1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Sports72Xtrm]

Vivienne spent all that time kissing Celene's ass and now she is neither the First enchanter nor Celene's magical advisor. She was replaced by Morrigan. Just goes to show how mages' lives are expendable in more ways than one.  How is it that people think she has the mages' best interests at heart when all she's done is garner power for herself? First enchanters are supposed to be picked by the mages but Vivienne's rise in the Circle is by bowing to the mundanes every whim and they reward her by being the magi's hand picked dictator of the Circle mages. And I doubt she'd be any kind of advocate to those under her care.

[Medhia_Nox]

One thing I have learned from these boards - is that head canon has this strange way of altering facts.

 

People are literally inventing who Vivienne is to support their hatred for her. 

[Yermogi]

I do not hate Vivienne. I do not hate her character or her views. I think she is interesting and will enjoy having conversations with her with my pro-mage Inquisitor. And yes, we don't know much about her personality, but it has been said that she is Pro-Circle and is quoted as having a low opinion of mages who are rebelling. 

[efd731]

False. That does NOT mean she went through everything everyone else did. I am willing to bet that she did not experience personally any of the things that other mages had. She probably hasn't been physically attacked. She probably hasn't been sexually assaulted. So she had to do magic tricks. Other mages were TURNED INTO ZOMBIES WHO DO EVERYTHING THEY'RE TOLD. Which one is worse, do you think?

 

And just because SHE did it doesn't mean that everyone else is able to. Sure, she got the Empress' ear, but that's being in the right place at the right time. She was chosen to be the court jester, not anyone else. 

 

Meanwhile, in Kirkwall, mages were being raped, made Tranquil, being abused, being mistreated, and fearing for their lives. I guarantee you that Vivienne's Circle was different, or she did favors for the Templars to get where she is. Anders felt his rebellion was necessary because he had seen and experienced all of this first-hand and was merged with a Spirit of Justice which made it impossible for him to stand aside.

 

What makes you think that mages would be able to get to Vivienne's position when they are viewed by Templars as monsters and a sub-species? Mages are not treated well. They are not given rights. The vast majority of them did not have the chance to get to where Vivienne is. 

 

Also, your statement about me having my eyes closed (that whole first sentence in fact) was fairly rude. Just because you disagree with someone does not mean you get to insult their intelligence.

and what? youre saying that she didnt have to experience those things. neither did all the other mages. the minority of mages that those things happened to are just that, a minority. if it not happening to vivienne is grounds for her being excluded from the "good mages" category in your head-canon, why isnt it grounds for all the other mages being excluded?

[TheTurtle]

False. That does NOT mean she went through everything everyone else did. I am willing to bet that she did not experience personally any of the things that other mages had. She probably hasn't been physically attacked. She probably hasn't been sexually assaulted. So she had to do magic tricks. Other mages were TURNED INTO ZOMBIES WHO DO EVERYTHING THEY'RE TOLD. Which one is worse, do you think?

 

And just because SHE did it doesn't mean that everyone else is able to. Sure, she got the Empress' ear, but that's being in the right place at the right time. She was chosen to be the court jester, not anyone else. 

 

Meanwhile, in Kirkwall, mages were being raped, made Tranquil, being abused, being mistreated, and fearing for their lives. I guarantee you that Vivienne's Circle was different, or she did favors for the Templars to get where she is. Anders felt his rebellion was necessary because he had seen and experienced all of this first-hand and was merged with a Spirit of Justice which made it impossible for him to stand aside.

 

What makes you think that mages would be able to get to Vivienne's position when they are viewed by Templars as monsters and a sub-species? Mages are not treated well. They are not given rights. The vast majority of them did not have the chance to get to where Vivienne is. 

 

Also, your statement about me having my eyes closed (that whole first sentence in fact) was fairly rude. Just because you disagree with someone does not mean you get to insult their intelligence.

Are you saying Anders the man who lived in one of the most lenient circles in all of Thedas, who treated escaping like a game has experienced worse than Vivienne who at this point we know little about. I also thought that it was long since established that Kirkwall was uber f'ed up and almost everyone on either side was slightly if not completely batshit.

[Yermogi]

and what? youre saying that she didnt have to experience those things. neither did all the other mages. the minority of mages that those things happened to are just that, a minority. if it not happening to vivienne is grounds for her being excluded from the "good mages" category in your head-canon, why isnt it grounds for all the other mages being excluded?

I would like very much for you to find something that says the mages that were abused were a minority. From everything that we've seen and been told in the games and books, mages are by and large mistreated by the Templars. Maybe not to a horrible, miserable extent, but they are mistreated. Most of them aren't allowed to leave their Tower (or whatever building they have). They are literally placed under house arrest unless they are given permission to go onto the grounds. Oh, and the grounds? Probably just the front yard. In the case of the Gallows, it was the courtyard. Nothing else. The fact that Vivienne got to go to a PALACE is remarkable. Most mages don't get the chance to leave the city, let alone the Circle.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Are you saying Anders the man who lived in one of the most lenient circles in all of Thedas, who treated escaping like a game has experienced worse than Vivienne who at this point we know little about. I also thought that it was long since established that Kirkwall was uber f'ed up and almost everyone on either side was slightly if not completely batshit.

Yeah I remember when the templars attempted to kill him as an apostate both before and after he became a grey warden. Real fun game that all mages have to play.

[efd731]

Yeah I remember when the templars attempted to kill him as an apostate both before and after he became a grey warden. Real fun game that all mages have to play.

after several escape attempts and the inferred murder of at least one templar. 

[TheTurtle]

Yeah I remember when the templars attempted to kill him as an apostate both before and after he became a grey warden. Real fun game that all mages have to play.

Real fun game he chose to play seven damn times.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Real fun game he chose to play seven damn times.

Yeah how dare people disliked being imprisoned and hunted for the rest of their lives. Malcolm Hawke, Jowan, Anders; he wasn't the first, certainly won't be the last.

[AshenEndymion]

I would like very much for you to find something that says the mages that were abused were a minority. From everything that we've seen and been told in the games and books, mages are by and large mistreated by the Templars. Maybe not to a horrible, miserable extent, but they are mistreated. Most of them aren't allowed to leave their Tower (or whatever building they have). They are literally placed under house arrest unless they are given permission to go onto the grounds. Oh, and the grounds? Probably just the front yard. In the case of the Gallows, it was the courtyard. Nothing else. The fact that Vivienne got to go to a PALACE is remarkable. Most mages don't get the chance to leave the city, let alone the Circle.

 
If you view mistreatment as "For your own protection, you must stay in the tower unless you have permission to leave", then yes, every mage is mistreated.  I disagree with the premise that the prior sentence is mistreatment.  I also believe that punishing mages for practicing blood magic, consorting with demons, or leaving the Circle with little intention of ever coming back, is also not mistreatment.

[herkles]

Yeah how dare people disliked being imprisoned and hunted for the rest of their lives. Malcolm Hawke, Jowan, Anders; he wasn't the first, certainly won't be the last.

 

Then why did he return over and over and over? More over from how anders acted, he thought it was a game a joke. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Then why did he return over and over and over? More over from how anders acted, he thought it was a game a joke. 

He didn't return by choice, the templars caught him and forced him to return. You know, like an escaped prisoner.

[TheTurtle]

Yeah how dare people disliked being imprisoned and hunted for the rest of their lives. Malcolm Hawke, Jowan, Anders; he wasn't the first, certainly won't be the last.

Never said that stop putting words in my mouth. You said the Templar's tried to kill him for escaping yeah after he ran off seven times that was my point. He literally treated it like a game he says so himself this isn't something I'm making up for giggles. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Then why did he return over and over and over? More over from how anders acted, he thought it was a game a joke. 

As Sports notes, he didn't return of his own free will. As for the fact that he acted like it was a game, it's either that or act as serious as he thought the situation truly was and allow himself to give in to despair. Much of his popularity in Awakening is due to the fact that he didn't do so until DA2. (At least not often, since if you honestly look you can see the anger that Justice intensifies even in Awakening!Anders.)

[Medhia_Nox]

Too bad they didn't kill him.

 

He's like one of those murderers who gets off on a technicality and then goes and kills a dozen girls.

 

The little ****** even abandoned the Grey Wardens to commit his terrorist act.. he's such scum.

[AshenEndymion]

He didn't return by choice, the templars caught him and forced him to return. You know, like an escaped prisoner.

 

Well, he is an escaped prisoner... At least during attempts 2 through 8... His first jaunt leaving the Circle was more of an illegal border crossing.  He didn't have a visa(permission to leave), and so he was taken back to the Circle.

 

Perhaps if Anders had actually been mistreated at some point, I might be more accepting of his unbelievably selfish and stupid behavior.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Well, he is an escaped prisoner... At least during attempts 2 through 8... His first jaunt leaving the Circle was more of an illegal border crossing.  He didn't have a visa(permission to leave), and so he was taken back to the Circle.

 

Perhaps if Anders had actually been mistreated at some point, I might be more accepting of his unbelievably selfish and stupid behavior.

Would it make you feel better if it was Alain commiting the terrorist act? I mean he got raped by Ser Karras. Or maybe Bethany when she's not afraid of resenting her circumstances for fear of alienating her family? Who would it take for people to not be insensitive to the plight of mages?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sports72Xtrm:  The "plight" of the mages is head canon.  More like the madness of Kirkwall. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

http://dragonage.wik...state's_Courage

http://dragonage.wik...y:_Cold-Blooded

http://dragonage.wik...ficarum_Regrets

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Reimas (check out her background)

 

 

I'm sure all this mage urest appeared out of thin air? I wonder if people would still be uncompassionate if it was a sister, or an offspring, or spouse who was a mage or if mages and mundanes are just naturally estranged. If there is a Maker in that world, well... his creations are full of dysfunction.

[AshenEndymion]

Would it make you feel better if it was Alain commiting the terrorist act? I mean he got raped by Ser Karras. Or maybe Bethany when she's not afraid of resenting her circumstances for fear of alienating her family? Who would it take for people to not be insensitive to the plight of mages?

 
I don't believe Alain is telling the truth.  I believe he's plying for sympathy like Anders continually does.  And while Bethany is afraid of things happening in the Circle, she never reports that any "mistreatment" actually happens while she's there.
 
But to answer your question:  Wynne.  And since she doesn't cry out "We have been/are being oppressed"(and it's unlikely she ever will), I see no reason to treat to the so-called "plight of mages" as worse than the treatment of elves...  And that's assuming I treat it as anything more than the overactive imagination of a few mages....

[Sports72Xtrm]

 
I don't believe Alain is telling the truth.  I believe he's plying for sympathy like Anders continually does.  And while Bethany is afraid of things happening in the Circle, she never reports that any "mistreatment" actually happens while she's there.
 
But to answer your question:  Wynne.  And since she doesn't cry out "We have been/are being oppressed"(and it's unlikely she ever will), I see no reason to treat to the so-called "plight of mages" as worse than the treatment of elves...

Well Wynne is gone now but she did rebel in the end. As did her son.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@Sports72Xtrm:  The "plight" of the mages is head canon.  More like the madness of Kirkwall. 

Not really. It's not just Kirkwall: two templars (edit: Thank you Sports) get away with the worst kind of manslaughter (leaving a child to starve) in White Spire. Even in Ferelden, Gregoir in his younger days apparently beat a pregnant mage woman and got away with it. He mellowed out as his beard greyed, apparently, but that he apparently wasn't called on this disturbs me. Now, Gregoir in his later years represents exactly what the Circle ought to be in a lot of ways, but the fact remains that everything else that we see of the Circle is at best flawed. I still believe it to be better than not having a Circle, but the fact remains that it's due for some serious reforms.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sports72Xtrm:  So - you read a story about mages that were killed and you think they're all just innocent. 

 

Let me present to you:

- Wynne:  Allowed to walk freely.

- Finn: Allowed to walk freely.

- Ines:  Allowed to walk freely.

- Vivienne:  Very likely allowed to walk freely.

 

If you say:  "There are Templars who totally abuse their powers."  We'll be in agreement.  If you say: "The Chantry's hold over the mages has become abusive."  We'll be in total agreement. 

 

But the term "abuse" doesn't always mean the harshest treatment possible... abusing a friendship doesn't mean you're beating your friend, or locking him in a basement, it means you're taking advantage of privilege.

 

@Riversdalewhiteflash:  Are you equally concerned about the "plight of the peasant"?  Because I'm sure these kind of cruel abuses happen all the time to commoners throughout Thedas.

 

My point is that the mages aren't suffering some vast conspiracy of abuses while mundanes are dancing round the maypole.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Not really. It's not just Kirkwall: two TEMPLARS get away with the worst kind of manslaughter (leaving a child to starve) in White Spire. Even in Ferelden, Gregoir in his younger days apparently beat a pregnant mage woman and got away with it. He mellowed out as his beard greyed, apparently, but that he apparently wasn't called on this disturbs me. Now, Gregoir in his later years represents exactly what the Circle ought to be in a lot of ways, but the fact remains that everything else that we see of the Circle is at best flawed. I still believe it to be better than not having a Circle, but the fact remains that it's due for some serious reforms.

FTFY