Wasn't it a democratic vote that forced the split? One person didn't decide. The Fraternities of Enchanters voted to break from the circle. I think most of use agree that we stand behind the decisions of our elected leaders whether we agree with them or not.
After all it is the corner stone of Democracy.
It was a vote by three Enchanters representing three of the five fraternities... And the representative of the Aquetarians wasn't really "elected" to his role, he was appointed.
Except for one thing, this 'democratic' vote was a total sham.
Book Spoilers below!
Wynne sacrificed herself and within 30 seconds for some totally unknown reason they gave Rhys her old position. A guy who was the very epitome of selfishness and who had a major major conflict of interest due to his love life and obsession with Cole. Before wynnes body was even cold Rhys essentially tossed away everything she had ever stood for through her whole life to turn the tide in the vote.
The 'vote' was a massive sham.
He might have turned the vote but he was not the only voter. there still had to be a majority.
And what is stopping every drug addict Templar turning into a Behemoth?
The fact that lyrium doesn't really work that way prevents that... Unless Samson was a cleverly disguised Behemoth, that is.
College of Enchanters was disbanded at the hint of more freedom for mages which practically obliterated any chance of peaceful negotiations. Also its resembled a tyranny perfectly. I think the V ****** had too good of a life to see what mages went through, she was the favorite of the court and that's a lot given that its Orlais.
Fiona got to a ten times better position, she defeated brood mothers and saved countries and people but she was raped, abused, discriminated against etc... But in the end she knows that her fellow mages are treated like tools, only kept for their usefulness in gilded cages.
And yet I'm still seeing BS like this posted. What makes you think she too, didn't earn her position?
College of Enchanters was disbanded at the hint of more freedom for mages which practically obliterated any chance of peaceful negotiations. Also its resembled a tyranny perfectly. I think the V ****** had too good of a life to see what mages went through, she was the favorite of the court and that's a lot given that its Orlais.
The College was disbanded because they skipped "more freedom" and went straight to "full autonomy", this at a time when a free mage had already killed dozens if not hundreds in Kirkwall. The College skipped any negotiations in favor of full secession, which, as Viviene so rightly points out, was an asinine move. Viviene started as an apprentice, as all mages do, what grounds do you have to say that she knows nothing about what mages have been through? That she has the wisdom to see that nothing good can come of secession in this climate of public opinion?
Except for one thing, this 'democratic' vote was a total sham.
Book Spoilers below!
Wynne sacrificed herself and within 30 seconds for some totally unknown reason they gave Rhys her old position. A guy who was the very epitome of selfishness and who had a major major conflict of interest due to his love life and obsession with Cole. Before wynnes body was even cold Rhys essentially tossed away everything she had ever stood for through her whole life to turn the tide in the vote.
The 'vote' was a massive sham.
Regardless thousands of mages marched to Andoral's reach to join the war. Given that mages are quite rare I'd say that's majority.
It was a vote by three Enchanters representing three of the five fraternities... And the representative of the Aquetarians wasn't really "elected" to his role, he was appointed.
By that time Libertarians were in very high rise and were about to outnumber Aequitarians who were the largest at time. The Loyalists were in a very great decline recently. Isolationists and Lucrosians are too small and do not even get a vote.
Wasn't it a democratic vote that forced the split? One person didn't decide. The Fraternities of Enchanters voted to break from the circle. I think most of use agree that we stand behind the decisions of our elected leaders whether we agree with them or not.
After all it is the corner stone of Democracy.
And that, my friend, is why Viviene called the people who voted to split short-sighted.
They saw a chance for their own freedom and jumped it, ignoring that they still live in a world that fears and despises them, and that their decision directly doomed untold numbers of their companions and even children, born or soon to be, to death at the hands of the people of Thedas.
The fact that lyrium doesn't really work that way prevents that... Unless Samson was a cleverly disguised Behemoth, that is.
The Red Templars have turned because of their addiction to lyrium.
OMG what makes you think this woman was treated any differently than any other mage? She was a trained pet in the court originally, not much better than a jester. They underestimated her ambition and intelligence and she had the gumption to rise to be more than they could have expected. She knew how to work the system to get where she was, no one just handed it to her!
She is the very example of what mages can do if they just had some gumption instead of whining about how 'life isn't fair!' 'I'm a victim!' 'Gimme!'
Frankly, all this thread has done is made me want her in my group even more than I did at first glance.
OMG I hate it when someone makes a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" argument to an oppressed group. /can'ttakeseriously.
And yet I'm still seeing BS like this posted. What makes you think she too, didn't earn her position?
She earned her position alright but she has not forgotten what she went through to get there. One would have to imagine what she went though that she begged to undergo the joining and become a grey warden.
By that time Libertarians were in very high rise and were about to outnumber Aequitarians who were the largest at time. The Loyalists were in a very great decline recently. Isolationists and Lucrosians are too small and do not even get a vote.
I understand why the Isolationists and Lucrosians don't get a vote... They are too small. But the population of mages is just as small when compared to the population of mundanes in Thedas... And I doubt you would say mages don't get a vote in how they're to be treated, would you?
The Red Templars have turned because of their addiction to lyrium.
They're addicted to red lyrium. As I understand it, the two types are not the same....
OMG I hate it when someone makes a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" argument to an oppressed group. /can'ttakeseriously.
No worse than an oppressed group pretending all bad things that happen to them come from the outside.
Hardly, that situation isn't at all applicable, but let me attempt to get through to you wih the full idea. There can be accommodation in resistance, AND resistance in accommodation. Just because you work within a system instead of trying to break it doesn't mean you can't change it.
Indeed, and to illustrate a point, and also prove that not everything in the middle ages was done by violince. The Cluny Reforms. They are actually a fascinating thing in history. But to make a long but fascinating peice of the middle ages short. This was a grass-roots movement, started by monks, to bring about change within the catholic church. They fought corruption and worked on helping increase devotion in the catholic faith, as examples one of the things they promoted was educating the priests in latin and the scripture. The reforms biggest successes was the concodat of worms and the first council of Lateran.
I bring this particular movement as an example of how perhaps the Chantry can change without violance, while naturally the sitituation is different from our own real world history. The fact is Divine Justinia the Fifth was working to help improve the lot of mages and Fiona said screw that. Justinia was working to find a cure to tranquilty as just one example. Yes there were centuries of tradition and old grudges but she was trying to do what she can to improve the lot of the mages.
Yet instead of sending a first enchanter or two and calling a council with her to discuss this sort of thing. The circle could have tried this route actually, considering that as they are by dint of being ruled by the chantry a religious organzaiton, similar to the first universities in Europe which were church sponosred. However, what happened? Mages try to assassinate her, though they fail. Then they go "eh **** the divine" to quote fiona. Thus more conflict. Now I am not sure the Divine had any grand clerics on her side, but I doubt she was the only one to have this view in the whole chantry.
Exactly, not to mention Andraste and her BARBARIAN (emphasize) army raped, pillaged and murdered their way to victory. They didn't do it peacefully.
I never got the emphasis on the word barbarian. All of Thedas are barbarians by definition because they don't speak Greek. That's what the word was made for: a slur by the Greeks to non-Greeks because to them it sounded like they were just going "bar barbar bar bar barbar."
I understand why the Isolationists and Lucrosians don't get a vote... They are too small. But the population of mages is just as small when compared to the population of mundanes in Thedas... And I doubt you would say mages don't get a vote in how they're to be treated, would you?
They're addicted to red lyrium. As I understand it, the two types are not the same....
No worse than an oppressed group pretending all bad things that happen to them come from the outside.
The threat is indeed inside - the overbearing templar presence in their towers.
And playing by the rules of sociability has gotten mages collectively apparently nowhere for nearly 1000 years. I don't know with what Vivienne solaces herself but I surely hope it isn't "I did it, you can too."
Regardless thousands of mages marched to Andoral's reach to join the war. Given that mages are quite rare I'd say that's majority.
By that time Libertarians were in very high rise and were about to outnumber Aequitarians who were the largest at time. The Loyalists were in a very great decline recently. Isolationists and Lucrosians are too small and do not even get a vote.
The book states "several hundred" mages were at Andorals reach at the time of the vote. Hardly thousands.
And what is stopping every drug addict Templar turning into a Behemoth?
What part of I don't agree with either statement didn't you get. I was pointing out the idiocy of the argument being made.
Wasn't it a democratic vote that forced the split? One person didn't decide. The Fraternities of Enchanters voted to break from the circle. I think most of use agree that we stand behind the decisions of our elected leaders whether we agree with them or not.
After all it is the corner stone of Democracy.
Technically no it was a democratic vote. The representatives originally convened in the tower to learn about the ability to reverse tranquility. As such they weren't prepared to vote on behalf of those they represent on a matter of such magnitude as separating from the chantry. Also, as has been stated, Rhys wasn't elected to represent anyone. Also, Adrian manipulated and murdered someone to instigate the entire situation, so she had no business voting, she should be 6 ft under.
She earned her position alright but she has not forgotten what she went through to get there. One would have to imagine what she went though that she begged to undergo the joining and become a grey warden.
Hmm, so this is where we see the reasoning of I like and agree with this character so they obviously deserve their position much more then this other person who I don't like or agree with. I would argue Vivienne has put up with plenty, and driven people rarely forget the things they had to go through to get where they were.
What's the chantry spreading that is false?
They finally have a Divine willing to entertain reform, apparently for the first time in 1000 years, and they threw it in her face. When they should be working to win over the public, they provoke their fears. The Mages have done plenty to bring themselves to this point, the Templars aren't solely to blame, not in the slightest.The threat is indeed inside - the overbearing templar presence in their towers.
And playing by the rules of sociability has gotten mages collectively apparently nowhere for nearly 1000 years. I don't know with what Vivienne solaces herself but I surely hope it isn't "I did it, you can too."
*Snip*
The reason people hate mages is because of the Chantry, since they are the cause spreading of the FEAR the populations have in order for them to justify their OPPRESION of mages.
As I said earlier in this thread, the reason the common people hate/fear mages is because of the mages themselves. The Chantry is the reason the common people are ignorant of what mages can do, and why they should be afraid of the mages...
Given that not all Mages went full Abomaination in DA2, and those that did we th player killed most of them before the Last Straw. according to this thread the rest were unjusticely going to be killed for a crime an Apostate had done and was thus a unjustice act by the rules of the Chantry was a great idea. The only thing that can get a place annulled is apparently, when your tower goes against the ideas of the Chantry or when demons are running amok in the tower. The first one is tyranny, while the latter one is stopping a full on demon invasion from hitting civilan populations. The reason people hate mages is because of the Chantry, since they are the cause spreading of the FEAR the populations have in order for them to justify their OPPRESION of mages.
I'm pretty sure Tevinter is also helping the people's fear and hatred of mages. When your only contact with a nation is them sending groups to enslave your fellow citizens, you tend to get a negative view of that nation.
What's the chantry spreading that is false?
Given that not all Mages went full Abomaination in DA2, and those that did we th player killed most of them before the Last Straw. according to this thread the rest were unjusticely going to be killed for a crime an Apostate had done and was thus a unjustice act by the rules of the Chantry was a great idea. The only thing that can get a place annulled is apparently, when your tower goes against the ideas of the Chantry or when demons are running amok in the tower. The first one is tyranny, while the latter one is stopping a full on demon invasion from hitting civilan populations. The reason people hate mages is because of the Chantry, since they are the cause spreading of the FEAR the populations have in order for them to justify their OPPRESION of mages.
So back when the original inquisition was formed to hunt down mages as well as protect mages from people looking to kill them for just being mages, that was the Chantry's fault, even though it had nowhere near the power it does now, it still made people afraid of mages?
No. People don't fear mages because of the chantry. People fear mages because they spontaneously burn down their parents house or accidently kill people with their magic or the village next door has an abomination occur and wipe out the entire village.
For all of Meredith's issues btw she at least had a background that made sense for it. Her sister had become an abomination and killed hundreds over a year before the templars could catch up to it.
OMG what makes you think this woman was treated any differently than any other mage? She was a trained pet in the court originally, not much better than a jester. They underestimated her ambition and intelligence and she had the gumption to rise to be more than they could have expected. She knew how to work the system to get where she was, no one just handed it to her!
She is the very example of what mages can do if they just had some gumption instead of whining about how 'life isn't fair!' 'I'm a victim!' 'Gimme!'
Frankly, all this thread has done is made me want her in my group even more than I did at first glance.
I get what you're trying to say here, really I do and to an extent I even agree with you.
Firstly, I agree that Vivienne's ability to rise to her current position is to be respected, her achievement is proof that a mage can be more than the power they wield.
However, they prime issue here isn't Vivienne's talent, work ethic or lack thereof, but the fact the system itself is rigged (magic is to serve man, never to rule over him). It is not simply a matter of working hard and you'll succeed, mages actively and legally denied from wielding political power.
And also, not to detract her achievements, but in my opinion a lot of her success was dependent on the culture of Orlais, the 'Great Game' and the fact that Celene was the ruler at the time. I mean consider this, what if Gaspard had been the ruler instead, could she have risen to the position she did without the political atmosphere that Celene engendered? maybe, but I doubt it.
Like I said before, I agree that for her achievements she should be respected, but we mustn't underestimate the effect that external forces had to help create those achievements.
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