1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  You're aware that nobility was Twitter of it's time?  Ambassadors from across the world would be holding court in Orlais.

 

And you're correct - but it is not fact that the Templars are as maligned as the mages currently are and since they started from a position of greater prestige - loosing a little face for the Templars is not that same as for the mages.

 

Though there is no doubt the Red Templars are destroying that reputation daily on Thedas.

Actually, the templars (not even the Red ones) are being maligned by every communication we hear from someone not involved in the fighting, in the same breath as the mages. It would appear that public opinion of the templars plummeted after they abandoned the Chantry, and I can hardly blame the populace for that (especially since the Chantry will be doing most of the talking).

 

Also, I don't think Orlais' enemies would be too eager to hold court there, especially as Vivienne never brings up Montsimmard as being particularly replete with foreign nobles who want to immerse themselves in Orlais' viciously toxic culture for whatever reason.

[Xilizhra]

Having the majority of your order go on crazy murder sprees on anyone carying anything remotely resembling a staff tends to do that.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Lambert shot himself in the foot when he declared the Nevarran Accord null. Had he not done so, he would have had the full support of the Chantry and the people in hunting down the mages who declared the Circle separating from the Chantry.

Actually, I'm quite certain that Lambert left because he didn't have that support; that was his entire rationale, that the Chantry didn't want to pursue war against the independent Circle.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Actually, I'm quite certain that Lambert left because he didn't have that support; that was his entire rationale, that the Chantry didn't want to pursue war against the independent Circle.

That doesn't preclude popular support, though. (I'm not saying he has it, just that not having the Chantry's support doesn't necessarily preclude it. So this is probably moot considering your previous point.)

[wcholcombe]

Maybe they'll end up like Solas, Hawke, or aldenon and it will all work out. Hedge mages have been known to be free and not hurt anybody. Maybe the Inquisition will reform the Circles to be independent and it won't turn out like a tragedy. Some people like alistair seems to think mages can be free and not hurt anybody. and those that do will presumably be hunted by the Inquisition.Hawke turned out better. some mages commit suicide rather than be chained to the Circle. The fear of mages I believe is something that decreases the probability of a mage surviving. since the Fade emulates one's own psychology, if a mage fears his own magic and falls victim to irrational fears, the Fade becomes a dark place filled with demons. But what if the mage was not to view it like that? Would it then be a pleasant place like Solas seems to interpret it? I think Rhys puts it best when he says, "We know nothing of Tranquility, or of demons, or even our own limitations. Whatever comes next, we will only survive if we learn to look upon it with new eyes."

ok ya'll drug me back in.

 

1) Hedge mages were known to die early deaths often insane.

2) We know a geat deal about both the Fade and Demons. Magisters studied both for centuries according to the World of Thedas.

[Keroko]

Actually, I'm quite certain that Lambert left because he didn't have that support; that was his entire rationale, that the Chantry didn't want to pursue war against the independent Circle.

 

If the mages ran away from Chantry control, the Chantry wouldn't have had any choice. The populace is terrifed of mages, they would have called for the Chantry to bring them back in line.

[Xilizhra]

If the mages ran away from Chantry control, the Chantry wouldn't have had any choice. The populace is terrifed of mages, they would have called for the Chantry to bring them back in line.

And the Chantry would have pursued some kind of peaceful compromise, as is Justinia's wont.

[wcholcombe]

All I am saying, the Mage would not have gotten the idea for craziness if a mundane could not be possed just because he was not mage. That leads me to belive that they are able too equally be possed no mater if they are mundanes or ra rock for that matter, which according to lore can happen.

That is immaterial, a demon possessing a normal human or a normal rock or even a tree or skeleton is not nearly the threat that possessing a mage is. Also, in order for a demon to possess a non mage, the veal has to be thin, whereas they can possess a mage anytime they have a connection to the fade. 

 

If a demon possesses a knight and gets its bearings, it is only as dangerous as the physical danger it presents, if it possesses a mage, not only does it have access to the mages powers, but it is also fully able to use its powers from the fade.  In addition being able to use magic is more natural to a demon as it allows them to shape the world around them with their mind similar to how things work in the fade.

[Adanu]

Still waiting for that source that Vivienne has no idea what mages are going through.


A political loyalist who seems to have a much clearer picture of the consequences of this rebelion for mages as a whole than the actual rebels themselves.

Not sure if that's a compliment for Vivienne, or a sign of just how out of touch the rebels are...

 

Kick a dog enough, don't be surprised when the dog bites back. Vivienne can preach about 'consequences' all she wants, but apparently she likes being kicked.

 

The rebels don't.

[Ryriena]

Blah blah mages are dangerous even though Willmord proves that them posssesing mundanes are equally as dangerous.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Blah blah mages are dangerous even though Willmord proves that them posssesing mundanes are equally as dangerous.

No he doesn't. For more information please see the last time I replied to exactly this argument.

[Keroko]

And the Chantry would have pursued some kind of peaceful compromise, as is Justinia's wont.

 

Doubtful. A peaceful solution takes time, and with a paranoid population calling for the Chantry to stop the mages before they resurrect the Tevinter Imperium, time is something she would not have.

 

Which is another perk of Lambert's betrayal. With unity in the Chantry shattered and the people just wanting any resolution to the conflict, the various sides involved are more willing to listen.

 

Kick a dog enough, don't be surprised when the dog bites back. Vivienne can preach about 'consequences' all she wants, but apparently she likes being kicked.

 

The rebels don't.

 

The rebels don't care about innocents getting caught in the crossfire either, apparently.

 

How exactly does that make them better than the Chantry or the templars?

 

Blah blah mages are dangerous even though Willmord proves that them posssesing mundanes are equally as dangerous.

 

But they can only do that when a mage stuffs them in a mundane. Which means the solution to the problem is still "control mages."

[Sports72Xtrm]

ok ya'll drug me back in.

 

1) Hedge mages were known to die early deaths often insane.

2) We know a geat deal about both the Fade and Demons. Magisters studied both for centuries according to the World of Thedas.

And yet Solas, a hedge mage, will be helping my inquisitor in stopping the breach. As will cole a spirit. I'd prefer to see the pros and cons of hedge magic and spirits for myself, and not trust the credibility of those who spout fear of unconventional methods because they profiteered from the status quo and fear change.

[Heimdall]

And yet Solas, a hedge mage, will be helping my inquisitor in stopping the breach. As will cole a spirit. I'd prefer to see the pros and cons of hedge magic and spirits for myself, and not trust the credibility of those who spout fear of unconventional methods because they profiteered from the status quo and fear change.

Well, I have theories that Solas is much more than a hedge mage. I mean, the last time an apostate emerged from the woods to lend aid to our cause, apparently merely to help, she had plenty of ulterior motives.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Congratulations, you've shown you're as bad as the most zealous templar. You don't care about mages, you don't care about mage freedom or how people treat mages, you just care about your own desires. You're not laying any foundations to increase the quality of life for mages, no plans to ensure a better relation between mages and mundanes. In fact, you have no plan to actually make life better for mages at all, merely hoping that someone else will fix your mess. But as long as you get what you want, anything lost in the struggle you consider colateral damage, refusing to see that while you are flinging spells at templars, you are actually making life for all mages around Thedas worse.

 

I believe you are exactly the kind of short-sighted mage Vivienne mocks.

 

And I can't really fault her.

I'll take my chances in exploring the unconventional whereas the chantry for centuries ignore the faults of their system and coerced any who criticizes it into silence with Tranquility and violence.

[AshesEleven]

Kick a dog enough, don't be surprised when the dog bites back. Vivienne can preach about 'consequences' all she wants, but apparently she likes being kicked.

 

The rebels don't.

 

Or maybe Vivienne is too intelligent and not so whiny to think a sheltered life of education and privilege is somehow akin to being imprisoned.

 

The Circle system needs reforming, but Kirkwall was the worst Circle.  And now a bunch of innocent people are dying because the mages are too childish to see why they've been put in the situation they have been.  

[wcholcombe]

And yet Solas, a hedge mage, will be helping my inquisitor in stopping the breach. As will cole a spirit. I'd prefer to see the pros and cons of hedge magic and spirits for myself, and not trust the credibility of those who spout fear of unconventional methods because they profiteered from the status quo and fear change.

Say what now?  We know nothing about Solas's background, but the fact that he actually casts obvious spells means he isn't a hedge mage.  Hedge mages in Thedas were/are like shamans or such, they develop a method for casting spells that doesn't really look like magic.  they get caught up in rituals and such but don't actually consciously cast spells.

 

Solas is not a hedge mage in any way shape or form.  He is an apostate yes.

 

As for Cole, I don't even know where that came from.  I merely stated that Tevinter has studied the fade and demons for centuries before the 1st blight.  They mapped out large parts of it, met both good spirits and demons. They are actually credited with creating the classification of Spirits(good) and demons (evil) that is typically wrongly associated with the chantry.  I was merely questioning the intelligence of Rhys' statement when there is a plethora of knowledge on the fade, spirits, and demons.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Say what now?  We know nothing about Solas's background, but the fact that he actually casts obvious spells means he isn't a hedge mage.  Hedge mages in Thedas were/are like shamans or such, they develop a method for casting spells that doesn't really look like magic.

 

Solas is not a hedge mage in any way shape or form.  He is an apostate yes.

 

As for Cole, I don't even know where that came from.  I merely stated that Tevinter has studied the fade and demons for centuries before the 1st blight.  They mapped out large parts of it, met both good spirits and demons. They are actually credited with creating the classification of Spirits(good) and demons (evil) that is typically wrongly associated with the chantry.  I was merely questioning the intelligence of Rhys' statement when there is a plethora of knowledge on the fade, spirits, and demons.

Hedge mages are those who have no Circle training. We know solas has never been in the Circle or studied from the Circle. He learned by dreaming in the Fade and gaining first hand experience. He is by definition a hedge mage.

[Xilizhra]

Doubtful. A peaceful solution takes time, and with a paranoid population calling for the Chantry to stop the mages before they resurrect the Tevinter Imperium, time is something she would not have.

 

Which is another perk of Lambert's betrayal. With unity in the Chantry shattered and the people just wanting any resolution to the conflict, the various sides involved are more willing to listen.

Whatever paranoiacs make up the peasantry, they wouldn't be able to force the Chantry into doing anything, particularly since I doubt that they're united in their opinion mages to anything near the extent that you claim. If that were true, we wouldn't have situations where Kirkwall's populace was starting to unite against the templars of its own accord.

[DKJaigen]

Doubtful. A peaceful solution takes time, and with a paranoid population calling for the Chantry to stop the mages before they resurrect the Tevinter Imperium, time is something she would not have.

 

This is the medieval time . what the people think is not worth mentioning not to mention are they completely powerless to oppose it. the real power lies with the nobility and they are quite a bit more level headed then the average peasant. 

[wcholcombe]

Hedge mages are those who have no Circle training. We know solas has never been in the Circle or studied from the Circle. He learned by dreaming in the Fade and gaining first hand experience. He is by definition a hedge mage.

Did you read Asunder?

 

It defined in there what a hedge mage was.

 

Someone outside the circle is an apostate.

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Hedge_magic

 

 

Hedge magic (a derogatory term created by the Chantry^[1]), also known as "arcanist derangement"^[1] among scholars, is a form of magical expression different than that of typical mages. Hedge mages are untrained magic-users who wield powers developed outside of conventional teaching^[2]. Some of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped, their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being entirely (depending on the mage's nature).^[3]

Hedge magic was studied extensively by Magister Allineas at the height of the Towers Age. He coined the term "arcanist derangement" and posited that magical talent is like a flowing river. When expressed through a mage, it finds a proper outlet through spellcraft. Left to its own devices it flows unexpectedly, and thus hedge mages are created.^[1] Once becoming a hedge mage, there is no turning back – they cannot learn and cast spells as normal mages know them.^[4]

“Hedge mages” and “witches” do not always employ forbidden magic, quite often their talents lie in the creation of charms, the use of curses and the ability to change their own forms.^[5] Their abilities may include being able to commune with spirits, as well. Still, those mages possess power no Circle spell could replicate and their unpredictable ability is deemed a threat by the Chantry.

Prior to the Circle's formation, hedge magic was commonly practiced in the form of ancient traditions and rituals, with knowledge handed down from one generation of practitioners to the next. Examples of hedge mages include the so-called "witches" of the Chasind wilders and the "shamans" of the Avvar barbarians.^[3]Qunari Saarebas are also essentially hedge mages with the focus on destruction.^[6]

Hedge mages live chaotic lives, and are frequently lured into darkness, temptation and sometimes even insanity. Their lives are often short as a result of this wild talent. The term "arcanist derangement" reflects this propensity toward madness in such mages.^[7]

 

Strangely the Wiki lists Solas as a hedge mage, but considering he casts spells exactly the same as circle mages, that makes no sense at all.  The Chasind, Avvar, and Saarebas all cast entirely different magic then the circles, whereas Solas and even the Dalish cast the same magic.

[AshesEleven]

Did you read Asunder?

 

It defined in there what a hedge mage was.

 

Someone outside the circle is an apostate.

 

Didn't Patrick Weekes call Solas a hedge mage though?  

[wcholcombe]

Didn't Patrick Weekes call Solas a hedge mage though?  

Yes, but it doesn't make any sense. Gaider has stated in his interview that technically Saarebas are Hedge Mages because they essentially practice an entirely different form of magic then circles, tevinter, dalish etc.  However, we know that Solas just like the Vashoth Inquisitor mage casts magic exactly the same as circle mages.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Did you read Asunder?
 
It defined in there what a hedge mage was.
 
Someone outside the circle is an apostate.

Yes I did and hedge magic are those who attribute to faith, or will, or to another being entirely (depending on the mage's nature) as defined by the codex http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_Apostates. And the circle's narrow view of hedge mages are a pejorative for a mage who lacks Circle training.https://twitter.com/...732132645191680
Solas has had no contact with the Circle of Magi or any Dalish tutors (though he has had contact with clans during his travels),Solas taught himself how to master his own magical abilities and by definition by the Circle of Magi a hedge mage. Though what the circle considers as truth may also be subjective and not objective since their research is biased to cater to chantry doctrine so I stand by my point that we don't know all there is to know about hedge magic and spirits.

[Beerfish]

I would like to remind you that the Templars have pretty much lost the support of people as well.

I've seen pretty well no evidence of this in games or books.

[Keroko]

I'll take my chances in exploring the unconventional whereas the chantry for centuries ignore the faults of their system and coerced any who criticizes it into silence with Tranquility and violence.

 

Except you're not exploring anything. You're just making life miserable for all mages while waiting for someone to walk in and fix it.

 

 

Say what now?  We know nothing about Solas's background, but the fact that he actually casts obvious spells means he isn't a hedge mage.  Hedge mages in Thedas were/are like shamans or such, they develop a method for casting spells that doesn't really look like magic.  they get caught up in rituals and such but don't actually consciously cast spells.

 

Solas is not a hedge mage in any way shape or form.  He is an apostate yes.

 

According to the devs, he is a hedge mage.

 

His casting of the usual spells is just gameplay mechanics.

 

Whatever paranoiacs make up the peasantry, they wouldn't be able to force the Chantry into doing anything, particularly since I doubt that they're united in their opinion mages to anything near the extent that you claim. If that were true, we wouldn't have situations where Kirkwall's populace was starting to unite against the templars of its own accord.

 

It was a slave revolt that destroyed Tevinter. The Chantry knows full well the power of the common man when united.

 

And the population is quite unanimous in its fear of magic. Kirkwall's populace was just starting to get beyond irked with the templars ruling their lives (a lovely bit of poetic hypocrisy there, really).