion about it.

 

@Lanavis:  Interesting - so... if mages can do all these things, then they couldn't have been the horrible shut ins everyone claims them to be.  Also - if I gave you a dead deer - would you know what to do with it?  And even if the answer for you is yes.. for the VAST amount of modern people - the answer would be a resounding no.

[Lanavis]

It's akin to exquisite, gilded cages for parrots, cockatoos and other exotic birds. It doesn't matter how nice the cage is, it's still a cage. Anyone with clipped wings no matter how fine the dressing would still probably still want the chance to fly.

Great analogy.

A gilded cage is nice to live in, but only if the option to leave at will is present.

[frylock23]

I can see her point. I think people assume that because she's ambitious, she likes things the way they were and wanted the status quo. Perhaps her ambition was to remake the order from within, working from inside the system. Perhaps her thought process was that mages shouldn't have to make the entire world their enemies, make everyone fear them, in order to effect change, and just as she got herself into position ... BOOM! Bye bye Chantry. And the Mage Templar War begins.

 

If so, I can well imagine her being annoyed.

[thedancingdruid]

@thedancingdruid: And do you think it's intelligent for a bunch of people who have absolutely NO survival skills AND fewer and fewer supporters outside the towers... to go rogue and cast themselves out into the wilds to fend for themselves? 

 

There's no need for caps my good man. My point is locking any human (and fantasy elf) up and their instinct will be to rebel, regardless of the circumstances, posh or not. As far as the mundanes' view on magic, that's the Chantry's fault, is it not?

[Beerfish]

It is easy for someone of such privilege (for a mage in the circle) to say that the other mages should just deal with their circumstances.

I do not like her whatsoever.

Because she is smart and logical, not knee jerk.  The total fail logic of the rebellion is 'we must rebel because we are oppressed!' However there is zero thought as to why you were oppressed in the 1st place, what you wish to accomplish realistically and what might happen after the rebellion.

 

The great old chapter from LOTR or the Hobbitt...."Out of the Frying Pan and into the Fire." applies here.  Not only that the hard core rebels totally ignore the majority of mages that either wanted no change or some reforms.

 

As for the mage leadership voting in favor of separation, that is on the head of one very foolish and selfish butt head named Rhys who no sooner than his mums body was cold (sacrificed for his selfish benefit) went 100% against what she had striven for all her life.

[efd731]

@MattH:  Some people ARE black and white however - in fact, the Pro-Mages on this board are black and white - as are many of the Pro-Elves... they are totally right and there's no discussion about it.

hahahah never mind that they are totally right as are the mages they support. but you know, the fictional vote to seperate was decided by a single vote, and ignore all those poor mages who thought rebelling was a bad idea, theyre just misguided and shouldnt have opinions also, all the suffering caused by the mages to your average thedosian is irrelevant, and so in fact is the regular suffering of the average thedosian whose life actually isnt much better than a mages on account of no power/money and the risk of starvation. but no, the mages are the winners of the oppression olympics by the largest margin in world history and should never be responsible for their own actions, much less expected to understand how they are perceived by others and how dangerous they are.

[ShadowLordXII]

Her argument is basically that rebel mages are rebelious teenagers that don't think about the concequences of their actions and don't realise how lucky they are with their position.

 

 

And honestly...

 

She is right.

 

No she's not.

 

She's got a point on a few things, but she's dangerously oversimplifying things.

 

These "rebellious teens" were taken from their families and forced into the Circle. They then have to pass a dangerous test where they're thrown into the Fade and essentially kill a demon or have your head cut off if you take too long. The only alternative is being lobotomized. After you pass, you'll be lucky to ever leave the tower and when you do leave, it will only be for Circle Business.

 

Then there's how these "rebellious teens" often suffer unwarranted emotional, mental, physical and sexual abuse by their templar overseers (not all, but enough for it to be a problem) and that they could be tranquilized against their will without consequence. Not to mention that the Chantry teaches common folk that these mages are dangerous powder-kegs that should be shunned even though their military wing is filled with pseudo-magic knights and they're using blood magic to track the mages every move.

 

If Viv was only talking about Anders, I'd absolutely agree. But keep in mind that the Kirkwall Incident (which started the war) was caused by a radical apostate with no involvement from the Circle whatsoever. Keep in mind that Meredith called the Right of Annullment on the Circle for a crime that they did not commit. The fact that the Circle had blood mages within it doesn't change how Meredith was scapegoating the Circle and the Circle fought back by any means necessary. 

 

If anything, Viv currently sounds like a privileged exception who smugly assumed that everyone had the same experiences that she did and looks down on them for not seeing things from her perspective. A perspective that apparently leaves out a lot of facts about the realities of the Circle's failures and how the Chantry tugged and pulled open bleeding wounds. Or how this war was forced upon everyone by idiots without a lick of common sense.

[Medhia_Nox]

@thedancingdruid:  The caps are for emphasis - not shouting.  I could have used italics if that makes you feel better. 

 

History would disagree with your view on locking up humans... in fact, far more never rebelled than did.  There is comfort in routine for many people. 

 

I'm not talking about emotion here - I'm talking about the gross impracticality of the time and manner in which the rebellion as decided upon.  These mages should be doomed.  They can't provide the very basics for themselves and they didn't think beyond their temper tantrum to figure out how they would actually manage a rebellion.

 

It seems to me - clearly neither do their real world supporters.

 

Beyond some teen fiction book where the realities of how things actually work are totally ignored - victory always favors the prepared.  These mages are not, at all, prepared.

 

@ShadowlordXII:  What you say about Vivienne I say about the rebels.  Not everyone who has been mistreated becomes a violent radical - and not every violent radical should call someone who doesn't rebel a traitor.

[ArvinDulku]

There's no need for caps my good man. My point is locking any human (and fantasy elf) up and their instinct will be to rebel, regardless of the circumstances, posh or not. As far as the mundanes' view on magic, that's the Chantry's fault, is it not?

The chantry's fault? Obviously, but when you have the one nation where mages run free as they like, they happen to oppress the mundane, practice blood magic en masse, have an active slave economy and commit blood sacrifices, I got a feeling mages aren't really helping themselves here.

And the gilded cage thing doesn't work either, considering birds can't shoot the elements from the their fingers whilst at the same time being at risk of procession by demons who want to use them to do horrible, horrible things.

Their cages are an unfortunate necessity, whilst the birds should be free...well, unless I guess they could run into Shale? 

[Lanavis]

@MattH:  Some people ARE black and white however - in fact, many of the Pro-Mages on this board are black and white - as are many of the Pro-Elves... they are totally right and there's no discussion about it.

 

@Lanavis:  Interesting - so... if mages can do all these things, then they couldn't have been the horrible shut ins everyone claims them to be.  Also - if I gave you a dead deer - would you know what to do with it?  And even if the answer for you is yes.. for the VAST amount of modern people - the answer would be a resounding no.

I thought people only claimed mages were horrible shutins due to the fact that many circles forcibly disallowed the majority of their mages from leaving the confines of said Circles, which makes them shutins by default. 

And honestly, I wouldn't know what to do with a dead deer, but that says nothing on what the average mage would know.

Don't forget that Circle mages basically spend most of their lives reading and training/controlling their magic.

It wouldn't be improbable for Circles to have books on wildlife or how to prepare animals for cooking. Especially since many Circles appear to insource for their services so it would be likely for Circles to provide the books or classes to at least teach basic food preparation courses and other basics.

[Zu Long]

@MattH: Some people ARE black and white however - in fact, many of the Pro-Mages on this board are black and white - as are many of the Pro-Elves... they are totally right and there's no discussion about it.

@Lanavis: Interesting - so... if mages can do all these things, then they couldn't have been the horrible shut ins everyone claims them to be. Also - if I gave you a dead deer - would you know what to do with it? And even if the answer for you is yes.. for the VAST amount of modern people - the answer would be a resounding no.

Do you realize, I wonder, that from my own perspective as a lurker in this thread, YOU come off as one of those who are black and white?

[efd731]

No she's not.

 

She's got a point on a few things, but she's dangerously oversimplifying things.

 

These "rebellious teens" were taken from their families and forced into the Circle. They then have to pass a dangerous test where they're thrown into the Fade and essentially kill a demon or have your head cut off if you take too long. The only alternative is being lobotomized. After you pass, you'll be lucky to ever leave the tower and when you do leave, it will only be for Circle Business.

 

Then there's how these "rebellious teens" often suffer unwarranted emotional, mental, physical and sexual abuse by their templar overseers (not all, but enough for it to be a problem) and that they could be tranquilized against their will without consequence. Not to mention that the Chantry teaches common folk that these mages are dangerous powder-kegs that should be shunned even though their military wing is filled with pseudo-magic knights and they're using blood magic to track the mages every move.

 

If Viv was only talking about Anders, I'd absolutely agree. But keep in mind that the Kirkwall Incident (which started the war) was caused by a radical apostate with no involvement from the Circle whatsoever. Keep in mind that Meredith called the Right of Annullment on the Circle for a crime that they did not commit. The fact that the Circle had blood mages within it doesn't change how Meredith was scapegoating the Circle and the Circle fought back by any means necessary. 

 

If anything, Viv currently sounds like a privileged exception who smugly assumed that everyone had the same experiences that she did and looks down on them for not seeing things from her perspective. A perspective that apparently leaves out a lot of facts about the realities of the Circle's failures and how the Chantry tugged and pulled open bleeding wounds. Or how this war was forced upon everyone by idiots without a lick of common sense.

wouldn't that fact that a radical apostate ABOMINATION*(key word there ) was responsible for a mass killing be a point in the favor of a system that ruthlessly tries to prevent such things from ever occurring? also, they're taken as children becuase children are mentally weak super emotional and very open to the inlfuences of demons..and thats the age which magic usualy manifests also, the leader of that circle was sponsoring blood magic research and helping a cereal killer(deliberate). the whole point of DA2 was that the kirkwall templars and mages were utterly beyond saving. 

also, she lived in a circle, how would she not know what everything was like? she's never condemned the rebellion, just methods and ideologies. because lets be honest, that was a half-baked scheme at best. you're throwing a very isolated group with 'phenomenal cosmic power" into a populace that's rightfully terrified of them, and what makes you think that will go well? lest be honest here, the mages are just as much at fault as the templars for the events. if they policed their own than the templars wouldn't have to or wouldn't have the excuse to.

[Nerevar-as]

Let´s see...

 

-Taken from and isolated from my parents.

 

-Forced to confront a demon with basic training at best to see if it possesses me.

 

-Not allowed to leave the tower unless the Templars say so.

 

-Can´t have romantic relationships on the open and any child will be taken from me.

 

-Watched 24/7.

 

-And some I can´t remember right now.

 

But hey, rejoice, because I have food on the table every day?

 

If she´s stupid enough to want to live in a prison I´ll be happy to put her in one.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Zu Long:  Oh, I am - about a great many things in real life.  Should I feel shame in it do you think?  Cause I don't.  Not at all.

 

But about the mage topic - how so? 

 

- Do you disagree that it's totally unintelligent for a bunch of people with no ability to survive outside of their tower to suddenly run from their towers and start a war at the height of a time period where the common people hate them because of what Anders did?

 

- Or maybe you disagree that the mages haven't totally undermined their knowledge base because they fled their Circles allowing the Templars to destroy every tome and magical item they once possessed (this is happening in the story - it's not a theory).

 

- Or do you disagree that calling Vivienne privileged to support mage radicalism is equally as ignorant as anyone who says the mages have no right to be angry?

- Or perhaps, because you've seen a handful of my posts you think I'm privileged and you're not aware I don't support the current Circle system or the Templars regardless of whether or not I think the mage rebellion was the height of idiocy.

 

I'm not sure where you say me being black and white - please illuminate.

[herkles]

So allowing more incidents like what happened with Cornor is a good thing?