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[Lulupab]

The book states "several hundred" mages were at Andorals reach at the time of the vote.  Hardly thousands.

 

 

Hmm, so this is where we see the reasoning of I like and agree with this character so they obviously deserve their position much more then this other person who I don't like or agree with.  I would argue Vivienne has put up with plenty, and driven people rarely forget the things they had to go through to get where they were.

 

I believe this is exact text: "The surviving first enchanters, the Grand Enchanter among them, retreated to the fortress of Andoral's Reach. Most of the fifteen Circles rose against the templars, with thousands of mages gathering at Andoral's Reach in the following months. It is predicted that with hundreds of mages manning the battlements, they could off an army ten times their size." I think it was revealed further in an interview and posted in wiki later.

 

No I meant to say Vivienne is content with her life and she is too selfish to see what other mages go through, not all are given opportunity and those are the ones who are crushed.

[wcholcombe]

I get what you're trying to say here, really I do and to an extent I even agree with you.

 

Firstly, I agree that Vivienne's ability to rise to her current position is to be respected, her achievement is proof that a mage can be more than the power they wield.

 

However, they prime issue here isn't Vivienne's talent, work ethic or lack thereof, but the fact the system itself is rigged (magic is to serve man, never to rule over him). It is not simply a matter of working hard and you'll succeed, mages actively and legally denied from wielding political power.

 

And also, not to detract her achievements, but in my opinion a lot of her success was dependent on the culture of Orlais, the 'Great Game' and the fact that Celene was the ruler at the time. I mean consider this, what if Gaspard had been the ruler instead, could she have risen to the position she did without the political atmosphere that Celene engendered? maybe, but I doubt it.

 

Like I said before, I agree that for her achievements she should be respected, but we mustn't underestimate the effect that external forces had to help create those achievements.

While I am not a big fan of Gaspards, considering he had a pet mage apostate helping him, I wouldn't be surprised if it could have occurred under his rule as well.

[Keroko]

I believe this is exact text: "The surviving first enchanters, the Grand Enchanter among them, retreated to the fortress of Andoral's Reach. Most of the fifteen Circles rose against the templars, with thousands of mages gathering at Andoral's Reach in the following months. It is predicted that with hundreds of mages manning the battlements, they could off an army ten times their size." I think it was revealed further in an interview and posted in wiki later.

Yyyyeah, at that point they really didn't have much of a choice besides 'fight or die' anymore. Not the best example of how many mages voluntarily jumped into the flames.
 

No I meant to say Vivienne is content with her life and she is too selfish to see what other mages go through, not all are given opportunity and those are the ones who are crushed.

Except Vivienne's point is that the mages who chose to rebel also doomed those that had no intention of doing so.

If anything, Vivienne is the lesser selfish one here by actually realizing the consequences a forceful separation would have on the mage population as a whole.

The other mages certainly didn't.

[wcholcombe]

I believe this is exact text: "The surviving first enchanters, the Grand Enchanter among them, retreated to the fortress of Andoral's Reach. Most of the fifteen Circles rose against the templars, with thousands of mages gathering at Andoral's Reach in the following months. It is predicted that with hundreds of mages manning the battlements, they could off an army ten times their size." I think it was revealed further in an interview and posted in wiki later.

 

No I meant to say Vivienne is content with her life and she is too selfish to see what other mages go through, not all are given opportunity and those are the ones who are crushed.

Umm no. The book states there were "several hundred mages at Andorals reach."  Also, they state that they can't count on anyone else coming.

 

The idea that thousands were at Andorals reach comes from Cameron Lee.  An individual who readily admits his failings at getting specific details about the lore correct.  Considering Asunder was written by David Gaider and twice states that there were several hundred mages at Andorals reach, once when referring to the mages present for the vote, and once when referring to the number of mages present to defend man the walls, I will side with what Gaider wrote over what Cameron said in an interview. I like them both, but Cameron has been very honest about his ability to get the details wrong at times.

[WarriorOfLight999]

Vivienne doesn't look like someone I could get along with. Nevertheless, she seems sensible enough.

 

The Circle can serve a noble function, provided the Templars no longer rule with fear, tyranny and abuse. Magic will always exist. No amount of fear mongering will change that. If the Chantry wishes to take up responsibility for those with magical talent, then they must do so sensibly. Let some mages out from time to time. Let them serve in the army more, or at a nobles court, or even as a healer for the sick and ailing. Allow them the chance to succeed. Take the leap of faith and trust them. If they do, they might find that mages are willing to trust back.

[Ryriena]

wcholcombe, so you speak for eveyone now? How many times in the game that someone said they feared mages, because of them throwning fireballs at you other than Cullen in DA2? As a mage, in DAO I never once got the I am afraid of you because of the chance you can use a spell on me vibe, even SER Brynt helped me, after realizing I am a mage and did not even once threaten to take me back too the circle, even before I told him I was a Grey Warden. Though the REVEREND MOTHER , tells me I will not rally a mob against you, how kind of her right, this is right after I tell her that I am a GREY WARDEN. . SO in the end this leads to my point that its the CHANTRY that leads the mobs against the mages to justify the OPPRESSION.

[Lulupab]

Umm no. The book states there were "several hundred mages at Andorals reach."  Also, they state that they can't count on anyone else coming.
 
The idea that thousands were at Andorals reach comes from Cameron Lee.  An individual who readily admits his failings at getting specific details about the lore correct.  Considering Asunder was written by David Gaider and twice states that there were several hundred mages at Andorals reach, once when referring to the mages present for the vote, and once when referring to the number of mages present to defend man the walls, I will side with what Gaider wrote over what Cameron said in an interview. I like them both, but Cameron has been very honest about his ability to get the details wrong at times.

If its any consolation Lee says they gather in the coming months whereas Gaider only counts the initial mages.

[AshenEndymion]

wcholcombe, so you speak for eveyone now? How many times in the game that someone said they feared mages, because of them throwning fireballs at you other than Cullen in DA2? As a mage, in DAO I never once got the I am afraid of you because of the chance you can use a spell on me vibe, even SER Brynt helped me, after realizing I am a mage and did not even once threaten to take me back too the circle, even before I told him I was a Grey Warden. Though the REVEREND MOTHER , tells me I will not rally a mob against you, how kind of her right, this is right after I tell her that I am a GREY WARDEN. . SO in the end this leads to my point that its the CHANTRY that leads the mobs against the mages to justify the OPPRESSION.

 

Ser Bryant doesn't try to take you in because you're a Circle mage who entered the Chantry... If you were really an apostate, you'd avoid the place(and him) like the plague.  As for the Revered Mother, she only comments on your being a mage when you bring it up... She's striking you down because you mention it as though you think you're special or powerful because of your being a mage.

 

The question isn't how many people someone claim to fear mages because of magic(the answer is Cullen in DA2, Ser Jory, Daveth, and most of Redcliffe in Origins)... The question is how many people claim to fear mages because of the Chantry.  And that answer is zero.

[Keroko]

wcholcombe, so you speak for eveyone now? How many times in the game that someone said they feared mages, because of them throwning fireballs at you other than Cullen in DA2? As a mage, in DAO I never once got the I am afraid of you because of the chance you can use a spell on me vibe, even SER Brynt helped me, after realizing I am a mage and did not even once threaten to take me back too the circle, even before I told him I was a Grey Warden. Though the REVEREND MOTHER , tells me I will not rally a mob against you, how kind of her right, this is right after I tell her that I am a GREY WARDEN. . SO in the end this leads to my point that its the CHANTRY that leads the mobs against the mages to justify the OPPRESSION.

 

That's because you're the PC. You should talk to some mage NPC's. Wynne would have been stoned to death as a child if it weren't for the templars.

 

And while yes, the Chantry keeps the embers of mage fear smouldering, the one who lit it into a roaring inferno was a mage himself. Anders blowing up the Chantry made people completely afraid of mages once more.

 

But you know what? That doesn't matter. What matters is that people fear and despise mages. And breaking away from the Chantry, the one thing keeping that fear in check, at a time when that fear was at an all-time high, was a stupid, short-sighted decision.

 

Which was Vivienne's point.

[Lulupab]

That's because you're the PC. You should talk to some mage NPC's. Wynne would have been stoned to death as a child if it weren't for the templars.
 
And while yes, the Chantry keeps the embers of mage fear smouldering, the one who lit it into a roaring inferno was a mage himself. Anders blowing up the Chantry made people completely afraid of mages once more.
 
But you know what? That doesn't matter. What matters is that people fear and despise mages. And breaking away from the Chantry, the one thing keeping that fear in check, at a time when that fear was at an all-time high, was a stupid, short-sighted decision.
 
Which was Vivienne's point.

You don't see the problem? Anders is one mage, were people afraid of all Templars because of Meredith?

[Ryriena]

Oh so she thinks, I was saying I was somehow special by being a mage, since when is it ok to raise a mob against someone at all? I am out of the Circle, also I am not at Ostagar, so this means I am a Apostate on the run or a GREY WARDEN. And I never got that vibe from her, since with the tone of voice she gave me sounded annoyed that a mage was in the town that she couldn't raise a mob against, because I was a GREY WARDEN.


ALSO, you blame Anders because of him standing against the Chantry who spreads the fear faster than any mage could, since they never metioned him as the rallying cry for the mage rebllion. They do metion Hawkes name as the reason they rebelled.

[Keroko]

You don't see the problem? Anders is one mage, were people afraid of all Templars because of Meredith?

 

Oh I see the problem. Anders was one mage, and he committed an act that instantly made mages public enemy number one again.

 

Rational? No.

 

Fair? No.

 

Justified? No.

 

Reality? Yes.

 

To split from the Chantry when said Chantry is all that keeps this newly emboldened fear and paranoia against mages at bay means putting every mage in the world in mortal danger. To go through with such a decision without even considering the consequences it has on the rest of your kind is short-sighted and selfish.

[Ryriena]

The fear is caused by the Chantry, because of the fact it helps keep the oppression going that in itself is tyranny.

[AshenEndymion]

The fear is caused by the Chantry, because of the fact it helps keep the oppression going that in itself tyranny.

 

Again, you haven't shown any evidence of the Chantry spreading fear.  We have plenty of evidence of mages destroying things with magic, and plenty of reports of mages destroying things with magic.  Enough for the common person to think "mages certainly destroy a lot of things, they must be dangerous"... But there is nothing, from either game, of the Chantry being saying anything objectionable about mages, that isn't true...

[Keroko]

The fear is caused by the Chantry, because of the fact it helps keep the oppression going that in itself is tyranny.

 

The Chantry is only a small part of it. They don't need to go spread around Anders name to tell people a mage blew up the Kirkwall Chantry (which, by the way, is a fact and hiding it does nobody good) and they certainly don't need to constantly remind everyone that Tevinter is still alive and kicking. They also don't need to remind people about the threat of blood mages when every goddamn town seems to have at least one of the scumbags running around murdering people.

 

Sure, the Chantry does its part in keeping its scapegoat... well, a scapegoat. But you wholly overstate the amount of effort they need to put into that. The people scare themselves easily enough, and a rather sizable group of mages seem all too eager to help.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Oh I see the problem. Anders was one mage, and he committed an act that instantly made mages public enemy number one again.

 

Rational? No.

 

Fair? No.

 

Justified? No.

 

Reality? Yes.

 

To split from the Chantry when said Chantry is all that keeps this newly emboldened fear and paranoia against mages at bay means putting every mage in the world in mortal danger. To go through with such a decision without even considering the consequences it has on the rest of your kind is short-sighted and selfish.

 

Yeah, that's true. Perception is everything, and Anders shattered the perception that the population was protected from the abuse of magic by the Circles and Templars. 

 

Sure, it's not fair. But life never is. I mean, at some point, is it fair that some people are born with the ability to set armies on fire while others can't  ?

[Ryriena]

Is it fair that the Chantry oppress people that have the abillity to set armies on fire, and use them against said Armies?

[Vilegrim]

I still think that would be overestimating the significance of his existence to both factions.
 
Limiting the access of the third (and correct) option in this war based on whether or not Anders is alive would be more than scummy.

Back in your gilded cage is not acceptable. Better a hovel and freedom than that

[The Baconer]

Back in your gilded cage is not acceptable. Better a hovel and freedom than that

 

There are a lot of mages who disagree.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Vilegrim:  Says the man who goes to a grocery store to "fend for himself".

[DKJaigen]

And our point is that you have no right to decide whether we should do the same. All it does is make you just as bad as the templars.

 

The Circle system as it was was terribly oppressive and in need of an overhaul, but you make it sound as if all mages that die did so young and at the hands of templars. Which is blatantly false, given that we see elderly mages all over the place.

 

 

Ready to, yes. Willing to, also yes. Nobody denies that. But they weren't actively killing them unless the need arose.

 

The rest of Thedas doesn't need a reason. "They're mages" is usually enough. The knowledge that the Circle and its templars were there to take in those children was the only thing that halted most people from just killing children the moment they manifested their magic.

 

Now that the Circle is gone, no such feeling of safety exists anymore. In rebelling, the mages have doomed many children to die at the hands of people that fear them.

 

That is the kind of short-sightedness Vivienne is talking about.

 

Safety in a circle? what a joke. an occasional rape or murder to be topped of by the occasional annulment. The mages own the mundanes nothing. if mundanes insist of killing mages simply because they are mages then the mages every right to destroy the circles and enslave or commit genocide in return . And when your enemies are death or broken you live in safety.

[lil yonce]

They finally have a Divine willing to entertain reform, apparently for the first time in 1000 years, and they threw it in her face. When they should be working to win over the public, they provoke their fears. The Mages have done plenty to bring themselves to this point, the Templars aren't solely to blame, not in the slightest.

IMO it shouldn't be simply "entertained". To keep the circle Justinia should have promised it. And after having contemplated an Exalted March on the Kirkwall circle, suspending the college of magi, and a templar attempted sabotage of her tranquility cure research, I don't trust her actually pulling it off.

 

And time and again non-mages use the mages they fear when its convenient for them - they can't have it both ways. Also, what Anders said in DA2 I wish my inquisitor could say to Vivienne: "The people fear what we can do, but to use that fear to bludgeon us into submission is wrong. And they do it with our blessing."

[Medhia_Nox]

Also of note... Anders was:  One Mage who killed hundreds and blew up a massive building.

 

I don't recall Meredith being capable of that even in her Super Saiyan form.  She mostly just became a really good Cirque Du Soleil performer.

[herkles]

There are a lot of mages who disagree.

and city elves; more over then other mages, city elves have it worse off then the mages.

[The Baconer]

I don't recall Meredith being capable of that even in her Super Saiyan form. 

 

She did animate those giant statues. That certainly could have lead to hundreds of deaths were it not for the Gallows' isolation.