1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  Go ahead and deny that the Templars are painted as a single entity more often than not - not to mention the Chantry.

Well, they... kinda are, being a single organization with a single chain of command, as opposed to "mages," who simply possess a biological condition. Of course, now we have two different Orders, but the Red Templars are even worse, so I don't think that helps.

 

Rest assured that I'm entirely accommodating to those templars who leave the Order or who would do things like refuse to participate in the Annulment in DA2.

[silentspec111]

Wow all this conversation because of one line uttered by a character we barely know or explored why she thinks that way or if she changes her mind or reinforces her opinion further later.

 

People even going to the extent of hating her or being overtly defensive really??...why not just wait for a few more days, then play the game, then decide on if we hate or love the character....till then simple speculation would do without both the extremes... isnt it??

 

On a side note one small thing i have always fount out about ppl here in BSN is that we even before meeting the said character make up romance plot or even make-up how they are or their characters from little snippets we see then once we interact with them lot of times we find it clashes with our head canon setting us up for wasted Forum-Rage. Dont get me wrong i am guilty of the same crime hence i said we. But these days i keep feeling a little less head canon and more simple speculation can do wonders in keeping expectation in check...

 

Oh n sorry for my english n grammer its not my first language im not that much adept at it... be kind to me on this regard BSN 

[Uccio]

Vivienne should stuff it.

[Ryriena]

Ukki calm the f down dude it's a game. Silentspec, your grammar is better than mine and I am a native speaker.

[sylvanaerie]

I agree, Silentspec, your English is very good and your argument sound.  I wish more people would adopt a 'wait and see' attitude instead of flying off the handle over 15 seconds of dialogue taken out of context.

[Ianamus]

And blacks can't live like whites do, just because their skin-colour is not white?...that's racism and discrimination (yes: mages can be dangerous - I don't deny that, but most of them aren't and don't want to be...putting them all behind bars, just because some are law-breaking killers/criminals is still wrong...it's like locking up all blacks, just because some of them are members in the worst gangs you can dream off...or locking up all Japanese, because some of them are part of the Yakuza or all Italians because some are part of the Mafia, or the Russians (russian Mafia), the Irish because of the Irish-Mob etc. -.- so short-sighted...I am with Aldenon (the character) on this!)

 

Even more so, if you make training (at the very least learning to control ones magic) mandatory (and the Harrowing for someone who wants to be truly free - that's infringing on freedom, too but only for a limited time and that's IMHO acceptable) and keep the templars (and seekers...as the templars internal affairs/spy-division) around to protect mundanes (and creat a secondary order (comprised of mages trained specially to counter other mages - even blood-mages) in order to support them, watch over Harrowings and training (and catching runners...without being allowed to kill them (except for self-defense or the defense of others...no abuse allowed) and establish due-process (laws that govern the circle, with an appeals process for punishments and courts deciding the punishment (courts of peers - an apprentice would be judged by his fellow apprentices, an enchanter by other enchanters and so on)...)

 

greetings LAX

 

You can't compare it to any real-world discrimination because nobody in the real world has genetics that let them shoot fireballs at people. The very definition of discrimination is treating people differently, and mages should be treated differently to other people, because they are all incredibly dangerous. 

 

For me it comes down to cost vs benefit. If having the mages free causes more overall suffering than having them locked away then it is best to keep them shut in their towers where they can't hurt anyone. And considering just one young mage girl can easily kill over seventy people if she is possessed (Merediths sister) I can only see freedom leading to more deaths and lives ruined than there were mages locked away beforehand.

[Ryriena]

So basicly you want too keep everyone locked away because you want to play it safe? Those that give up rights for a little bit of safety deserve neither. Ben Franklin

[PhroXenGold]

So basicly you want too keep everyone locked away because you want to play it safe? Those that give up rights for a little bit of safety deserve neither. Ben Franklin

 

Just because someone in the past said something doesn't mean it's right....

[herkles]

the problem with comparing the mage-templar issue to the real world is that saddly people don't have the ability to shoot lighting from there fingers in the real world. I want to do that, imagine just zapping people with lighting or healing people with magic but we do not have that power. Nor do we have to worry about becoming possessed by demons and turning into abominations in the real world. 

[silentspec111]

I agree, Silentspec, your English is very good and your argument sound.  I wish more people would adopt a 'wait and see' attitude instead of flying off the handle over 15 seconds of dialogue taken out of context.

Hey thanks and exactly "Wait n See"...she could truly be what some people is claiming her to be biased or she could have a just reason for her opinion we dont know we cant know... problem is we all assume ourselves to be David "Loremaster Overlord Supreme" Gaider and decide whatever opinion we came up with in the 15 secs we see her is "CANON"

 

Once again i am not claiming either of the view points are wrong all i am saying is they are not right either until and unless it has been validated with our "Actual In Game" interaction with her. Even then for a RPG  its a iffy topic with varied character interaction even what she says could be interpreted differently by different people. 

 

I still remember people hating/liking Ashley ever after all 3 ME games...people still debate if or if not she truly was racist towards other aliens or not, where here we are judging Viv over 15sec of dialogue. Just seems silly to me thats all 

[Beerfish]

Vivienne should stuff it.

Vivenne when asked how this situation all came to be.  "The Templars have been a power hungry faction for years, ruling with an iron fist and keeping mages under their thumb!'

 

"Vivenne is smart and I like her!"

 

Am I right?

[Beerfish]

So basicly you want too keep everyone locked away because you want to play it safe? Those that give up rights for a little bit of safety deserve neither. Ben Franklin

People keep quoting real life people on topics that are so far removed from any real life situation they make it moot.

 

I actually find some of this argument appalling in that the face less innocents that are killed like the ones by merediths sister and perhaps hundreds in redlcliffe are essentially shoulder shrugged away by pro mage freedom people.  They can relate to the in game restorations because they are shown or the in game things like Karl being tranquilled.  but the hundreds killed by mages who have turned are just....ho hum, they have to pay the price for mage freedom.

 

If you want to look at real world history you will see that more often than not moderates bring about real change where direct confrontation rarely works and often makes things worse.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Just because someone in the past said something doesn't mean it's right....

Notwithstanding that I agree with you, I'll note that I usually agree with Benny on this one. This case, however, seems to be materially different from the others in that mages can become abominations* and that mundanes can't. This really is a serious threat, given that an abomination can pretty much solo Redcliffe (if summons don't disqualify you from being said to solo something.) I'd even argue that this wasn't enough reason to lock them up, except that they don't even need to want to. According to Orsino, a First Enchanter in Kirkwall even got possessed, and forcibly held herself back so that the Templars could kill her to protect others.

 

* Abominations are a very specific class of demoniacs with a very specific kind of added danger to them due to the magic of the host, so please nobody say that rocks can become abominations. Yes, I know what Dragon Age II does early on during Cullen's introductory quest. Dragon Age II is wrong on this detail.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ryrenia:  No, I want my fellow mages and myself regulated because - unlike the poets of mundanes who wax philosophical about the demon inside every man - the one's inside mages have a much higher chance of actually manifesting.

 

That there are Templar abuses does NOT invalidate the need for mages to be trained, monitored and dealt with if they prove to be dabbling in practices that further increase the chance of becoming abominations.

 

Mages are not - "just people born a little different" - they're born different and have a burden to keep vigilant against alien forces that seek to carve them out and use them as skin suits to take over Thedas.  A burden they cannot be trusted to deal with on their own because of the consequences.

 

It cannot be a mages choice whether or not he wants to allow these alien forces power in our world - because that endangers all of Thedas (as I hope people clearly see in DA:I).  

 

There is no question there are abuses that are ignored and must be paid for - there is no question that reforms must be put in place.

 

But for myself - there is no reason to support terrorists and violent revolutionaries.  I oppose the rebellion - and will do so in game unless some seriously compelling arguments come to light.

 

People hurting people isn't enough... unless someone can prove to me that the powerless throughout Thedas don't suffer unreasonably.  

 

For my part in projection:  Being a minority - I find it the height of selfishness to find my personal minority somehow more deserving of understanding.  I put that on to mages, as a mage, and find people like Adrian to think of nobody but herself in the name of mages.  I cannot, will not, associate with people who simply want to use the pain of others to make a new regime wherein they are the power of oppression.

 

===== 

 

As for Benjamin Franklin:  I wonder when the last time he encountered an abomination was... or had to contemplate a manifested metaphysical plane... strange I can't seem to remember.

[SeekerOfLight]

Just going to add my two cents on one point that's been made by Vivienne and on this thread. Which is that by voting to leave Chantry supervision they were behaving naively and selfishly, not considering the consequences their actions would have on the general populace.

 

I agree that the Magi leadership didn't think through all the consequences their actions would bring, chiefly what Lambert would do in response to the vote. But, has anyone considered that their behaviour makes total sense within the context of the circle system. Bearing in mind that the vote was not to start a rebellion, it was to no longer recognise the Chantry's oversight of them.

 

The fact is that the vast majority of CIRCLE mages don't interact with everyday people in Thedas on a regular basis, with good reason of course. But this does bring to mind the old adage, 'Separation breeds contempt'.

 

Normal people, do not make up a sizeable part of any mages everyday life, so how can they expected to have empathy for a group of people, whom they haven't met and in all likelihood wouldn't care much for them if they knew of their 'affliction', and non-magical folk don't understand magic and their fears about it are completely justified.

 

So on the front of it, it makes sense to just to separate everyone from each other. The non-magic folk are safe from mages and mages are safe from non-magic folk.

 

Isn't it possible then, that part of the reason we have this crisis is that the Circle worked too well? Not only separating people physically from each other but emotionally as well.

 

Think about it, the Circles tend to be in isolated areas. i.e. the Gallows, Lake Calenhad, they are also isolated financially as well, as we know that they are run on funds they get by selling enchanted supplies not through funds gained by charity.

 

All of this reinforces a sense of isolation and antipathy for the 'mundanes', by circle mages. Empathy is created by connecting with people, speaking with people learning about their lives, their dreams and their fears. A circle mage may read about the world, but from safety, inside their towers... they aren't part of it.

[Medhia_Nox]

It's actually the opposite:

 

"Familiarity breeds contempt" is the saying.

 

"Absence makes the heart grow fonder" is also another saying.  

 

The reason why people hate mages - is because of what they see magic do.  Like the peasants in the bar in Asunder.  They don't hate mages "just cause" - like everyone claims (certainly some do).

 

The problem with many mages is that they secretly don't want magic... they want to be treated normal and throw fireballs which is completely selfish.  Magic comes with a price that mages want to ignore... they can't - and it bites them in the ass when they become abominations.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It's actually the opposite:

 

"Familiarity breeds contempt" is the saying.

 

"Absence makes the heart grow fonder" is also another saying.  

 

The reason why people hate mages - is because of what they see magic do.  Like the peasants in the bar in Asunder.  They don't hate mages "just cause" - like everyone claims (certainly some do).

Didn't they try to lynch the mages before Adrian attempted to attack them? I'm not sure of Adrian's actions, since if it was actual fire she conjured rather than a magical effect that looked like it she really was being deeply irresponsible, but I've never denied that as far as I know what she did was for legitimate, self-defense related reasons.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Riversdalewhiteflash:  The drunk peasants in the bar are angry seeing mages because of three events that happened to the village regarding magic (not necessarily mages) in the recent past. 

 

The group is just a catalyst for their anger and being abused by magic (again, not mages).  Is it enlightened?  No.  Are people usually rational when it comes to feeling and being drunk?  No.  

 

But all Adrian wants to do is burn them for being upset and drunk.  She's a social incompetent with a flamethrower - she should never be allowed out of the Tower.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

@Riversdalewhiteflash:  The drunk peasants in the bar are angry seeing mages because of three events that happened to the village regarding magic (not necessarily mages) in the recent past. 

 

The group is just a catalyst for their anger and being abused by magic (again, not mages).  Is it enlightened?  No.  Are people usually rational when it comes to feeling and being drunk?  No.  

 

But all Adrian wants to do is burn them for being upset and drunk.  She's a social incompetent with a flamethrower - she should never be allowed out of the Tower.

Could you please tell me exactly what magic they saw? Assume that I haven't read any of the books, and further assume that I don't trust a bunch of drunk and almost certainly uneducated peasants to know the difference between magic and bad luck. Because both of those are true.

[Beerfish]

Just going to add my two cents on one point that's been made by Vivienne and on this thread. Which is that by voting to leave Chantry supervision they were behaving naively and selfishly, not considering the consequences their actions would have on the general populace.

 

I agree that the Magi leadership didn't think through all the consequences their actions would bring, chiefly what Lambert would do in response to the vote. But, has anyone considered that their behaviour makes total sense within the context of the circle system. Bearing in mind that the vote was not to start a rebellion, it was to no longer recognise the Chantry's oversight of them.

 

The fact is that the vast majority of CIRCLE mages don't interact with everyday people in Thedas on a regular basis, with good reason of course. But this does bring to mind the old adage, 'Separation breeds contempt'.

 

Normal people, do not make up a sizeable part of any mages everyday life, so how can they expected to have empathy for a group of people, whom they haven't met and in all likelihood wouldn't care much for them if they knew of their 'affliction', and non-magical folk don't understand magic and their fears about it are completely justified.

 

So on the front of it, it makes sense to just to separate everyone from each other. The non-magic folk are safe from mages and mages are safe from non-magic folk.

 

Isn't it possible then, that part of the reason we have this crisis is that the Circle worked too well? Not only separating people physically from each other but emotionally as well.

 

Think about it, the Circles tend to be in isolated areas. i.e. the Gallows, Lake Calenhad, they are also isolated financially as well, as we know that they are run on funds they get by selling enchanted supplies not through funds gained by charity.

 

All of this reinforces a sense of isolation and antipathy for the 'mundanes', by circle mages. Empathy is created by connecting with people, speaking with people learning about their lives, their dreams and their fears. A circle mage may read about the world, but from safety, inside their towers... they aren't part of it.

Most of what you say makes sense.  I do take issue with this quote "Bearing in mind that the vote was not to start a rebellion, it was to no longer recognise the Chantry's oversight of them."  The law is based on what would a rational normal person do or believe.  Any rational normal person would realize that once you are not going to recognize the oversight that you were indeed going to cause a push back and thus rebellion.

 

As for the rest of your post, I agree you are correct except that it doesn't really provide any possible solution to the ongoing problem.

[The Baconer]

Could you please tell me exactly what magic they saw? Assume that I haven't read any of the books, and further assume that I don't trust a bunch of drunk and almost certainly uneducated peasants to know the difference between magic and bad luck. Because both of those are true.

 

They were angry for the attempted assassination of the Divine, and because a mage burned down a farmhouse (with people inside) when her powers manifested.

 

Spoiler

Cole actually encounters that same mage at a point in the book.

 

Oooh, and some more: "Last year there was the man in Val Bresins who turned into a demon in the middle of the marketplace! The hedge witch who blighted the Arlans crop! The Wickens boy who talked to ghosts - you know it was him that was killing our poor dogs!"

[Medhia_Nox]

@Riversdalewhiteflash:  Why such contempt for them?  In fact, this inherent contempt is exactly why I won't side with a group of violent revolutionaries.  They are not, at all, operating from a place of justice - but from righteous indignation.  Peasants = ignorant.  Mages = educated and superior.  Mages can thank the Chantry for the opportunity to sit around and read. 

 

And the mages in Thedas haven't shown to me any form of superior intelligence... magic isn't book learned.

 

I'll post what they saw when I get home (should be about 1/2 hr).  

 

EDIT:  Thanks for the assist Beerfish.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

*snip* "The hedge witch who blighted the Arlans crop! The Wickens boy who talked to ghosts - you know it was him that was killing our poor dogs!"

While I agree they were probably right about the rest of it, these two I'm not sure about. There's entirely mundane reasons why these could happen. Which was my point: being brought into contact with such mages as are relatively safe, being given cause to like and trust those mages, and having those mages judge what misfortunes could've been, couldn't have been, and flatly were caused by magic... might be a good thing.

 

@ Medhia  Don't confuse any of that with me not liking the Circle system: I do, at least in theory. I think it's necessary, if due for an overhaul. But even the old Circle system allowed such mages as had proven to be relatively safe gambles to go out among the general populace to help the Circle, the Chantry, the Wardens, and the aristocracy. Maybe they should also have been allowed to do so to help the general populace.

 

Edit: Also @ Medhia: I have some degree of contempt for a lot of people.

[wcholcombe]

And it's extremely rare and only seems to happen in special circumstances, namely a damaged Veil or a demonic cascade.

 

There have not, I've noticed, been any mentions of abominations in Redcliffe.

Abominations we know of--

In Asunder the elf who undid his own tranquility--Weak Veil at Adamant

In DAO; Circle Tower by Uldred and company. Not aware of the Veil being weakened there, though I guess it is possible; Amalia--possessed by a demon that Wilhelm had summoned to study; Connor through reading forbidden blood magic texts I believe..no weakened veil; Baroness who as I understand it became possessed while in the fade after sending all the residents of black marsh to the fade; Various random enemy encounters we know nothing about.

In DA2; Meredith's Sister who we have no knowledge of how she became possessed. Anders who we have no clue how he became possessed. Grace, Evelina, Feynrieal, Olivia-Kirkwall definitely has Veil issues. Wilmond- turned by a bloodmage. Marathari-possessed by an imprisoned demon she released.

Masked Empire- Mihris is possessed by Ishmael a summoned demon.

Last flight- Abomination shop keeper we don't know how she became an abomination.  Several mages and wardens are referred to as willfully becoming abominations in order to kill as many darkspawn as they can before being overrun.--Veil thinness is possible but not definite. 

The Calling- The dead dwarf lord/king in the deep roads, though this may just be demon possession and not actually abomination due to the dwarf having no magic.

[Jester]

Anders who we have no clue how he became possessed.

Sorry, what? 

Anders is possessed by benevolent spirit, not demon. And we know exactly how he got possessed, he voluntered to become a host for Justice. 

 

The Calling- The dead dwarf lord/king in the deep roads, though this may just be demon possession and not actually abomination due to the dwarf having no magic.

 

This is just demon possessing a dead body. Extremely common throughout the series. This was just more powerful (desire?), than your regular rage/hunger.