1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Sports72Xtrm]

A slave revolt after a blight....

[Xilizhra]

It was a slave revolt that destroyed Tevinter. The Chantry knows full well the power of the common man when united.

 

And the population is quite unanimous in its fear of magic. Kirkwall's populace was just starting to get beyond irked with the templars ruling their lives (a lovely bit of poetic hypocrisy there, really).

Actually, it was a barbarian horde that ate and incorporated slave revolts.

 

And we've seen several ordinary Kirkwallers who wanted more leniency for mages, so there's still no unanimity.

[Keroko]

Actually, it was a barbarian horde that ate and incorporated slave revolts.

 

And we've seen several ordinary Kirkwallers who wanted more leniency for mages, so there's still no unanimity.

 

Before Anders kindly reminded the ordinary people what mages are capable of, yes.

 

I've seen pretty well no evidence of this in games or books.

 

Watch the streams. Unaffiliated parties hate both mages and templars to the point where both sides are shot when they start fighting near a populated area.

[Xilizhra]

Before Anders kindly reminded the ordinary people what mages are capable of, yes.

After which we have no information beyond Vivienne's hearsay and people being annoyed at the war.

[lil yonce]

It was a slave revolt that destroyed Tevinter. The Chantry knows full well the power of the common man when united.

 

And the population is quite unanimous in its fear of magic. Kirkwall's populace was just starting to get beyond irked with the templars ruling their lives (a lovely bit of poetic hypocrisy there, really).

Slaved helped, but the armies of Andraste's Alamarri warlord husband fought Tevinter's - and certainly w/ the help of natural disasters and/or powerful magic. Likely Andraste's IMO if the latter is true.

[wcholcombe]

 

 

 

 

According to the devs, he is a hedge mage.

 

His casting of the usual spells is just gameplay mechanics.

See now that doesn't work though, because that is the exact reason the Qunari Inquisitor doesn't use Sareebas magic, because it is an entirely different form of magic. Gaider said that almost exactly. So I find it surprising that they would say solas is a Hedge Mage when they have previously stated that Hedge mages don't use the same form of magic as circle mages and such.

 

Whatever, my interpretation from Asunder was that Hedge mages didn't actually cast spells but did rituals and weren't actually aware they had magical talent.  If that has changed or I misinterpreted then so be it.   I just wish BW would make their lore a little more rigid.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

See now that doesn't work though, because that is the exact reason the Qunari Inquisitor doesn't use Sareebas magic, because it is an entirely different form of magic. Gaider said that almost exactly. So I find it surprising that they would say solas is a Hedge Mage when they have previously stated that Hedge mages don't use the same form of magic as circle mages and such.

 

Whatever, my interpretation from Asunder was that Hedge mages didn't actually cast spells but did rituals and weren't actually aware they had magical talent.  If that has changed or I misinterpreted then so be it.   I just wish BW would make their lore a little more rigid.

The term hedge mage, as I understand it, can refer either to someone whose magic is improperly trained and manifests in the form of powers even other mages think are weird, or to an apostate who has never been part of the Circle. (There is a large degree of overlap since the Circle makes damn sure that the former does not happen in their ranks.) Given how similar Solas's abilities seem to be to Vivienne's and Trevalyan's, I think he's the latter.

[Keroko]

After which we have no information beyond Vivienne's hearsay and people being annoyed at the war.

 

All evidence we have so far points to Viviene being right. People practically spitting out the word mage when talking about them, mages being shot on sight just as easily as rabid templars, while we've yet to see a single non-mage promoting mage freedom or defending mages.

 

 

See now that doesn't work though, because that is the exact reason the Qunari Inquisitor doesn't use Sareebas magic, because it is an entirely different form of magic. Gaider said that almost exactly. So I find it surprising that they would say solas is a Hedge Mage when they have previously stated that Hedge mages don't use the same form of magic as circle mages and such.

 

Whatever, my interpretation from Asunder was that Hedge mages didn't actually cast spells but did rituals and weren't actually aware they had magical talent.  If that has changed or I misinterpreted then so be it.   I just wish BW would make their lore a little more rigid.

 

Explaining how someone who's lived in the wilds for most of his life and is a self-taught mage knows the exact same spells as a Circle mage is a hopeless cause. It's just that when lore meets gameplay, lore tends to give way first.

 

Like how lorewise, healing magic takes time and is very exhausting, but gameplay-wise that only was the case for cutscenes. Mages in DA2 were tossing out healing spells left, right and center when the actual gameplay started.

[Ryzaki]

And the fact that we don't know how many Templars are like them and you're trying to minimize the suffering of the mages by dismissing anecdotes as isolated and not indicative of the whole,,,

 

As for VIviienne, spoken like a true elitist who doesn't understand what actually went on on those CIrcles, and seems to not get that some people would prefer having lives outside of the Templars slavery. I figured I'd hate Vivienne, and I was right.

Yeah right at trying to minimize the suffering of mages. I'm very willing to take those templars to task for their behavior. But that's not enough apparently because I don't want the circles completely shut down.

 

Well I love her

[wcholcombe]

All evidence we have so far points to Viviene being right. People practically spitting out the word mage when talking about them, mages being shot on sight just as easily as rabid templars, while we've yet to see a single non-mage promoting mage freedom or defending mages.

 

 

 

Explaining how someone who's lived in the wilds for most of his life and is a self-taught mage knows the exact same spells as a Circle mage is a hopeless cause. It's just that when lore meets gameplay, lore tends to give way first.

 

Like how lorewise, healing magic takes time and is very exhausting, but gameplay-wise that only was the case for cutscenes. Mages in DA2 were tossing out healing spells left, right and center when the actual gameplay started.

I get that, but I find it strange that they would make the gameplay/lore distinction hold true on Sareebas magic, but don't really care for it with Hedge Mages.  I guess I am mostly just confused at the need to call him a hedge mage when previously they have always been apostates--Dalish/Morrigan/Flemeth--and Hedge Mages were defined differently.

[Keroko]

Incidentally, I wonder if the devs are reading this thread and just stare at eachother going "You're saying that one quote resulted in this!?"

 

I get that, but I find it strange that they would make the gameplay/lore distinction hold true on Sareebas magic, but don't really care for it with Hedge Mages.  I guess I am mostly just confused at the need to call him a hedge mage when previously they have always been apostates--Dalish/Morrigan/Flemeth--and Hedge Mages were defined differently.

 

That's because for Sarebaas it was a convenient match. They don't have to make an entirely unique style of magic for a single race and they have a... well, not solid, but at least an explanation for why the qunari Inquisitor doesn't use Sareebas magic. Two birds, one stone.

 

For Solas, it's the other way around. And since making, animating and balancing an entirely unique magic style for just one character because lore means a lot of time, effort and money, they said "blah, can't do. Just give him a unique specialization and call it quits."

[nightwolf667]

 

According to the devs, he is a hedge mage.

 

His casting of the usual spells is just gameplay mechanics.

 

 

See, that excuse doesn't fly for me. If you're going to define a character as doing magic differently from the others then you need to build a separate set of gameplay mechanics that enforce those rules within the game to support the lore. A wizard and a sorcerer can learn similar (sometimes the same) spells in D&D, but the way they cast magic is different and the rules they work under in the game are different. Forgetting all the other extra magic classes, roll up a wizard or a sorcerer in Baldur's Gate II, Neverwinter Nights, or Neverwinter Nights II and you'll get a different play experience. Tell me sorcerers and wizards are different in D&D and I will believe you because the gameplay mechanics support those differences.

 

In Dragon Age II, the Sarebaas had access to a different kind of casting that the player couldn't access. Similarly, they didn't cast spells like the player did. You tell me that they're working off an entirely different kind of understanding of magic and casting then I believe you. The game shows that in actual practice. The devs can wish for Solas to be a spirit shaman like Gann all they want or a magic caster like the Sarebaas from II, but until they step up their game and create a different spell list for him with new rules then he's just another apostate the same as Mage!Hawke or a Circle Mage like Vivienne. From what I can tell, he doesn't even get a special accompanying specialization like Morrigan does right out of the gate. (Rift Mage being a truncated, possibly depowered compilation of spells from the base spell list in past games doesn't really count as a "special and unique form of magic we've never seen before".) If he's drawing from the Circle spell list that all mages get then he's the same as them and the only difference is textual flavoring that is ultimately meaningless.

 

If I stick Solas into my party in place of Vivienne or Dorian it's a personal choice based on preference or necessity surrounding the quest lines in story (influence gain). He has a different specialization than the other two (Rift Mage) but the way he goes about casting and how I can potentially build him is a minimal difference to say choosing between Elanee (Druid), Sand (Wizard), Qara (Sorcerer), Zhajaeve (Cleric), Grobnar (Bard), and Ammon Jerro (Warlock). While I can build all these characters in ways that similarly mimic each other, each class brings something unique to the table and in some cases have access to very useful powers that the others are denied. It's an actual choice based on how I want to play because each one will substantially change my gameplay experience.

 

I get that it's a money problem, but it's also a writer problem where they're refusing to work with what they have or can do. It gets confusing because they're asking the player to relate to a special class of character that isn't there and consistently tell you they're different when they're not. At the same time, it undercuts the previously established lore about how magic is supposed to work and even (potentially) flies in the face of player experience in previous games. The devs keep pitching the fact that Solas has unique opinions on the Fade which, while interesting, would be a hell of a lot less condescending if they'd been introduced at a conceptual level with Morrigan in the first game. What I'm saying is that I'd be a lot more understanding toward his position if I hadn't spent the first two games avoiding being murdered by demons and the Fade in general.

 

On the subject of the thread, I agree with Vivienne. The mage rebellion is a poorly thought out waste of time that can only end in tragedy for all sides. Anders never had a plan other than "freedom" and no idea what they were going to do with it or how they were going to keep it once they achieved it. It does remind me of the teenager version of a rebellion. All the thought went into how they'd suffered injustice and none to how the rest of the world (which they have to live with) would react to it. Between the all too common abominations that regularly murder the peasants and the Tevinter slavers, I can see how it's not just Chantry "propaganda" that's a problem for them.

[wcholcombe]

Incidentally, I wonder if the devs are reading this thread and just stare at eachother going "You're saying that one quote resulted in this!?"

 

 

That's because for Sarebaas it was a convenient match. They don't have to make an entirely unique style of magic for a single race and they have a... well, not solid, but at least an explanation for why the qunari Inquisitor doesn't use Sareebas magic. Two birds, one stone.

 

For Solas, it's the other way around. And since making, animating and balancing an entirely unique magic style for just one character because lore means a lot of time, effort and money, they said "blah, can't do. Just give him a unique specialization and call it quits."

but that is my point they already did that with Morrigan and Flemeth and referring to them as apostates was fine.  I just find it strange that Solas has to be referred to as a Hedge mage. It isn't a big deal all in all, it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

[herkles]

Here is a question what label is applied to the Mortalitsi?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Here is a question what label is applied to the Mortalitsi?

Aren't they associated with their local Circles?

[herkles]

Aren't they associated with their local Circles?

 

Nope. the Order of the Mortalitasi are their own order of mages. They are not part of the circle of magi as far as I know; they are however connected to the Nobility and the royal family in particular. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nope. the Order of the Mortalitasi are their own order of mages. They are not part of the circle of magi as far as I know; they are however connected to the Nobility and the royal family in particular. 

If they're not in the Circle they are by the more inclusive definition hedge mages.

[wcholcombe]

Nope. the Order of the Mortalitasi are their own order of mages. They are not part of the circle of magi as far as I know; they are however connected to the Nobility and the royal family in particular. 

Who knows. they were started by a Magister, and since all Magisters belong to circles.........again who knows, we really know very little about them.

[AshenEndymion]

So, wait... Mage!Hawke and Bethany are hedge mages now?

[Heimdall]

So, wait... Mage!Hawke and Bethany are hedge mages now?

Well, they were trained in circle Magic by a Circle Mage, so no.

[Heimdall]

Hedge mage seems to be a catch all term for Mages that use magic in ways the circle finds strange, it does not necessarily mean a Mage does not or cannot use circle spells

[Yermogi]

From what I can see, Vivienne is one of the most elite members of Orlesian nobility, and she has a lot of power and respect. Most mages aren't even seen as human (or elven) by the average person. Mages have very few freedoms, generally no rights, and are treated badly by most. I think she's under some illusion that all mages have it as good as the mages in her own Circle, but what we've seen from the Kirkwall Circle, that is obviously not true. Also, it's been stated that the mage Inquisitor flees with other mages to the big meeting at the beginning because a fanatic tries to assassinate him/her. That does not say to me that the rebelling mages are overreacting and being childish. That tells me that mages are fighting for their lives, even those who are still in Circles.

[efd731]

From what I can see, Vivienne is one of the most elite members of Orlesian nobility, and she has a lot of power and respect. Most mages aren't even seen as human (or elven) by the average person. Mages have very few freedoms, generally no rights, and are treated badly by most. I think she's under some illusion that all mages have it as good as the mages in her own Circle, but what we've seen from the Kirkwall Circle, that is obviously not true. Also, it's been stated that the mage Inquisitor flees with other mages to the big meeting at the beginning because a fanatic tries to assassinate him/her. That does not say to me that the rebelling mages are overreacting and being childish. That tells me that mages are fighting for their lives, even those who are still in Circles.

If thats what you can see, then you either need to admit that you need your eyes checked or that you're coming to this conversation with massive preconceptions. She's a mage. That means she went through everything that the other mages wentthrough. Further more, she was appointed to be the magical court jester to the Orlesian court, to perform magic tricks for the nobilities amusement.
As things stand she is currently the exemplar of what mages can do while working within the system. She had the ear of an empress and the respect of the Orlesian nobility supposedly, if more people had gone her route than the Anders route there would have been no need for rebellion.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So, wait... Mage!Hawke and Bethany are hedge mages now?

I think that's a complicated question, since we've heard one definition of hedge mage in the Codex and another in Asunder with no indication that the latter completely replaces the former. Under the first definition they are, since that definition is any apostate who has never been part of the Circle: they are thus first generation hedge mages. Under the second definition, in which a hedge mage has unique powers due to being improperly trained and not being able to adequately control their magic, they are not: their training is from all we can tell exactly the same as that of a Circle mage.

[Yermogi]

If thats what you can see, then you either need to admit that you need your eyes checked or that you're coming to this conversation with massive preconceptions. She's a mage. That means she went through everything that the other mages wentthrough. Further more, she was appointed to be the magical court jester to the Orlesian court, to perform magic tricks for the nobilities amusement.
As things stand she is currently the exemplar of what mages can do while working within the system. She had the ear of an empress and the respect of the Orlesian nobility supposedly, if more people had gone her route than the Anders route there would have been no need for rebellion.

False. That does NOT mean she went through everything everyone else did. I am willing to bet that she did not experience personally any of the things that other mages had. She probably hasn't been physically attacked. She probably hasn't been sexually assaulted. So she had to do magic tricks. Other mages were TURNED INTO ZOMBIES WHO DO EVERYTHING THEY'RE TOLD. Which one is worse, do you think?

 

And just because SHE did it doesn't mean that everyone else is able to. Sure, she got the Empress' ear, but that's being in the right place at the right time. She was chosen to be the court jester, not anyone else. 

 

Meanwhile, in Kirkwall, mages were being raped, made Tranquil, being abused, being mistreated, and fearing for their lives. I guarantee you that Vivienne's Circle was different, or she did favors for the Templars to get where she is. Anders felt his rebellion was necessary because he had seen and experienced all of this first-hand and was merged with a Spirit of Justice which made it impossible for him to stand aside.

 

What makes you think that mages would be able to get to Vivienne's position when they are viewed by Templars as monsters and a sub-species? Mages are not treated well. They are not given rights. The vast majority of them did not have the chance to get to where Vivienne is. 

 

Also, your statement about me having my eyes closed (that whole first sentence in fact) was fairly rude. Just because you disagree with someone does not mean you get to insult their intelligence.