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[DarthLaxian]

They were not allowed to walk freely. They were given leave to take trips owing to the amount of obedience they had demonstrated over the years. In a way they are the prisoners who succumbed to Stockholm syndrome.

 

Simply having one's natural freedom taken away out of fear is already an enormous abuse. That alone would justify the use of force when resisting. The fact that there are cases of physical abuse, mental abuse and sexual abuse as well adds further justification.

 

Indeed - and it shows, when Wynne needs it "beaten" (literally) into her (well, her fellow mages') skull(s) that the circles are wrong (she only acts, after the Lord Seeker (Lambert van Reeves) plays party-crasher (with lots' of templars and seekers) at the mages conclave (without acting on the divines orders - so he more or less becomes a traitor and oath-breaker...I hope he survived the peace-summit - so I can run him through myself...or let Cassy (she is after all a seeker...or at least was one) do it!)...there was enough evidence of the templars/the chantry abusing their authority (torture, rape, violations of privacy, unsanctioned rights of tranquility etc.) so a rebellion could have been justified without that last bit (!)  - but she (and her fellow equitarians) always voted against it (hell, in a way they are worse than the chatry-appologists/loyalists...at least they do it because they fully believe it is the right thing to do)

 

Using force in resistance against ones rights and freedoms being restricted is a right the German "Grundgesetz" (note: Germany does not have a real constitution - even if most people claim we do (we don't as the people didn't vote on one) ...in fact Germany is still an occupied country under the law (no peace-treaty for the second world war (!)) - we just have that provisional constitution that was draw up for the western parts of germany held by the allied forces after the war) - and I guess other (democratic!) countries have something similar (the right to resist a government if it becomes unjust or even a dictatorship) and it should be in Thedas, too (freedom is a basic human right - and no one should be allowed to take it away, just because someone is different (that's called discrimination and wrong...hell, if you declare mages a race, than it's racism, too)...that's like treating black people like scum (which is wrong as we all know!)...hell, it's like what happened to the people of Japanese descent before and during world war two (in the US), they were locked up - ostensibly for their own protection, too (which was sometimes true as well, like with the mages), while other people got their land, money etc. (or let's go a step further: It's like what my home-country of Germany did to the Jews during the Nazi-Regime...at least almost (I would argue that the right of tranquility is worse than being put to death!))

 

greetings LAX

ps: Sorry for the comparison(s) - I don't want to offend anyone, but that's just how I see it (I hate it when governments/organisations seem to thing they can infringe on peoples rights - like the NSA does in RL (and the templars/seekers/the chantry do in DA)...freedom is one of the few things (in my opinion) worth fighting and dying for...so I understand the mages...not that I would want the templars dead - I would want the order to remain, but not as the military arm of the chantry, but as a sort of police-force (like SWAT or the German GSG-9) that protects mundanes from mages (while the circles should be under mage control - with harrowed mages being allowed to leave and live their lifes like they please...even allowed to inherit estates, titles etc.)...I agree templars are a necessity with mages around, but mages shouldn't be controlled by outsiders (it's like putting only white people in charge of blacks (thus we have the racism issue again), when they can do it themselves - and just as good (the spirit-school of magic works as well against mages as templar-skills do!)

[DarthLaxian]

Mages can't have mundane lives because they are not mundane. It's as simple as that.

 

And blacks can't live like whites do, just because their skin-colour is not white?...that's racism and discrimination (yes: mages can be dangerous - I don't deny that, but most of them aren't and don't want to be...putting them all behind bars, just because some are law-breaking killers/criminals is still wrong...it's like locking up all blacks, just because some of them are members in the worst gangs you can dream off...or locking up all Japanese, because some of them are part of the Yakuza or all Italians because some are part of the Mafia, or the Russians (russian Mafia), the Irish because of the Irish-Mob etc. -.- so short-sighted...I am with Aldenon (the character) on this!)

 

Even more so, if you make training (at the very least learning to control ones magic) mandatory (and the Harrowing for someone who wants to be truly free - that's infringing on freedom, too but only for a limited time and that's IMHO acceptable) and keep the templars (and seekers...as the templars internal affairs/spy-division) around to protect mundanes (and creat a secondary order (comprised of mages trained specially to counter other mages - even blood-mages) in order to support them, watch over Harrowings and training (and catching runners...without being allowed to kill them (except for self-defense or the defense of others...no abuse allowed) and establish due-process (laws that govern the circle, with an appeals process for punishments and courts deciding the punishment (courts of peers - an apprentice would be judged by his fellow apprentices, an enchanter by other enchanters and so on)...)

 

greetings LAX

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  Do you mean in Asunder?  

 

What specifically bad happened?

 

@DarthLaxian:  While I don't agree that mages can't lead largely mundane lives - mundanes and mages have very deep fundamental differences in who they are that go WAY beyond skin tone.  

[wcholcombe]

The White Spire is shown to be nearly as harsh as Kirkwall. I think Ferelden was just as much an exception... and even then, it wasn't good.

Actually until recently the white spire was a pleasant place to live according to Rhys. He even States the previous knight commander before the assassination attempt was a good man. He talks about going to tevinter with his master as an apprentice and even leaving the tower to go shopping in val royeaux prior to Kirkwall.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  Do you mean in Asunder?  

 

What specifically bad happened?

Kids being thrown into pits and starving to death, mages disappearing mysteriously with no one caring at first, at least one massacre of an enchanter conclave, and people only ever being let out to go on specific missions.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  

 

- Don't the Templars hide the fact they let a kid starve to death out of shame?  Why feel shame if the tower is so corrupt? 

 

- Lambert is investigating the disappearances through most of the book.  Interesting how you blame the Templars for this - you know who else didn't care about mages disappearing?  The mages in the tower.

 

- You're hardly picking "every day" events.  These - like so many other nitpicks - are cherry picked while conveniently missing context.

 

- And your last one if the BIG beef people have.  And - as Rhys explains - was not always that way.  Again - without context of what Anders did.

 

Nothing exonerates the Templars crimes - they will be reformed and the guilty will be punished in my Inquisition.  But I'll never side with the mages so long as they refuse to take any responsibility for who they are, and what they are capable of, and the damage their selfish actions are causing throughout Thedas (and I see VERY little of that in DA products to date)

[Ryriena]

Yeah I remember when the templars attempted to kill him as an apostate both before and after he became a grey warden. Real fun game that all mages have to play.

Yup I remeber that too and blamed him for the death of Templars that the darkspawn attack had done on him too boot. That's so much fun! Yup that such great place to live because we're given permission to go shopping or to the front yard, yippy.

We as mages can not go see our familes, who want to see us, I know my mother and father were crying, when both my wardens that are mages had been taken by the Templars to the cricle away from her parnets location. And forbidden too see her because of the distance and being a commoner for my Elven mage. Have no rights to have a family or be married and have to worry about being killed by the Templars in Anullment because I might be possed, or raped or tortured. That such a great life scarcasm.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  

 

- Don't the Templars hide the fact they let a kid starve to death out of shame?  Why feel shame if the tower is so corrupt? 

 

- Lambert is investigating the disappearances through most of the book.  Interesting how you blame the Templars for this - you know who else didn't care about mages disappearing?  The mages in the tower.

 

- You're hardly picking "every day" events.  These - like so many other nitpicks - are cherry picked while conveniently missing context.

 

- And your last one if the BIG beef people have.  And - as Rhys explains - was not always that way.  Again - without context of what Anders did.

 

Nothing exonerates the Templars crimes - they will be reformed and the guilty will be punished in my Inquisition.  But I'll never side with the mages so long as they refuse to take any responsibility for who they are, and what they are capable of, and the damage their selfish actions are causing throughout Thedas (and I see VERY little of that in DA products to date)

What Anders did shouldn't have mattered at all, given that he was an apostate and not at all a Circle mage.

 

In any case, so far as I can tell, their actions aren't causing any more damage throughout Thedas than those of the templars.

[Beerfish]

And blacks can't live like whites do, just because their skin-colour is not white?...that's racism and discrimination (yes: mages can be dangerous - I don't deny that, but most of them aren't and don't want to be...putting them all behind bars, just because some are law-breaking killers/criminals is still wrong...it's like locking up all blacks, just because some of them are members in the worst gangs you can dream off...or locking up all Japanese, because some of them are part of the Yakuza or all Italians because some are part of the Mafia, or the Russians (russian Mafia), the Irish because of the Irish-Mob etc. -.- so short-sighted...I am with Aldenon (the character) on this!)

 

Even more so, if you make training (at the very least learning to control ones magic) mandatory (and the Harrowing for someone who wants to be truly free - that's infringing on freedom, too but only for a limited time and that's IMHO acceptable) and keep the templars (and seekers...as the templars internal affairs/spy-division) around to protect mundanes (and creat a secondary order (comprised of mages trained specially to counter other mages - even blood-mages) in order to support them, watch over Harrowings and training (and catching runners...without being allowed to kill them (except for self-defense or the defense of others...no abuse allowed) and establish due-process (laws that govern the circle, with an appeals process for punishments and courts deciding the punishment (courts of peers - an apprentice would be judged by his fellow apprentices, an enchanter by other enchanters and so on)...)

 

greetings LAX

Bringing race into the discussion really hurts your credibility on the issue, as in really badly.

 

I keep seeing pro mage freedomers talk about only some mages are killers or evil or have a bad agenda thus why should they all be closely monitored.  There are bad seeds in every faction but mages can do a fair bit more damage than your average person.  However that isn't even the point.  The point is that you can have the very nicest most benevolent person who happens to be a mage.  At any time they can become possessed and turn into something that will kill hundreds.  At any time.

[Xilizhra]

Bringing race into the discussion really hurts your credibility on the issue, as in really badly.

 

I keep seeing pro mage freedomers talk about only some mages are killers or evil or have a bad agenda thus why should they all be closely monitored.  There are bad seeds in every faction but mages can do a fair bit more damage than your average person.  However that isn't even the point.  The point is that you can have the very nicest most benevolent person who happens to be a mage.  At any time they can become possessed and turn into something that will kill hundreds.  At any time.

And it's extremely rare and only seems to happen in special circumstances, namely a damaged Veil or a demonic cascade.

 

There have not, I've noticed, been any mentions of abominations in Redcliffe.

[The Elder King]

And it's extremely rare and only seems to happen in special circumstances, namely a damaged Veil or a demonic cascade.
 
There have not, I've noticed, been any mentions of abominations in Redcliffe.

Do you mean in DAI?

[Xilizhra]

Do you mean in DAI?

Yes, that. From that distress letter.

[Beerfish]

What Anders did shouldn't have mattered at all, given that he was an apostate and not at all a Circle mage.

 

In any case, so far as I can tell, their actions aren't causing any more damage throughout Thedas than those of the templars.

No Anders was a circle mage, he just kept escaping, yeah that makes him an apostate but was not some mage that never was in a circle like Bethany.

 

As far as I can tell mages on the loose have done far more damage to the common citizen than any Templars.  Merediths sister, Connor, the mage dude in Asunder that managed to get a whole keep killed off by his 'research'.  Serial killer dude who made mommy into franken mommy.  Mage in the lake Calenhad circle, and this is not even mentioning the Dalish keepers who seem to be specialists at screwing up their magic and getting their clans killed off.

[Xilizhra]

No Anders was a circle mage, he just kept escaping, yeah that makes him an apostate but was not some mage that never was in a circle like Bethany.

 

As far as I can tell mages on the loose have done far more damage to the common citizen than any Templars.  Merediths sister, Connor, the mage dude in Asunder that managed to get a whole keep killed off by his 'research'.  Serial killer dude who made mommy into franken mommy.  Mage in the lake Calenhad circle, and this is not even mentioning the Dalish keepers who seem to be specialists at screwing up their magic and getting their clans killed off.

I refer to the mage rebellion in particular. And Anders was removed from the Circle for good by joining the Grey Wardens.

[Medhia_Nox]

This is exactly why I can't side with the Pro-Mages regardless of being a mage player.  

 

There's an excuse for every vile thing mages do.  

 

@Xilizhra:  Yes, the first indicator that Anders is slime is his willingness to join the Wardens to escape the mages to flee the Wardens to hide in a terrorist cell with a shield of Fereldens to bide his time to make his bomb.  

[Xilizhra]

This is exactly why I can't side with the Pro-Mages regardless of being a mage player.  

There's an excuse for every vile thing mages do.  

Deeply incorrect. When have I ever excused, say, Danarius?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  For what crime?  Slave trading?   C'mon - even you have to know you're stretching your rhetoric beyond credulity here.

 

You know I mean crimes committed by mages with magic.

 

You clearly hate Vivienne for the crime of not agreeing with you.

[Ryriena]

Their is not an excuse for everything a mage has done. I don't seem to excuse Danaruis, after all, he is a monster.

[Ryriena]

@Xilizhra: For what crime? Slave trading? C'mon - even you have to know you're stretching your rhetoric beyond credulity here.

You know I mean crimes committed by mages with magic.

You clearly hate Vivienne for the crime of not agreeing with you.

How about killing a young boy for being the batteries for his blood magic? Or the fact we let Fenris rips the ******* mages heart out.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ryriena:  But he's a free mage doing what he pleases.  I'm not sure why this is suddenly wrong.  Are you suggesting we restrict his magic use?

 

And you're naming one mage and claiming balance.

 

While a templar rapes someone - and suddenly every templar has a rape squad of their very own.  

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  For what crime?  Slave trading?   C'mon - even you have to know you're stretching your rhetoric beyond credulity here.

 

You know I mean crimes committed by mages with magic.

 

You clearly hate Vivienne for the crime of not agreeing with you.

Actually, I decided against hating her.

 

 

@Ryriena:  But he's a free mage doing what he pleases.  I'm not sure why this is suddenly wrong.  Are you suggesting we restrict his magic use?

 

And you're naming one mage and claiming balance.

 

While a templar rapes someone - and suddenly every templar has a rape squad of their very own.  

As a general rule, I don't talk about those crimes that I don't excuse because everyone winds up killing the ones who perform them anyway, with such luminaries as Tarohne and Hadriana as well.

 

I'm against magic being used for anything that I'd be against mundane measures being used for.

 

As for the templars, that's a gross oversimplification, but I won't go into it right now unless you want me to.

[Ryriena]

Xilazhra I want you too knock it out of the park for me I am not going to bother.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  Go ahead and deny that the Templars are painted as a single entity more often than not - not to mention the Chantry.

[RobRam10]

Vivienne is a traitor! She has fail all of us!

[Beerfish]

Their is not an excuse for everything a mage has done. I don't seem to excuse Danaruis, after all, he is a monster.

Funny thing is Danaruis actually comes from Tevinter and things like slavery are common there.  Ignore the 101 heinous acts of mages in other parts of thedas including the ones by mages where actually good people or just naive and go after Danarius, a guy from a mage run empire in which slavery is accepted.