They were a heck of a lot safer then they were getting killed in their villages when their magic power manifested.
Seriously in Asunder a town was ready to kill Wynne, Rhys, and Adriane just because they were mages, people do not grasp the world that Thedas is and the VERY real reason that templars are supposed to be protecting the world from mages and mages from the world.
this. I bet a number of city Elves would be rather annoyed at the arrogance that mages have it worse then they do.
Even if it only guarantees further fear and oppression for all Mages born in the future? That's the sort of shortsighted attitude Viviane is criticizing.
The point is if I am waiting for the templars to decide when to kill me I would rather rise up and decide my own fate whether it was death or not. I cannot understand the mentality of someone who would sit back and take abuse rather than rebel against it.
And mages who want to be sheep might not like you deciding that for them.
Remember when we were talking about children?
What do you think is happening to young children who start showing magic ability right now?
In the rural villages most likely they are being killed or abandoned (to likely death) apart from those who are being hidden by their families and will likely lose control of their abilities at a later date, increasing the fear and hatred of magic and mages felt by the common folk. Some are likely to find the way into the hands of nobility, mercenaries and bandits to be used as weapons.
In the cities i'd expect most to meet the same fate as their rural cousins with some finding themselves useful to thieves.
They were a heck of a lot safer then they were getting killed in their villages when their magic power manifested.
Seriously in Asunder a town was ready to kill Wynne, Rhys, and Adriane just because they were mages, people do not grasp the world that Thedas is and the VERY real reason that templars are supposed to be protecting the world from mages and mages from the world.
The templars were ready to kill them also.
The point is if I am waiting for the templars to decide when to kill me I would rather rise up and decide my own fate whether it was death or not. I cannot understand the mentality of someone who would sit back and take abuse rather than rebel against it.
Frankly that's not the point of the topic, Vivienne's opinon is a condemnation of the Circle Mages political leadership which decided to start a war without any clear idea of what they were going to achieve and the willingness to sacrifice all Circle Mages for their ideals.
You would have the right to rise up, would you have the right to force everybody else to join you?
And mages who want to be sheep might not like you deciding that for them.
Remember when we were talking about children?
What do you think is happening to young children who start showing magic ability right now?
What did Wynne say? They probably would've stoned her if the templars hadn't been called 
What did Wynne say? They probably would've stoned her if the templars hadn't been called
Yep, they locked her away in a barn till the Templars arrived.
There are more paths to rebellion than outright violence. There can be accommodation in resistance. Historically, most violent rebellions only get a lot of people killed and make life more difficult for the survivors. There are other, less destructive and more productive, ways to seek change.The point is if I am waiting for the templars to decide when to kill me I would rather rise up and decide my own fate whether it was death or not. I cannot understand the mentality of someone who would sit back and take abuse rather than rebel against it.
Frankly that's not the point of the topic, Vivienne's opinon is a condemnation of the Circle Mages political leadership which decided to start a war without any clear idea of what they were going to achieve and the willingness to sacrifice all Circle Mages for their ideals.
Not to mention, considering the state of thedas; a lot might be forced into bandtry just to survive. For many didn't have to worry about hunting their own food; now they have some allies, no doubt some friends and family, but with the whole amount of fear they likely don't have many people to support them. So how would the average circle mage survive in this sort of enviornment he/she is now thrust in? they were bookworms not outdoors people.
Even Meredith rejected the Tranquil Solution, so that's neither here nor there. Just because times are hard doesn't mean the most immediate and destructive path is the best one and most likely for success. How many have died and will die that might not have if the Mages had pursued a more peaceful road to change? What guarantee was there that anything good will come of it?
What guarantees mages will not face another ethnic cleansing for a crime they did not commit? Mages had every right to grow weary of the situation. What stopping them to get annulled when an apostate nearby them does something, Templars did it once, what's stopping them from doing it again?
There are more paths to rebellion than outright violence. There can be accommodation in resistance. Historically, most rebellions only get a lot of people killed and make life more difficult for the survivors. There are other, less destructive and more productive, ways to seek change.
You forget this is an medieval setting. Anything short of violence falls to deaf ears. The Chantry itself only got were they were now because they forcibly imposed their beliefs on other countries. Anyone that refuses get an exalted march to put them in their places.
You forget this is an medieval setting. Anything short of violence falls to deaf ears. The Chantry itself only got were they were now because they forcibly imposed their beliefs on other countries. Anyone that refuses get an exalted march to put them in their places.
Exactly, not to mention Andraste and her BARBARIAN (emphasize) army raped, pillaged and murdered their way to victory. They didn't do it peacefully.
There are more paths to rebellion than outright violence. There can be accommodation in resistance. Historically, most rebellions only get a lot of people killed and make life more difficult for the survivors. There are other, less destructive and more productive, ways to seek change.
The circle in Dairsmuid tried that and got Annulled.
The point is if I am waiting for the templars to decide when to kill me I would rather rise up and decide my own fate whether it was death or not. I cannot understand the mentality of someone who would sit back and take abuse rather than rebel against it.
And our point is that you have no right to decide whether we should do the same. All it does is make you just as bad as the templars.
The Circle system as it was was terribly oppressive and in need of an overhaul, but you make it sound as if all mages that die did so young and at the hands of templars. Which is blatantly false, given that we see elderly mages all over the place.
The templars were ready to kill them also.
Ready to, yes. Willing to, also yes. Nobody denies that. But they weren't actively killing them unless the need arose.
The rest of Thedas doesn't need a reason. "They're mages" is usually enough. The knowledge that the Circle and its templars were there to take in those children was the only thing that halted most people from just killing children the moment they manifested their magic.
Now that the Circle is gone, no such feeling of safety exists anymore. In rebelling, the mages have doomed many children to die at the hands of people that fear them.
That is the kind of short-sightedness Vivienne is talking about.
I'm not saying they shouldn't seek change, I'm saying they chose the least effective method given the lack of a sympathetic public and the most likely method to make things worse for future Mages. I'm criticizing them for being shortsighted, not for being dissatisfied.What guarantees mages will not face another ethnic cleansing for a crime they did not commit? Mages had every right to grow weary of the situation. What stopping them to get annulled when an apostate nearby them does something, Templars did it once, what's stopping them from doing it again?
The templars were ready to kill them also.
Really......Gregoirre was ever so blood thirsty in DAO. Cullen actually stood up to Meredith over saving some mages who surrendered in DA2. Just because of the insanity of templars in Kirkwall in DA2 doesn't make all templars them anymore then the insanity of bloodmages in DA2 makes all mages BMs.
I disagree with Lamberts manner of handling things at the end of asunder with the conclave, but the point is he was right. A mage had murdered another mage, not the one he thought, but he would have investigated as he did when Rhyss was in prison, and the mages had violated the agreement that they agreed to to have said conclave. Lambert has blood on his hands for how he handeled it but so does Fiona for her impulsiveness. When you have arguable the most powerful political person in Thedas standing up for you, you don't slap her in the face when she is trying to help you.
What guarantees mages will not face another ethnic cleansing for a crime they did not commit? Mages had every right to grow weary of the situation. What stopping them to get annulled when an apostate nearby them does something, Templars did it once, what's stopping them from doing it again?
Whats stopping every mage from turning into an abomination or Anders and killing innocent people? Templars had every right to grow weary of the inevitability of their situation. Whats stopping a mage from doing something horrible again, mages did it once, whats stopping them from doing it again?
See others can play the victim as well. I don't agree with the logic of your statement anymore then I agree with the logic of my own.
Hardly, that situation isn't at all applicable, but let me attempt to get through to you wih the full idea. There can be accommodation in resistance, AND resistance in accommodation. Just because you work within a system instead of trying to break it doesn't mean you can't change it.The circle in Dairsmuid tried that and got Annulled.
I'm not saying they shouldn't seek change, I'm saying they chose the least effective method given the lack of a sympathetic public and the most likely method to make things worse for future Mages. I'm criticizing them for being shortsighted, not for being dissatisfied.
College of Enchanters was disbanded at the hint of more freedom for mages which practically obliterated any chance of peaceful negotiations. Also its resembled a tyranny perfectly. I think the V ****** had too good of a life to see what mages went through, she was the favorite of the court and that's a lot given that its Orlais.
Whats stopping every mage from turning into an abomination or Anders and killing innocent people? Templars had every right to grow weary of the inevitability of their situation. Whats stopping a mage from doing something horrible again, mages did it once, whats stopping them from doing it again?
See others can play the victim as well. I don't agree with the logic of your statement anymore then I agree with the logic of my own.
Except all mages have never went full abomination but a circle has been unjustly annulled.
And our point is that you have no right to decide whether we should do the same. All it does is make you just as bad as the templars.
The Circle system as it was was terribly oppressive and in need of an overhaul, but you make it sound as if all mages that die did so young and at the hands of templars. Which is blatantly false, given that we see elderly mages all over the place.
Ready to, yes. Willing to, also yes. Nobody denies that. But they weren't actively killing them unless the need arose.
The rest of Thedas doesn't need a reason. "They're mages" is usually enough. The knowledge that the Circle and its templars were there to take in those children was the only thing that halted most people from just killing children the moment they manifested their magic.
Now that the Circle is gone, no such feeling of safety exists anymore. In rebelling, the mages have doomed many children to die at the hands of people that fear them.
That is the kind of short-sightedness Vivienne is talking about.
Wasn't it a democratic vote that forced the split? One person didn't decide. The Fraternities of Enchanters voted to break from the circle. I think most of use agree that we stand behind the decisions of our elected leaders whether we agree with them or not.
After all it is the corner stone of Democracy.
OMG what makes you think this woman was treated any differently than any other mage? She was a trained pet in the court originally, not much better than a jester. They underestimated her ambition and intelligence and she had the gumption to rise to be more than they could have expected. She knew how to work the system to get where she was, no one just handed it to her!
She is the very example of what mages can do if they just had some gumption instead of whining about how 'life isn't fair!' 'I'm a victim!' 'Gimme!'
Frankly, all this thread has done is made me want her in my group even more than I did at first glance.
Whats stopping every mage from turning into an abomination or Anders and killing innocent people? Templars had every right to grow weary of the inevitability of their situation. Whats stopping a mage from doing something horrible again, mages did it once, whats stopping them from doing it again?
See others can play the victim as well. I don't agree with the logic of your statement anymore then I agree with the logic of my own.
And what is stopping every drug addict Templar turning into a Behemoth?
OMG what makes you think this woman was treated any differently than any other mage? She was a trained pet in the court originally, not much better than a jester. They underestimated her ambition and intelligence and she had the gumption to rise to be more than they could have expected. She knew how to work the system to get where she was, no one just handed it to her!
She is the very example of what mages can do if they just had some gumption instead of whining about how 'life isn't fair!' 'I'm a victim!' 'Gimme!'
Frankly, all this thread has done is made me want her in my group even more than I did at first glance.
Fiona got to a ten times better position, she defeated brood mothers and saved countries and people but she was raped, abused, discriminated against etc... But in the end she knows that her fellow mages are treated like tools, only kept for their usefulness in gilded cages.
Wasn't it a democratic vote that forced the split? One person didn't decide. The Fraternities of Enchanters voted to break from the circle. I think most of use agree that we stand behind the decisions of our elected leaders whether we agree with them or not.
After all it is the corner stone of Democracy.
Except for one thing, this 'democratic' vote was a total sham.
Book Spoilers below!
Wynne sacrificed herself and within 30 seconds for some totally unknown reason they gave Rhys her old position. A guy who was the very epitome of selfishness and who had a major major conflict of interest due to his love life and obsession with Cole. Before wynnes body was even cold Rhys essentially tossed away everything she had ever stood for through her whole life to turn the tide in the vote.
The 'vote' was a massive sham.
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