I still think that would be overestimating the significance of his existence to both factions.
Limiting the access of the third (and correct) option in this war based on whether or not Anders is alive would be more than scummy.
No one said Vivienne was handed the position for free, or was noble/something else to be entitled to it.
They said that people who achieved something in life, even through blood and tears, can very well forget what it was like before, and all the injustice they faced as well, so they can be smug to those beneath them in position.
They can become more interested in keeping their earned position, rather than dealing with the injustice for anyone else.
And that's where you get Vivienne. What she says is essentially right, that was the worst time for rebellion, it's something that should have happened(the negotiations for change, not the rebellion), a long time ago. Although she didn't say it like that, she was more pointing out that everyone besides her is selfish.
But you can see that she is smug, and believes anyone that wants their freedom is a selfish brat, that can't appreciate what was handed to them. That is what makes people believe she's full of it.
So people have argued that she is equally selfish. She lost her position of power and influence, no matter how she got it, and she's pissed about that, not the Circle system vanishing being worse at this point. It's awfully tempting to think that, especially when we find her in Inquisition, the new rising power.
This is all speculation, but what did you expect to hear from a pro-circle Mage? People that are pro-Templar, will find truth in her words, because beneath the smug hypocrisy, she does make a point. People that are pro-Mage, will be able to also see that smugness and point out that she lacks the understanding of how things came to this, which she does lack.
So, we have some indications that Vivienne actually wants power. She was First Enchanter and influence to the nobles. She is now, in Inquisition, a new rising power.
Is she here, because she wants to set things right? Or does she only want power, for herself, and will support anything that promotes that?
I don't know, but i want to see, she is actually a very interesting character with lots of potential.
Also, remember that the Mage-Templar conflict does not have an easy way out. Arguments are solid for each side. Vivienne is not right, or wrong. She just sees things from her perspective.
I don't know, but i want to see, she is actually a very interesting character with lots of potential.
Also, remember that the Mage-Templar conflict does not have an easy way out. Arguments are solid for each side. Vivienne is not right, or wrong. She just sees things from her perspective.
this. I can't wait to actually hear more of her opinions and how she views things. She seems like a fun character.
I don't know, but i want to see, she is actually a very interesting character with lots of potential.
Oh hell yes. A pro-circle mage with ambition? That alone makes her very interesting. Wynne was nice and all, but she was that's just it: She was nice. She had no real ambition. Viviene does. Which makes me incredibly intrigued in her ideas for the future, since merely restoring the old Circle system is unlikely to expand on her ambitions..
Wow wow wow, hold on. Source? I hear this argument levelled against Viviene all the time, but where exactly is it said she was born on a bed of roses and has no idea what mages go through?
She's a mage. She damn well knows what mages go through. The main difference between her and other mages is that she also knows that mages don't exist on the world alone, and that there is a "rest of the world" that fears them at best, and is out for their blood at worst.
Misrepresentation much?
I don't recall writing about beds of roses, what I said was that she liked the current (or rather previous) system because she was good at it, and I don't really blame her for it, it's not like she claimed to be unbiased or entirely selfless.
"Mages don't exist on the world alone" sounds bombastic, but sadly it doesn't justify anything. Of course they don't, but that doesn't mean that the Chantry is right or justified.
The conflict in it's base can be traced to certain emotions -
On the non mage side:
Fear: Non Mages fear those who are more powerful than them.
Jealousy: Non Mages are simply jealous, in the same way many humans are jealous in those smarter richer and the more beautiful.
On the Mage side the main dangers are from greed and arrogance - no need to explain much.
The chantry's solution does very little to solve the problem.
I suppose you could try and counter both sides of this problem with the carrot and the stick:
"Magic exist to serve man" - Use Mages in ways that will improve life for everybody, healers, magical-artisans, enchanters, etc.
Suddenly the little people on the street will start to feel differently about magic when it's responsible not just for the occasional horror story, but also to everyday comforts, and to the saving of life.
Pay those Mages handsomely for their work, improve their options, let them live their life more or less as they want, and when the occasional maniac does something that he shouldn't (eat babies...), make an example out of him. Make sure that the average mage knows how much he can earn by working inside the law, and how much he can lose by going rogue.
I suppose you could try and counter both sides of this problem with the carrot and the stick:
"Magic exist to serve man" - Use Mages in ways that will improve life for everybody, healers, magical-artisans, enchanters, etc.
Suddenly the little people on the street will start to feel differently about magic when it's responsible not just for the occasional horror story, but also to everyday comforts, and to the saving of life.
Pay those Mages handsomely for their work, improve their options, let them live their life more or less as they want, and when the occasional maniac does something that he shouldn't (eat babies...), make an example out of him. Make sure that the average mage knows how much he can earn by working inside the law, and how much he can lose by going rogue.
Funny enough my inquistor believes something similar, though she wants all this to be under the suprvision of the Chantry. The main difference is that she wants the templar order as an order of guardians and malifcar hunters. She is strongly devoted Andrastian, strongly believes the chantry is right. She though doesn't understand what the mages go through, and this is something that I think most people in thedas have; which is they don't know what life in the circle is like. Nobles might know more, but they know just as much as what a mage truely goes through as they probaly know how life is like for city elves.
However, she knows that mages can serve men as her mother comes from Nevarra; and in Nevarra there is the Mortalitasi Order of Magi that seem to be unaffliated with the circle system not to mention they serve as adivsors, creepy advisors that my inquistor doesn't understand but still.
That does make me curious how Mortalitasi view this rebellion.
Funny enough my inquistor believes something similar, though she wants all this to be under the suprvision of the Chantry. The main difference is that she wants the templar order as an order of guardians and malifcar hunters. She is strongly devoted Andrastian, strongly believes the chantry is right. She though doesn't understand what the mages go through, and this is something that I think most people in thedas have; which is they don't know what life in the circle is like. Nobles might know more, but they know just as much as what a mage truely goes through as they probaly know how life is like for city elves.
However, she knows that mages can serve men as her mother comes from Nevarra; and in Nevarra there is the Mortalitasi Order of Magi that seem to be unaffliated with the circle system not to mention they serve as adivsors, creepy advisors that my inquistor doesn't understand but still.
That does make me curious how Mortalitasi view this rebellion.
I don't know if inserting religion into something like this is a good idea.
Religion is too powerful to be made in charge of law enforcement, that's a recipe for disaster.
I don't know if inserting religion into something like this is a good idea.
Religion is too powerful to be made in charge of law enforcement, that's a recipe for disaster.
I never said it was my opinion. I said it was my inquistor's opinion. I like to roleplay. My inquistor Navilia Trevelyan is devoted to Andraste and the teachings of the Chantry. She is proudly pro-chantry. This is her view and what I am going through in game.
Misrepresentation much?
I don't recall writing about beds of roses, what I said was that she liked the current (or rather previous) system because she was good at it, and I don't really blame her for it, it's not like she claimed to be unbiased or entirely selfless.
"Mages don't exist on the world alone" sounds bombastic, but sadly it doesn't justify anything. Of course they don't, but that doesn't mean that the Chantry is right or justified.
You're right, it doesn't. What it does mean is that mages can't just step out from under the Chantry and expect to be free. Because there is an entire rest of the world pants-shittingly terrified of that leading to a new Tevinter Imperium and ready and willing to kill any mage they can to stop it.
And that sentiment, the one that was thinking all they had to was say "No thanks Divine, we'll do things on our own now, thank you" and receive no backlash from the rest of the world for trying to do so was what Viviene mocked.
I suppose you could try and counter both sides of this problem with the carrot and the stick:
"Magic exist to serve man" - Use Mages in ways that will improve life for everybody, healers, magical-artisans, enchanters, etc.
Suddenly the little people on the street will start to feel differently about magic when it's responsible not just for the occasional horror story, but also to everyday comforts, and to the saving of life.
Pay those Mages handsomely for their work, improve their options, let them live their life more or less as they want, and when the occasional maniac does something that he shouldn't (eat babies...), make an example out of him. Make sure that the average mage knows how much he can earn by working inside the law, and how much he can lose by going rogue.
I have my doubts the Chantry would go for it. The Chantry loves having scapegoats, and mages make such easy ones since they can't change what they are.
Good thing we have a fancy title, let's see if we can put to work.
Misrepresentation much?
I don't recall writing about beds of roses, what I said was that she liked the current (or rather previous) system because she was good at it, and I don't really blame her for it, it's not like she claimed to be unbiased or entirely selfless.
"Mages don't exist on the world alone" sounds bombastic, but sadly it doesn't justify anything. Of course they don't, but that doesn't mean that the Chantry is right or justified.
No, but I don't think that's what Viviene was getting at. She doesn't deny that the system has problems, she only points out that the way the mages decided to go about trying to fix it (Or rather, break it) is short-sighted and foolish. I mean, the circles in and of themselves aren't necessarily a bad thing, they give mages a place to congregate and learn away from a fearful public. Reform of the current system isn't out of reach. Full and immediate secession? In the wake of an apostate destroying a major chantry with a much loved Grand Cleric inside and a circle mage attempting to assassinate the Divine just months earlier? That's not even bringing up the previous assassination attempt, the one involving blood magic controlled dragons twenty years earlier. The public is not on their side and Justinia was open to reforming the Circles for mages...
I'm sure she likes her power, but I don't think that comes into her judgment of the decision to secede.
Never does Vivienne say that they've inconvenienced her in ANY way... in fact, she's throwing you a ball, so it hardly seems like she's even noticing the rebellion.
So this notion that her opinion is how the rebellion has undermined her pampered life is pretty much bunk.
She states pretty plainly that she thinks the mages are shortsighted and self-centered. In truth - she might even largely be an outside observer who was once part of the system she's criticizing.
Which means she would be both educated about what she's discussing (unlike the PC - since you cannot know what Bioware really intends) and unbiased since it doesn't affect her.
Wow wow wow, hold on. Source? I hear this argument levelled against Viviene all the time, but where exactly is it said she was born on a bed of roses and has no idea what mages go through?
She's a mage. She damn well knows what mages go through. The main difference between her and other mages is that she also knows that mages don't exist on the world alone, and that there is a "rest of the world" that fears them at best, and is out for their blood at worst.
Have you listened to her rant. she believes that all mages have had it easy and are only rebelling out of pettiness against the Templars. She seems to have no comprehension of the trials some mages have had to go through.
Have you listened to her rant. she believes that all mages have had it easy and are only rebelling out of pettiness against the Templars. She seems to have no comprehension of the trials some mages have had to go through.
Don't be surprised if you're proven wrong once the game releases.
Never does Vivienne say that they've inconvenienced her in ANY way... in fact, she's throwing you a ball, so it hardly seems like she's even noticing the rebellion.
So this notion that her opinion is how the rebellion has undermined her pampered life is pretty much bunk.
Well, we don't know all that much about her to safely speculate that far.
What I see is a powerful female Mage politician who likes to wear the latest orlesians fashions, forced to run with a bunch of brutes all over the countryside in the mud, and eat charred rabbit like a common bandit.
I would say that she is rather inconvenienced.
@Tzeentchian Apostrophe: Umm.. how is she holding a ball for the Inquisitor if she's been forced to "run with a bunch of brutes all over the countryside in the mud, and eat charred rabbit like a common bandit."
Or are you saying the ball we attend is not the one she holds in the Inquisitor's honor?
Have you listened to her rant. she believes that all mages have had it easy and are only rebelling out of pettiness against the Templars. She seems to have no comprehension of the trials some mages have had to go through.
That's not what she's saying. At all. What she's saying is that mages seem to have drowned themselves in pity for so long that they've forgotten there's an entire world out there that fears them at best. Hates them at worst. Viviene isn't talking as if she has no idea what mages have gone through, she's talking as if she actually has a clue what the world thinks of mages.
And she's right. Look at the Inquisition streams. The populace has no love for templars, but mages are despised just as much. In one of the recent streams, a mage and templars are fighting near a refugee camp, and the guard on duty shoots both sides. She doesn't help "free the mage from his evil captors" she shoots both.
@Tzeentchian Apostrophe: Umm.. how is she holding a ball for the Inquisitor if she's been forced to "run with a bunch of brutes all over the countryside in the mud, and eat charred rabbit like a common bandit."
Or are you saying the ball we attend is not the one she holds in the Inquisitor's honor?
Just go watch one of those videos the devs posted. The game contains more running in the mud sections than balls...
No, but I don't think that's what Viviene was getting at. She doesn't deny that the system has problems, she only points out that the way the mages decided to go about trying to fix it (Or rather, break it) is short-sighted and foolish. I mean, the circles in and of themselves aren't necessarily a bad thing, they give mages a place to congregate and learn away from a fearful public. Reform of the current system isn't out of reach. Full and immediate secession? In the wake of an apostate destroying a major chantry with a much loved Grand Cleric inside and a circle mage attempting to assassinate the Divine just months earlier? That's not even bringing up the previous assassination attempt, the one involving blood magic controlled dragons twenty years earlier. The public is not on their side and Justinia was open to reforming the Circles for mages...
I'm sure she likes her power, but I don't think that comes into her judgment of the decision to secede.
That's all very nice in theory, but if you are a mage, and all you have to look for is the unlikely mercy of the likes of Lambert and Meredith or the tranquil solution, a rebelion as doomed as it might be suddenly seems like a good idea.
Don't be surprised if you're proven wrong once the game releases.
"Safe inside their towers they though only of the Templars and their own resentment."
Most mages I have seen were not safe in their towers. So far I've seen two towers and they were both under threat of Annulment.
@Tzeentchian Apostrophe: There's nothing suggesting she's forced to join the Inquisition...
It's far more likely that she chooses to join the Inquisition - because unlike the rebel mages - she cares more about the world than she does about herself.
@frankf43: Are you serious about the Ferelden tower? You're aware who destroyed that Tower right? Cause it wasn't Templars.
Que: Yeah, but he was angry so he had to.
That's not what she's saying. At all. What she's saying is that mages seem to have drowned themselves in pity for so long that they've forgotten there's an entire world out there that fears them at best. Hates them at worst. Viviene isn't talking as if she has no idea what mages have gone through, she's talking as if she actually has a clue what the world thinks of mages.
And she's right. Look at the Inquisition streams. The populace has no love for templars, but mages are despised just as much. In one of the recent streams, a mage and templars are fighting near a refugee camp, and the guard on duty shoots both sides. She doesn't help "free the mage from his evil captors" she shoots both.
Safe in their own towers.
@Tzeentchian Apostrophe: There's nothing suggesting she's forced to join the Inquisition...
It's far more likely that she chooses to join the Inquisition - because unlike the rebel mages - she cares more about the world than she does about herself.
Perhaps, but that's far less fun than participating in a ball, wouldn't you agree?
She may have chosen her job out of necessity or belief, that does not mean that she has to enjoy every aspect of it, or that she does not resent those who in her eyes forced her to do it.
@Tzeentchian Apostrophe: I'm still trying to figure out how the mages forced her into trying to help save the world.
Unless you're saying the mages opened the Breach - thereby forcing her to join the Inquisition.
I feel viv is joining the inquisition to grow her own power, and saving the world is a means to an end for her.@Tzeentchian Apostrophe: There's nothing suggesting she's forced to join the Inquisition...
It's far more likely that she chooses to join the Inquisition - because unlike the rebel mages - she cares more about the world than she does about herself.
@frankf43: Are you serious about the Ferelden tower? You're aware who destroyed that Tower right? Cause it wasn't Templars.
Que: Yeah, but he was angry so he had to.
Retour en haut