1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Keroko]

How many mundanss have we've seen turn in too an abomination? That one Templar, recruit Willmord. That is proof that anyone can become abominations. And, how many had Logain killed during his time as the Hero of River Dane? I don't care that they can throw fire balls that is no reason for oppressing a group because they might do something.

Err, you do realize that this templar only turned into an abomination because a mage stuffed the demon in there, right?

That's... not going to raise a lot of votes for mage freedom. Quite the opposite.

You are posting a passing comment by a mage standing next to Grace as solid support for your stance? Okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Without evidence to the contrary, we have little reason to discard this quote.

We know Kirkwall played very loose with the rules surounding tranquility. This event is not outside the realm of possibility.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I know. But if mundanes are people so horrible, a magocracy starts to look rather good...

Not really. Even if mundanes are worse morally, mages can do worse than they can precisely because they are mages.

 

 

Ironically, Petrice has the best quote regarding this kind of thing: "We do what we can to step toward what is right. That must be enough."

Promoting the interests of a minority without considering the majority doesn't strike me as the best interpretation of this. I think protecting the majority with as little trampling on the mages as possible is a better bet. (This means I am in support of the Templar and Circle system in theory, though Meredith should never have been raised to her rank and Cullen should have fired her long before he did.)

[AshenEndymion]

Without evidence to the contrary, we have little reason to discard this quote.

We know Kirkwall played very loose with the rules surounding tranquility. This event is not outside the realm of possibility.

 

I disagree... It's a rumor.  Alain literally says it's a rumor in the screenshot(Edit: To clarify, the rumor is that it was random, not that they were made tranquil).  If we're taking rumors as fact, now, then every mage in Kirkwall is a blood mage, even the ones that we know aren't blood mages...

 

Even so, if the 3 random Starkhaven mages were made tranquil, it was still sanctioned by Orsino.  So I'm not seeing the issue.

Modifié par AshenEndymion, 28 octobre 2014 - 04:12 .

[Ryriena]

Yes I do realize that he only became one after a mage trapped him in the fade or something. Again, he allowed himself to be possessed by the demon and was a mundane was my point. After all, you are saying mundanes can't be possessed I just proved you wrong. Since if he could not be possessed then the Mage wouldn't have tired somthing like that in the first place.

[Xilizhra]

Promoting the interests of a minority without considering the majority doesn't strike me as the best interpretation of this. I think protecting the majority with as little trampling on the mages as possible is a better bet. (This means I am in support of the Templar and Circle system in theory, though Meredith should never have been raised to her rank and Cullen should have fired her long before he did.)

I don't see mage independence as doing this, and it's certainly not my goal. Step one, you can see in my signature. Step two is to create a system that can both protect and govern mages fairly, and I'm willing to work with the Chantry on this provided they accept my necessary alterations.

[Keroko]

Yes I do realize that he only became one after a mage trapped him in the fade or something. Again, he allowed himself to be possessed by the demon and was a mundane was my point. After all, you are saying mundanes can't be possessed I just proved you wrong. Since if he could not be possessed then the Mage wouldn't have tired somthing like that in the first place.

So you're saying they can't be possesed without a mage being involved. And this is supposed to... somehow prove that mages aren't as dangerous as people say?

I'm... not sure I'm following your logic. All you've done is give even more reason for people to hunt down mages. No mages, no posesion of non-mages.

 

I don't see mage independence as doing this, and it's certainly not my goal. Step one, you can see in my signature. Step two is to create a system that can both protect and govern mages fairly, and I'm willing to work with the Chantry on this provided they accept my necessary alterations.

 

Out of curiosity, what steps have you considered to combat the fear against mages?

[Xilizhra]

Out of curiosity, what steps have you considered to combat the fear against mages?

Trying to set up closer contact between mages and any mundane relatives by creating communities for them surrounding Circles was one of my ideas for this.

[Lulupab]

You are posting a passing comment by a mage standing next to Grace as solid support for your stance?  Okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

 

Visit the link above the image before making fun of yourself

[AshenEndymion]

Visit the link above the image before making fun of yourself

 

Perhaps you should read the link yourself?

 

Nowhere in that link does it say anything about any of the Starkhaven mages being made tranquil after being caught....  The only evidence of that is from Alain, and he reiterates a rumor that it was at random...

[Keroko]

Trying to set up closer contact between mages and any mundane relatives by creating communities for them surrounding Circles was one of my ideas for this.

 

Have you concidered mage-run healing centres?

 

First time someone dares to go in and recovers from a broken bone in hours instead of weeks, I'd think business would be booming.

 

Anders actually had to turn away people because he was driving himself to exhaustion.

[Lulupab]

Perhaps you should read the link yourself?

 

Nowhere in that link does it say anything about any of the Starkhaven mages being made tranquil after being caught....  The only evidence of that is from Alain, and he reiterates a rumor that it was at random...

 

There is no reason not to believe Alian because if you make pro-templar choices 3 mages are executed at random, that is canon, proven and fact. So its only natural when you make pro-mage choices they are made tranquil instead. Its Alain versus your stretching, excuse us when we stick with the former.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't see mage independence as doing this, and it's certainly not my goal. Step one, you can see in my signature. Step two is to create a system that can both protect and govern mages fairly, and I'm willing to work with the Chantry on this provided they accept my necessary alterations.

We agree on step two, at least. (And to some degree on step one.)

[Sports72Xtrm]

Aristotle once said, "The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law." Mages would be naive to think mundanes will just forget that about Kirkwall and the status quo will just force more mages to rebel using violent means like the Resolutionists. this will continue the cycle of fear and persecution. Those who aren't parasites with powerful friends like Vivienne will be open to exploitation and persecution even with in the Circle, the templars won't care what abuses go unanswered behind closed doors and neither will the Mundanes. It's why Rhys was smart to favor rebellion. A submissive mindset will do mages no good.

[Xilizhra]

Have you concidered mage-run healing centres?

 

First time someone dares to go in and recovers from a broken bone in hours instead of weeks, I'd think business would be booming.

 

Anders actually had to turn away people because he was driving himself to exhaustion.

That'd be a plus, to be sure. Or it would have been had healing magic not been crudely hacked out of the game.

 

 

We agree on step two, at least. (And to some degree on step one.)

Well, good. I don't think that any of the mage rebels will be seriously opposed to my plan, to the point of bloodshed, as I would either have the Circles be wholly independent or have mages within the Chantry's government to make policy decisions on it.

[Keroko]

Aristotle once said, "The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law." Mages would be naive to think mundanes will just forget that about Kirkwall and the status quo will just force more mages to rebel using violent means like the Resolutionists. this will continue the cycle of fear and persecution. Those who aren't parasites with powerful friends like Vivienne will be open to exploitation and persecution even with in the Circle, the templars won't care what abuses go unanswered behind closed doors and neither will the Mundanes. It's why Rhys was smart to favor rebellion. A submissive mindset will do mages no good.

 

And what about the consequences of that rebelion for mages who didn't want to rebel?

 

 

That'd be a plus, to be sure. Or it would have been had healing magic not been crudely hacked out of the game.

 

Hacked out of the game does not equal hacked out of the lore. Healing magic still exists, it's just now as difficult in the games as it was difficult in the cutscenes.
 

[Sports72Xtrm]

And what about the consequences of that rebelion for mages who didn't want to rebel?

Tough. If they are still intent on being a slave to the mundanes they can surrender to them and be made Tranquil as was their fate anyways. Or join the Grey Wardens. Those who have the will to be free will be free and those that don't are in charge of their own fate. They shouldn't be whiners blaming everyone else for their troubles, at least they have a choice now where as the Circle just imposes its rules on you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That'd be a plus, to be sure. Or it would have been had healing magic not been crudely hacked out of the game.

It's made clear that it still exists in the lore, if that helps.

[Keroko]

Tough. If they are still intent on being a slave to the mundanes they can surrender to them and be made Tranquil as was their fate anyways. Or join the Grey Wardens. Those who have the will to be free will be free and those that don't are in charge of their own fate. They shouldn't be whiners blaming everyone else for their troubles, at least they have a choice now where as the Circle just imposes its rules on you.

 

Hmm. Okay. Next one then: What about the consequences to the children who start showing signs of magic.

[Ryriena]

All I am saying, the Mage would not have gotten the idea for craziness if a mundane could not be possed just because he was not mage. That leads me to belive that they are able too equally be possed no mater if they are mundanes or ra rock for that matter, which according to lore can happen.

[Lulupab]

I would like to remind you that the Templars have pretty much lost the support of people as well.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Hmm. Okay. Next one then: What about the consequences to the children who start showing signs of magic.

Maybe they'll end up like Solas, Hawke, or aldenon and it will all work out. Hedge mages have been known to be free and not hurt anybody. Maybe the Inquisition will reform the Circles to be independent and it won't turn out like a tragedy. Some people like alistair seems to think mages can be free and not hurt anybody. and those that do will presumably be hunted by the Inquisition.Hawke turned out better. some mages commit suicide rather than be chained to the Circle. The fear of mages I believe is something that decreases the probability of a mage surviving. since the Fade emulates one's own psychology, if a mage fears his own magic and falls victim to irrational fears, the Fade becomes a dark place filled with demons. But what if the mage was not to view it like that? Would it then be a pleasant place like Solas seems to interpret it? I think Rhys puts it best when he says, "We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations. Whatever comes next, we will only survive if we learn to look upon it with new eyes."

[Medhia_Nox]

@Lulupad: I'm not sure that's true.

 

If Vivienne is to be believed - and there's absolutely zero reason to not believe her - the nobles and commoners throughout Thedas called out for something to be done against the mages after Anders.

 

The only people who did something - were the Templars. 

 

@Keroko:  The mages who didn't want to rebel - have my Inquisition.

 

But I think Vivienne also shows that not all the mages rebelled - and that the consequences against them might not have been dire if they sought refuge with the Chantry.  Or - as is Viv's case - had other means (wealth/power) to protect themselves.

[Xilizhra]

@Lulupad: I'm not sure that's true.

 

If Vivienne is to be believed - and there's absolutely zero reason to not believe her - the nobles and commoners called out for something to be done against the mages after Anders.

 

The only people who did something - were the Templars. 

Well, there's no indication that the templars are being viewed more kindly by the commoners than the mages in Inquisition.

 

Also, given the lack of Twitter in Thedas, Vivienne's information is only immediately reliable as it relates to Orlesian nobility and whatever those nobles might say about Orlesian commoners.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  You're aware that nobility was Twitter of it's time?  Ambassadors from across the world would be holding court in Orlais.

 

And you're correct - but it is not fact that the Templars are as maligned as the mages currently are and since they started from a position of greater prestige - loosing a little face for the Templars is not that same as for the mages.

 

Though there is no doubt the Red Templars are destroying that reputation daily on Thedas.

[Keroko]

I would like to remind you that the Templars have pretty much lost the support of people as well.

 

Having the majority of your order go on crazy murder sprees on anyone carying anything remotely resembling a staff tends to do that.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Lambert shot himself in the foot when he declared the Nevarran Accord null. Had he not done so, he would have had the full support of the Chantry and the people in hunting down the mages who declared the Circle separating from the Chantry.

 

 

Maybe they'll end up like Solas, Hawke, or aldenon and it will all work out. Hedge mages have been known to be free and not hurt anybody. Maybe the Inquisition will reform the Circles to be independent and it won't turn out like a tragedy. Some people like alistair seems to think mages can be free and not hurt anybody. and those that do will presumably be hunted by the Inquisition.Hawke turned out better. some mages commit suicide rather than be chained to the Circle. The fear of mages I believe is something that decreases the probability of a mage surviving. since the Fade emulates one's own psychology, if a mage fears his own magic and falls victim to irrational fears, the Fade becomes a dark place filled with demons. But what if the mage was not to view it like that? Would it then be a pleasant place like Solas seems to interpret it? I think Rhys puts it best when he says, "We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations. Whatever comes next, we will only survive if we learn to look upon it with new eyes."

 

Congratulations, you've shown you're as bad as the most zealous templar. You don't care about mages, you don't care about mage freedom or how people treat mages, you just care about your own desires. You're not laying any foundations to increase the quality of life for mages, no plans to ensure a better relation between mages and mundanes. In fact, you have no plan to actually make life better for mages at all, merely hoping that someone else will fix your mess. But as long as you get what you want, anything lost in the struggle you consider colateral damage, refusing to see that while you are flinging spells at templars, you are actually making life for all mages around Thedas worse.

 

I believe you are exactly the kind of short-sighted mage Vivienne mocks.

 

And I can't really fault her.