1757 réponses à ce sujet

[herkles]

well kirkwall's first enchanter was Orsino who if you don't remember supported the research of Quintian. But of course none of that would have happened if it wasn't for the evil circle. Its never the mages fault its all the chantry and templar's fault. 

[andar91]

I thought it was extremely interesting to hear her perspective. I think what she was basically saying was, "Yes, the templars freaked out, but only because somebody literally killed hundreds in a single blast and nearly unraveled a city. Have some perspective, people."

 

ON THE OTHER HAND

 

I also think Vivienne's personal biases are extremely important. She's got lots of privileges most mages don't have, and is also the leader of the Circle. We don't know everything about her past, but she certainly rests more comfortably in the Circle than just your average mage, I think. Her position gives her a lot of power. And we know she's ambitious, and the Circle provides a hierarchy, which is something for ambition to latch onto.

[JerZey CJ]

I think she earned a throw out of the metaphorical airlock. Didn't like her when we first heard about her and what she was about, and this pretty much cements it.

[Celtic Latino]

It just shows that Vivienne is pragmatic and reasonable. She probably sees it all from a 'big picture' standpoint, especially regarding what Anders did and how it made things so much worse. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@andar91:  You sir (or madam), have clear vision.

 

@Zu Long:  I'm still trying to figure out how I'm black and white about the mage/templar war.  I see both sides being valid and both sides being very wrong.  It's likely I won't be given an option to crush both sides - so I'll end up choosing the Templars because I believe the evidence proves that not only are the mages wrong, but they were short sighted and foolish in their efforts.  The Templars, I believe, can be changed. 

 

And you should express yourself. 

 

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.  I'm a firm believer. 

[n7stormrunner]

well kirkwall's first enchanter was Orsino who if you don't remember supported the research of Quintian. But of course none of that would have happened if it wasn't for the evil circle. Its never the mages fault its all the chantry and templar's fault. 

 

 

you beat someone tell they snap whose fault is it... the fact the same thing happen at one of the nicer circle says alot. not saying they shouldn't be train but making it basically life in prison with a chance for a death penalty wasn't the best choice. the mage rebellion is the fall of the old tevinter magisters with the roles reversed.

 

 

see the end of da 2 as why osirino had reasons to hide any blood mages he knew/found. the fact he want murderously suicidal says alot.  

[Medhia_Nox]

@n7stormrunner: I hate this argument so much.

 

Not every abused child becomes a serial killer... and you don't let the ones who DO become serial killers go on a rampage because of a bad childhood.  That's so preposterous. 

[eyezonlyii]

Disagree.

Firstly the Dalish? I would never believe anything those racist twats have to say. My experiences with their mages are far from ideal. One went full on fubar, cursing entire generations of human due to racism and rage at something their ancestors did and the refusing to lift said curse whilst his people died and the other gleefully embraces blood and nearly gets devoured by a demon. The keeper on DA2? She is fine I guess, as far as the Dalish go.

And yes, perfectly balanced non-circle magi do exist, case on point Morrigan who in cannon casually ignore a demons attempt to control quite easily whilst in the fade dream. Or of course Hawke him/herself.

But I also put forward the reason we dont see the dangerous one is in fact most are probably actively hunted by templar death squads or are imprisoned at Aeonar.

Mind, you points are perfectly valid, I just think its unlikely to be so cut and dry.

It's not cut and dry, but when you think about it, I'm sure an apostate does whatever they can to not draw attention to themselves, especially if they were raised outside of the tower. It's kind of like how may people in the United states have this perception of first generation immigrants (whether here legally or not) are the trouble makers. In reality (from what I've read about in classes), it's their children and children's children who get into the most trouble, while at the same time becoming more Americanized.

[llandwynwyn]

I wonder why posters are more empathic to a dangerous group that enjoys the freedom of fair education, food, warm bed and health. Oh, yes, it's because they're contained and many are under the heels of abuse. They don't deserve abuse, indeed.

 

But it's funny how casteless dwarves suffer more abuse than mages, yet you don't see people claiming for their justice. No one adopts them as their pet cause. Weird.

[andar91]

@andar91:  You sir (or madam), have clear vision.

 

Thank you. And I am indeed a sir.

 

I also wanted to add that, while I like her as a character, I'm not sure I love how easily she minimizes or seems to handwave (it might not be as bad in the full game) away some very real problems in Circles. Templars have an awful lot of power over mages, and we know that some of them abuse it and seem to get away with it (like Anders referencing them beating or raping mages). Like, again, not much to go on at the moment, but...lady, do NOT try to tell me that all those mages just rebelled for no reason.

 

That said, big picture is good, and personally, I do agree that the Circles are needed. I just think they should be secular or at least less vilified, and mages need more control and freedoms.

[AshenEndymion]

you beat someone tell they snap whose fault is it...

It's the fault of the person who snapped...

 

Unless you're suggesting that it's not Meredith's fault she snapped and ordered the annullment of Kirkwall's Circle....

[Lanavis]

Disagree.

Firstly the Dalish? I would never believe anything those racist twats have to say. My experiences with their mages are far from ideal. One went full on fubar, cursing entire generations of human due to racism and rage at something their ancestors did and the refusing to lift said curse whilst his people died and the other gleefully embraces blood and nearly gets devoured by a demon. The keeper on DA2? She is fine I guess, as far as the Dalish go.

And yes, perfectly balanced non-circle magi do exist, case on point Morrigan who in cannon casually ignore a demons attempt to control quite easily whilst in the fade dream. Or of course Hawke him/herself.

But I also put forward the reason we dont see the dangerous one is in fact most are probably actively hunted by templar death squads or are imprisoned at Aeonar.

Mind, you points are perfectly valid, I just think its unlikely to be so cut and dry.

Since you replied to me, I assume that your comment is meant as a rebuttal against my game-supported assertion that nonCircle mages may actually be less in danger of becoming unwilling abominations/lose control of their powers and accidentally harm others or themselves than Circle mages.

 

"One went full on fubar, cursing entire generations of human due to racism and rage at something their ancestors did"

That was due to Zathrien's bigotry, which has nothing to do with being a mage and all to do with his prejudice against humans.

 

"the other gleefully embraces blood and nearly gets devoured by a demon"

She embraced blood magic as gleefully as she embraced magic in general. On second fact, she may have actually been even less gleeful with blood magic since she always was aware of the danger and never was foolish enough to actually trust ANY spirit since her Dalish upbringing taught her that all spirits are dangerous, not just demons. Don't forget that Merrill brought Hawke along so that Hawke could kill her if she became possessed.

Merrill was perhaps the most responsible blood mage in game so far. She handled the risks without succumbing to possession or the belief that demons just want to be bffs AND when she knew that she was walking into a dangerous situation wherein possession was possible, she made sure to bring along someone well prepared to kill her if it came to that.

Don't forget that she survived for approximately ten years (if not more) as a blood mage without any negative consequences directly due to that (isolation from her clan doesn't count since that was due to their reactions and not the blood magic itself).

"But I also put forward the reason we dont see the dangerous one is in fact most are probably actively hunted by templar death squads or are imprisoned at Aeonar."

That is possible. It is merely not supported in-game whereas my claim has some support in-game.

 

"Mind, you points are perfectly valid, I just think its unlikely to be so cut and dry."

I agree. That's why I made sure to say that "The stress of the Circles or the level of education in the Circles may be a reason for that difference" instead of using "is".

[GipsyDangeresque]

I wonder why posters are more empathic to a dangerous group that enjoys the freedom of fair education, food, warm bed and health. Oh, yes, it's because they're contained and many are under the heels of abuse. They don't deserve abuse, indeed.

 

But it's funny how casteless dwarves suffer more abuse than mages, yet you don't see people claiming for their justice. No one adopts them as their pet cause. Weird.

 

Are you kidding? No matter how good you are, what your origin or morals, the only course of action you should ever take in Orzammar as the Grey Warden is to ensure Bhelen takes the throne so that the casteless can gain more rights and acceptance as citizens. And you must destroy the Anvil, so that none of the nobility can force the less fortunate to go through the procedure as volunteers dry up.

[eyezonlyii]

@n7stormrunner: I hate this argument so much.

 

Not every abused child becomes a serial killer... and you don't let the ones who DO become serial killers go on a rampage because of a bad childhood.  That's so preposterous. 

No but if someone is attacked and they kill their attacker in self defense, do you charge them?

 

What gets me specifically about DA2 is I can't remember any good mages outside the party actually doing anything. You had multiple instances of Templars trying to help mages or at the very least reign in their brothers/sisters, but the mages were never shown to be doing anything good. It was always blood magic here, abomination there. 

[n7stormrunner]

@n7stormrunner: I hate this argument so much.

 

Not every abused child becomes a serial killer... and you don't let the ones who DO become serial killers go on a rampage because of a bad childhood.  That's so preposterous. 

 

true see most circle mages for the other outcome. the fact you ignored the fact I said they should be trained and not let go crazy tell me that talking isn't going to go anywhere... and my time on the linrary computer is runiing out.

 

the argument is that everyone one will it's you shouldn't be surpised when one does. 

 

 

No but if someone is attacked and they kill their attacker in self defense, do you charge them?

 

What gets me specifically about DA2 is I can't remember any good mages outside the party actually doing anything. You had multiple instances of Templars trying to help mages or at the very least reign in their brothers/sisters, but the mages were never shown to be doing anything good. It was always blood magic here, abomination there. 

 

 

by the laws I'm used to not often.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ander91: I think you'll find that she knows "why" they rebelled, she just doesn't agree with the fact "that" they rebelled. 

 

There's a LOT of other questions you can ask her (as per the video) that they didn't go into . 

I think you're going to find that Vivienne was making great headway in making real change for the mages - and fools like Fiona and Adrian screwed it all up. 

[eyezonlyii]

I wonder why posters are more empathic to a dangerous group that enjoys the freedom of fair education, food, warm bed and health. Oh, yes, it's because they're contained and many are under the heels of abuse. They don't deserve abuse, indeed.

 

But it's funny how casteless dwarves suffer more abuse than mages, yet you don't see people claiming for their justice. No one adopts them as their pet cause. Weird.

Most likely because the dwarves are so insular, that they don't talk about the casteless, therefore no one knows about them, so they don't get help. A vicious circle if you will. 

[Zu Long]

@andar91:  You sir (or madam), have clear vision.

 

@Zu Long:  I'm still trying to figure out how I'm black and white about the mage/templar war.  I see both sides being valid and both sides being very wrong.  It's likely I won't be given an option to crush both sides - so I'll end up choosing the Templars because I believe the evidence proves that not only are the mages wrong, but they were short sighted and foolish in their efforts.  The Templars, I believe, can be changed. 

 

And you should express yourself. 

 

Lead, follow, or get out of the way.  I'm a firm believer. 

 

 

You're black and white because you're certain. You are correct. Convincing you otherwise is impossible. Exactly the same as those you seemed to despise in your previous post.

 

I decline, for the moment. I'm still listening to you.

 

Hmm...what about observe, circle around and poke at whatever seems off balance?

[Hellion Rex]

 

I like playing things not if I agree with her but what my characters believe. My human noble lady for one will definatly be in agreement with her.

 

Here is what is said. 

 

Spoiler

Inquisitor: Tell me about the Circle of Magi.

 

Vivienne: Of course. Tell me what you wish to know.

 

Inquisitor: How did we come to this state, with the Circles in revolt?

 

Vivienne: You, my dear, are far too wise to have not realized that many of our colleagues live with their eyes closed. Safe inside their towers, they only thought of the Templars and their own resentment. Kirkwall gave the world a reason to remember its fear of magic. A mage killed hundreds with a snap of their fingers. Across Thedas, a new tangible fear of magic grew. Commoners and nobles alike called out to the Chantry for protection. But the malcontents in the towers thought nothing of this.

 

They cared only for themselves and their anger at the new Templar restrictions. When a mage attempted to assassinate Divine Justinia, again, the mages protested the investigation. The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the intolerable conditions imposed by the Templars, sparing no thought to the fact that magic was more feared in the aftermath of these attacks than it had been since Tevinter's day. So long as they have their freedom, they could care little for riots or angry mobs or pitting mages against each other.

 

Ahem, twas me that wrote that up.

 

But I absolutely agree with her.

[The Baconer]

She's not wrong.

 

Of course, one of the good things borne from this war (or, rather, bittersweet) is that now the people of Thedas have learned firsthand that the Templars are not as qualified as they claim to be. It should prove for a more balanced endeavor to change the Circle system.

[herkles]

why is it that mage supporters here are only bringing up negatives for mages? and ignoring literally everything else? wish dean was here, she was rather articulate with this sorta thing.

 

you also have to keep in mind that for the mage supporters, the fact that a serial killer sadistically murders innocents makes him a victim. which is surely a comfort to those who were lost, same thing with anders. keep in mind that the mages troubles and their problems are never there own. people turn to blood magic and star killing their wives for power, not the mages fault. It is all that damned chantry, templar fault for everything that goes wrong to mages. It is never the mage's own fault.

[Nerevar-as]

I find it interesting that the moment they have a differing opinion to you somebody is immediately labelled stupid.

Frankly? Viv reminds me too much of my grandmother saying things weren't bad during the dictatorship if you didn't oppose it and went along with it, because some things worked. Stupid is the nicest thing I have to say about such way of thinking.

Mages are no more dangerous than any noble who gets up on the wrong foot, but those aren't caged despite causing much more pain.

BTW, freedom is worth fighting everything that stands against it. If a mob, a loyalist or whoever wants to cage me, they better be ready to face the consequences.

And why on Thedas do apostates have less trouble with blood magic and demons? Intended writing or not?

[herkles]

Ahem, twas me that wrote that up.

 

But I absolutely agree with her.

 

Ah, then credit goes to you then.

[Hellion Rex]

you also have to keep in mind that for the mage supporters, the fact that a serial killer sadistically murders innocents makes him a victim. which is surely a comfort to those who were lost, same thing with anders. keep in mind that the mages troubles and their problems are never there own. people turn to blood magic and star killing their wives for power, not the mages fault. It is all that damned chantry, templar fault for everything that goes wrong to mages. It is never the mage's own fault.

That's a bunch of BS. I support mages but I don't believe that at all. People who are pro mage don't have to believe in that methodology at all. So quit painting us all with the same brush. It's same as saying all Templars are rapists.

[AshenEndymion]

Frankly? Viv reminds me too much of my grandmother saying things weren't bad during the dictatorship if you didn't oppose it and went along with it, because some things worked. Stupid is the nicest thing I have to say about such way of thinking.

Mages are no more dangerous than any noble who gets up on the wrong foot, but those aren't caged despite causing much more pain.

 
I think the Tevinter Imperium of old(Circa -before the existence of darkspawn) proves that uncaged mages can cause much more pain than the average "noble" ever could...  Beside, at present, mundanes in Thedas are nobles(in Andrastian nations) because they've forced the mages into Circles.  Allow the mages to be free for more than 100 years, and you'll likely find every nation ruled by mages...