1757 réponses à ce sujet

[Imported_beer]

Vivienne has her perspective, as she should given her experiences. I won't condemn it purely because it is not mine. I am very weary of people who hate characters who don't echo their own beliefs.

[Lanavis]

Let´s see...

 

-Taken from and isolated from my parents.

 

-Forced to confront a demon with basic training at best to see if it possesses me.

 

-Not allowed to leave the tower unless the Templars say so.

 

-Can´t have romantic relationships on the open and any child will be taken from me.

 

-Watched 24/7.

 

-And some I can´t remember right now.

 

But hey, rejoice, because I have food on the table every day?

 

If she´s stupid enough to want to live in a prison I´ll be happy to put her in one.

Other issues (vary a bit by Circle/strictness of Knight Commander and Templars in charge):

-threat of death if even one mage does something that the Templar in charge warrants as worthy of annulment.

-threat of being unable to reject the advances of a Templar (again this changes greatly based on the atmosphere of a Circle and the mage/Templar relationships within said Circle)

-Being taught to hate, fear, and/or dislike yourself for what you are (e.g. the self-hating mage in DAO's Mage origin).

[Lanavis]

Vivienne has her perspective, as she should given her experiences. I won't condemn it purely because it is not mine. I am very weary of people who hate characters who don't echo their own beliefs.

Same.

[Lanavis]

So allowing more incidents like what happened with Cornor is a good thing?

You do realize that the Connor incident happened due to his parents' fear of the what the Circle would do, right?

 

If the Circle wasn't so restrictive when it came to mages (such as forcibly and usually permanently removing the mage from their family, stripping them of every title they have that isn't Circle mage related, and imprisoning them for life usually) Connor's parents would not have been too afraid of the Circle system to take him to learn to control his power.

They would never have hired Jowan and Connor most likely would never have unknowingly lured a demon to him.

 

Granted Arl Eamon would probably have died if they did take him to the Circle either way so saving Arl Eamon's life was the only silver lining.

[efd731]

Let´s see...

 

-Taken from and isolated from my parents.

 

-Forced to confront a demon with basic training at best to see if it possesses me.

 

-Not allowed to leave the tower unless the Templars say so.

 

-Can´t have romantic relationships on the open and any child will be taken from me.

 

-Watched 24/7.

 

-And some I can´t remember right now.

 

But hey, rejoice, because I have food on the table every day?

 

If she´s stupid enough to want to live in a prison I´ll be happy to put her in one.

things the circles do that are positive

Save your family from imminent death

 

constantly train you from your arrival at the circles to fight off demons(no training my ass )
 

prevent mages from being harmed by a fearful populace/sold to slavers/ harming others deliberately in an outside world they do not understand.

 

allow mages to be surrounded by people who understand them and know what they're going through

 

provide them with safety 24/7 from any threat including themselves and their fellows

 

and adequately warn them about the horrifying and disturbing consequences of giving into demons which include being a prisoner in your own body, slaughtering every single one of your loved ones, and unleash unimaginably destructive forces upon the world at large. 

 

im not pro-circle(at least for how it stands now) but come on. those repressive measures don't come from nowhere. hell, even with those measures the leader of a circle of magi was able to successfully fund and equip a blood mage serial killer, learn how to make a blood magic fueled flesh golem, and single handedly Vindicate the ravings of a red-lyrium fueled madwoman. templars abuse mages, becuase people are dicks. mages abuse literally everyone that can possibly meet the moment they start dabbling in blood magic, becuase people are dicks.

[ArvinDulku]

Let´s see...
 
-Taken from and isolated from my parents.

Cause children are more emotional, not in control of their magic and thus more likely in danger of a demon knocking on their mental door. Connor was a child, but did you see the horrors wrought through him? This is not some attempt of cruelty by the Templars, but simple logic.
 
-Forced to confront a demon with basic training at best to see if it possesses me.

 

Uh, nope, fully trained mages are put through this ritual. And considering mentally weak mages are a threat of demonic domination, this is an admittedly cruel but in the end needed test. Some mages choose to become tranquil, simply because they rather not be demonic fodder. I accept Death is not the nicest choice either though, but I rather a mentally resistant mage over one that could potentially wreck an entire circle after being taken over.
 
-Not allowed to leave the tower unless the Templars say so.

 

I fully support a change in rules here. Senior Enchanters should have more freedom, those can be trusted anyway.
 
-Can´t have romantic relationships on the open and any child will be taken from me.

 

Uh, nope. Pretty sure while not encouraged, Mages can love and marry. Hell, they even have far more sexual freedoms in comparison to the outside world. The children bit, well honestly considering they know they can't keep the kid but having them anyway despite having the means to circumvent it, well...I don't really have much sympathy.
 
-Watched 24/7.

 

Well, it ain't like demons have a "We only attempt to dominate mages between 8.00 AM - 11.00 PM" policy. I mean, it would be easier if they did, but they don't.
 
-And some I can´t remember right now.

 

Okay.
 
But hey, rejoice, because I have food on the table every day?

 

Yay!
 
If she´s stupid enough to want to live in a prison I´ll be happy to put her in one.

 

I find it interesting that the moment they have a differing opinion to you somebody is immediately labelled stupid.

[AshenEndymion]

You do realize that the Connor incident happened due to his parents' fear of the what the Circle would do, right?

 

If the Circle wasn't so restrictive when it came to mages (such as forcibly and usually permanently removing the mage from their family, stripping them of every title they have that isn't Circle mage related, and imprisoning them for life usually) Connor's parents would not have been too afraid of the Circle system to take him to learn to control his power.

They would never have hired Jowan and Connor most likely would never have unknowingly lured a demon to him.

 

Granted Arl Eamon would probably have died if they did take him to the Circle either way so saving Arl Eamon's life was the only silver lining.

 

You say "they" as if Eamon wanted Conner to be trained in secret...

 

That said, it's not the Circle(nor the Chantry) that removes titles from mages.  It's the nobility.  Eamon strips the titles from his son's name if both survive the events at Redcliffe...  And the Circle(nor the Chantry) prevents families from visiting their family at the Circle.  It's usually the family that refuses to visit...

[ShadowLordXII]

wouldn't that fact that a radical apostate ABOMINATION*(key word there ) was responsible for a mass killing be a point in the favor of a system that ruthlessly tries to prevent such things from ever occurring? also, they're taken as children becuase children are mentally weak super emotional and very open to the inlfuences of demons..and thats the age which magic usualy manifests also, the leader of that circle was sponsoring blood magic research and helping a cereal killer(deliberate). the whole point of DA2 was that the kirkwall templars and mages were utterly beyond saving. 

also, she lived in a circle, how would she not know what everything was like? she's never condemned the rebellion, just methods and ideologies. because lets be honest, that was a half-baked scheme at best. you're throwing a very isolated group with 'phenomenal cosmic power" into a populace that's rightfully terrified of them, and what makes you think that will go well? lest be honest here, the mages are just as much at fault as the templars for the events. if they policed their own than the templars wouldn't have to or wouldn't have the excuse to.

 

Not discounting these traits, but they're incidental to the fact that Meredith is wiping out the Kirkwall Circle for a crime that they did not commit. Also, she mostly disregards the actual culprit because an imaginary mob would demand more blood. Meredith's actions still make no logical or ethical sense considering what actually happened.

 

Whose fault was it that the people are terrified of mages? The Chantry. Considering their power, it's somewhat justified, but Chantry bias still blows it out of proportion and this doesn't help.

 

She's also among the rare group of mages who have acquired a degree of political power despite the official ban against mages having power. She's a member of the Empress' Court for crying out loud, I hardly think that she speaks for the general experience of mages.

 

Wynne was also initially against the mage rebellion, but at she least has enough perspective to make such a stance with merit because her experience is mostly the same as other mages. (Apart from the whole spirit-revival thing) If Wynne were to condemn the mage rebellion, then it would make sense because she has a fair perspective on the conflict and wouldn't treat the rebelling mages like "spoiled brats". Because she knows that they're anything but that.

 

Viv? I don't get that impression. Also, she lost a potential position as 1st Enchanter and stands to lose a lot in the chaos that the rebellion started, so there may be a great deal of bias within her beliefs. I suppose we won't know for certain till we hear the full story from her when the game comes out.

[thedancingdruid]

I'm a Philly girl, so I'll just leave this here...

 

"But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."

 

All in all, however, this argument which somehow devolved from Viv's one-sided rather close-minded, biased viewpoint may be moot, as from what I've read regarding Inquisition, it may have been the Templars who fired first, even though, granted the mages voted for independence.

[efd731]

You do realize that the Connor incident happened due to his parents' fear of the what the Circle would do, right?

 

If the Circle wasn't so restrictive when it came to mages (such as forcibly and usually permanently removing the mage from their family, stripping them of every title they have that isn't Circle mage related, and imprisoning them for life usually) Connor's parents would not have been too afraid of the Circle system to take him to learn to control his power.

They would never have hired Jowan and Connor most likely would never have unknowingly lured a demon to him.

 

Granted Arl Eamon would probably have died if they did take him to the Circle either way so saving Arl Eamon's life was the only silver lining.

you're ignoring that only one parent did that. Isolde. Eamon(heh same name) would've put his son in the circle and that was what isolde was afraid of. if connor had gone to the circle, he wouldve been trained to resist demons, Eamon would've been fine because no Jowan to poison him, and isolde should be stabbed for that accent only one person afraid of what the circle would do, and you can see the horrible alternative, the death of an entire village, a castle, and a posessed boy with no clue waht to do.

[Roninbarista]

For me, thankfully, the companions won't simply parrot my own viewpoints.

I like that Vivienne has her own staunch viewpoints as a pro-Circle mage. I'm sure her stance, to a degree, contrasts the other mage companions (Dorian, Solas), and it for sure is different from my own character's viewpoint. It should make for some interesting scenes, and banter. So be pro-Circle all day, or not. Welcome to the Inquisition.

[ArvinDulku]

I'm a Philly girl, so I'll just leave this here...
 
"But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."
 
All in all, however, this argument which somehow devolved from Viv's one-sided rather close-minded, biased viewpoint may be moot, as from what I've read regarding Inquisition, it may have been the Templars who fired first, even though, granted the mages voted for independence.

That right there? That was literally the very first salvo.

The magi, considering the wealth of education afforded to them, are not so stupid they didn't know exactly what that would do.

The mages fired the first shot, the isn't any question about it.

[AshenEndymion]

Whose fault was it that the people are terrified of mages? The Chantry. Considering their power, it's somewhat justified, but Chantry bias still blows it out of proportion and this doesn't help.

 

Mages are the reason people are terrified of mages... The Chantry is the reason people don't know exactly why they should be terrified of mages.

[Lanavis]

You say "they" as if Eamon wanted Conner to be trained in secret...

 

That said, it's not the Circle(nor the Chantry) that removes titles from mages.  It's the nobility.  Eamon strips the titles from his son's name if both survive the events at Redcliffe...  And the Circle(nor the Chantry) prevents families from visiting their family at the Circle.  It's usually the family that refuses to visit...

Eamon is an example of one noble doing it because the mage in question was his son.

That doesn't change the fact that in Fereldan (and seemingly in Orlais as well), noble mages are stripped of their title.

The Circles/Chantry is tied within the law system of Fereldan so what the Chantry mandates, the government enforces.

[Lanavis]

you're ignoring that only one parent did that. Isolde. Eamon(heh same name) would've put his son in the circle and that was what isolde was afraid of. if connor had gone to the circle, he wouldve been trained to resist demons, Eamon would've been fine because no Jowan to poison him, and isolde should be stabbed for that accent only one person afraid of what the circle would do, and you can see the horrible alternative, the death of an entire village, a castle, and a posessed boy with no clue waht to do.

Your reply does nothing to so much as weaken mine.

Okay so only one parent. That doesn't change the fact that if the Circles weren't so restrictive, Isolde would not have been too afraid to send her son to them.

I was responding to someone who implied that Connor being a free mage was the source of the problem in Redcliffe. When the truth is that Connor being an untrained mage was the source of the problem.

If Isolde wasn't so scared, Connor would have been sent and trained properly, which would have preempted the entire problem in Redcliffe.

[eyezonlyii]

I just think it's funny how the problem began because of Circle related mages*. The apostates we've encountered have all been fairly mild mannered (minus Velanna, but that was more an elf/human thing instead of a mage thing)

 

*Anders counts as Circle related

 

In my opinion, maybe it's the tower system that creates the high rate of abominations and blood magic; because of the stress of the way things work. Malcolm Hawke was able to train both Bethany and Mage!Hawke to not be abominations, and we know they weren't Harrowed either.

 

Morrigan wasn't Circle trained, though she had Flemeth...

 

And elven keepers train their Firsts in the art of magic, presumably without Harrowing either. 

 

I'm not saying there aren't risks from a mage in the world, but there has to be a better solution than crowding them in a tower to await death.

[n7stormrunner]

Mages are the reason people are terrified of mages... The Chantry is the reason people don't know exactly why they should be terrified of mages.

 

 

except of course when the chantry tell them all about it cause, how else are you going to justify taking a child away form their mother never to be seen again... ever. in questionable conditions too. ferelden circle nice kirkwall not so much. I'd be surpise if most mages there are allowed a stone bench to sleep on.

[Zu Long]

@Zu Long:  Oh, I am - about a great many things in real life.  Should I feel shame in it do you think?  Cause I don't.  Not at all.

 

 

To my knowledge, the only person who has suggested having black and white opinions is bad is...well...you. Since you don't feel any shame about them, I wonder why you think anyone else should, such as the pro-Mages and Pro-Elves who are so certain they are right?

 

- Do you disagree that it's totally unintelligent for a bunch of people with no ability to survive outside of their tower to suddenly run from their towers and start a war at the height of a time period where the common people hate them because of what Anders did?

 

- Or maybe you disagree that the mages haven't totally undermined their knowledge base because they fled their Circles allowing the Templars to destroy every tome and magical item they once possessed (this is happening in the story - it's not a theory).

 

- Or do you disagree that calling Vivienne privileged to support mage radicalism is equally as ignorant as anyone who says the mages have no right to be angry?

- Or perhaps, because you've seen a handful of my posts you think I'm privileged and you're not aware I don't support the current Circle system or the Templars regardless of whether or not I think the mage rebellion was the height of idiocy.

 

I'm not sure where you say me being black and white - please illuminate.

 

 

I just mentioned it because of how well you fall under your own definition- "totally right and no discussion about it." You are as convinced as they are of your own rightness, and equally impervious to persuasion. I just wasn't sure you were aware of it since you seem so annoyed at them for having the same trait.

 

As for my own views on the rebellion, I haven't given them. It makes me pretty grey and murky, doesn't it, not taking a position? But I shouldn't think it's a superior modality to having a firm stance one believes in. It's rather inferior, in many ways, actually.

[Lanavis]

I just think it's funny how the problem began because of Circle related mages*. The apostates we've encountered have all been fairly mild mannered (minus Velanna, but that was more an elf/human thing instead of a mage thing)

 

*Anders counts as Circle related

 

In my opinion, maybe it's the tower system that creates the high rate of abominations and blood magic; because of the stress of the way things work. Malcolm Hawke was able to train both Bethany and Mage!Hawke to not be abominations, and we know they weren't Harrowed either.

 

Morrigan wasn't Circle trained, though she had Flemeth...

 

And elven keepers train their Firsts in the art of magic, presumably without Harrowing either. 

 

I'm not saying there aren't risks from a mage in the world, but there has to be a better solution than crowding them in a tower to await death.

This is something that some of the anti-mage and Pro-Circle crowd need to remember.

Most of the nonCircle mages we've seen have been fairly well-adjusted and apparently with less incident of becoming abominations.

 

The stress of the Circles or the level of education in the Circles may be a reason for that difference.

[herkles]

except of course when the chantry tell them all about it cause, how else are you going to justify taking a child away form their mother never to be seen again... ever. in questionable conditions too. ferelden circle nice kirkwall not so much. I'd be surpise if most mages there are allowed a stone bench to sleep on.

 

 

of course this is ignoring all the dangers of demonic possession and abominations that mages have to be on guard for. 

[GipsyDangeresque]

I'd consider killing her.

 

Or at least exiling her from the Inquisition.

[BloodyTalon]

She is pro-circle and unlike many mages has a wider view point, and got special treatment in the court where she served.

She seems to have a colored view like most on the issue, but there is a small hint of truth in it. Most mages don't know anything about the outside and use the templars has the key point to which they judge the world has a whole.

Don't agree with her view point fully, history is filled with bloody spots like this one irl one group of people being locked up cause they are something the rest isn't. Dragon Age touches on a lot of subjects in cleaver ways.

[n7stormrunner]

of course this is ignoring all the dangers of demonic possession and abominations that mages have to be on guard for. 

 

 

 

*looks at kirkwall and ferelden circles*  I can see that putting mages in very stressful situations on a daily basis with a demon whispering in their ear about how they'll make it all better works wonderfully... oh wait we don't want more abominations.

 

it seems the circle is in fact the worse system in place for stopping that. elves do well enough as we still have them. as do many other apostate pretty much every non circle mage we ran into. even blood mages have a better track record and their dealing with demons.

[ArvinDulku]

This is something that some of the anti-mage and Pro-Circle crowd need to remember.
Most of the nonCircle mages we've seen have been fairly well-adjusted and apparently with less incident of becoming abominations.

The stress of the Circles or the level of education in the Circles may be a reason for that difference.

Disagree.

Firstly the Dalish? I would never believe anything those racist twats have to say. My experiences with their mages are far from ideal. One went full on fubar, cursing entire generations of human due to racism and rage at something their ancestors did and the refusing to lift said curse whilst his people died and the other gleefully embraces blood and nearly gets devoured by a demon. The keeper on DA2? She is fine I guess, as far as the Dalish go.

And yes, perfectly balanced non-circle magi do exist, case on point Morrigan who in cannon casually ignore a demons attempt to control quite easily whilst in the fade dream. Or of course Hawke him/herself.

But I also put forward the reason we dont see the dangerous one is in fact most are probably actively hunted by templar death squads or are imprisoned at Aeonar.

Mind, you points are perfectly valid, I just think its unlikely to be so cut and dry.

[efd731]

why is it that mage supporters here are only bringing up negatives for mages? and ignoring literally everything else? wish dean was here, she was rather articulate with this sorta thing.