1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

Just because someone in the past said something doesn't mean it's right....

You do realize that he was basicly saying those, whom bow down to oppression and let it run their lives for temporary safety do not have the right too call themselves citzens. Do not have the rights too take away others people rights for that will leave that temporary safety meaningless.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You do realize that he was basicly saying those, whom bow down to oppression and let it run their lives for temporary safety do not have the right too call themselves citzens. Do not have the rights too take away others people rights for that will leave that temporary safety is meaningless.

I don't see how that answers his objection.

[wcholcombe]

Sorry, what? 

Anders is possessed by benevolent spirit, not demon. And we know exactly how he got possessed, he voluntered to become a host for Justice. 

 

This is just demon possessing a dead body. Extremely common throughout the series. This was just more powerful (desire?), than your regular rage/hunger. 

Most people consider a possession that changes the behavior of the possessed as being an abomination.  I don't consider Wynne and abomination, but it is hard not to consider Anders one.

 

I believe the dwarf was a Sloth demon considering he put them all to sleep in the fade.

[Ryriena]

I don't see how that answers his objection.

He didn't even give a objection and only gave a sentence that says somthing I already know.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He didn't even give a objection and only gave a sentence that says somthing I already know.

You are aware that this sentence that tells you something you already know was in context almost certainly meant to point out a weakness in your use of Benjamin Franklin's maxim?

[Ryriena]

No it doesn't because of the fact they're for taken people rights away for that temporary safety feeling, which I am against. It does not leave my arrgument in weeken state, just because of the fact you think it does.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No it doesn't because of the fact they're for taken people rights away for that temporary safety feeling, which I am against. It does not leave my arrgument in weeken state, just because of the fact you think it does.

Constantly restating your argument whenever anyone objects to it isn't the same as refuting their objections. Edit: Unless this was meant to point out that you believe this point still stands in spite of Ben Franklin saying it doesn't make it right, in which case I'll point out that you're correct as far as this argument goes but refer you back to my refutation of it on the last page.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Riversdalewhiteflash:  There's a LOT wrong with the current system. 

 

My main argument now is that nothing is going to get better for anyone after what the Templars and Mages have just done... I don't often add the "Templars" because I feel it's obvious they've gone off the rails... and because I feel that the mages in game (and many of the Pro-Mages on these boards) don't feel any level of responsibility for the **** storm they're making.

 

Things are going to get a lot worse for mages in Thedas now that Anders blew up a Chantry, the same type of explosion just probably killed the Divine, and then demons fell from the sky at the same time the mages broke free.

 

And people think nobody is going to say:  "These things are related!  Let's overreact and hate mages!" 

 

And I totally respect your disdain for people - shows character in my opinion.

[wcholcombe]

I fully expect there to be fractured groups among both the templars and the mages. We know there are the Red Templars (which I presume will be the more hard line element) and the non red templars as well as those who stayed loyal to the divine/chantry and those who fled the order.  Mages will have some who remained in the circles I imagine, some who look to compromise, some who don't, and the ones like the templars who have sought to just flee the conflict.

 

Also, when you consider the leadership of both the mages and the templars was decimated at the beginning of the game, fracturing of the groups is sure to occur.

[Xilizhra]

Abominations we know of--

In Asunder the elf who undid his own tranquility--Weak Veil at Adamant

In DAO; Circle Tower by Uldred and company. Not aware of the Veil being weakened there, though I guess it is possible; Amalia--possessed by a demon that Wilhelm had summoned to study; Connor through reading forbidden blood magic texts I believe..no weakened veil; Baroness who as I understand it became possessed while in the fade after sending all the residents of black marsh to the fade; Various random enemy encounters we know nothing about.

In DA2; Meredith's Sister who we have no knowledge of how she became possessed. Anders who we have no clue how he became possessed. Grace, Evelina, Feynrieal, Olivia-Kirkwall definitely has Veil issues. Wilmond- turned by a bloodmage. Marathari-possessed by an imprisoned demon she released.

Masked Empire- Mihris is possessed by Ishmael a summoned demon.

Last flight- Abomination shop keeper we don't know how she became an abomination.  Several mages and wardens are referred to as willfully becoming abominations in order to kill as many darkspawn as they can before being overrun.--Veil thinness is possible but not definite. 

The Calling- The dead dwarf lord/king in the deep roads, though this may just be demon possession and not actually abomination due to the dwarf having no magic.

Uldred: demonic cascade. Connor: deliberately summoned a demon.

Everyone in DA2 was living in Kirkwall, which has a weakened Veil. One of the causes of this is Corypheus' prison in the Vimmark Mountains, so I'm reasonably sure the effect spreads a ways beyond the city walls.

And it's easy to bypass the Veil thinness if you deliberately summon a demon into you, but those aren't involuntary abominations and as such aren't natural disasters, protection from which would be the only just reason to imprison mages who haven't done anything wrong.

[PhroXenGold]

You do realize that he was basicly saying those, whom bow down to oppression and let it run their lives for temporary safety do not have the right too call themselves citzens. Do not have the rights too take away others people rights for that will leave that temporary safety meaningless.

 

My criticism was less about the words used - although I don't completely agree with them - and more about you just throwing out a quote from some dead guy instead of making an actual argument of your own.

[Vandicus]

No it doesn't because of the fact they're for taken people rights away for that temporary safety feeling, which I am against. It does not leave my arrgument in weeken state, just because of the fact you think it does.

Citing someone's opinion(what you did) doesn't constitute an argument.
 

Besides the context of Franklin's statement is not the context used here, or a modern world context.

 

Do you seriously believe it should be legal for private citizens to own nuclear weapons? If you don't, then clearly you believe there are situations where freedoms must be given up for security.

[wcholcombe]

Uldred: demonic cascade. Connor: deliberately summoned a demon.

Everyone in DA2 was living in Kirkwall, which has a weakened Veil. One of the causes of this is Corypheus' prison in the Vimmark Mountains, so I'm reasonably sure the effect spreads a ways beyond the city walls.

And it's easy to bypass the Veil thinness if you deliberately summon a demon into you, but those aren't involuntary abominations and as such aren't natural disasters, protection from which would be the only just reason to imprison mages who haven't done anything wrong.

ACtually Connor didn't deliberately summon a demon. It was an accident. Which is the threat. I agree on the DA2s, and Kirkwall as I said, but it wasn't because of Cory, it was because of all the stuff that Tevinter did and the blood magic practiced at Kirkwall had weakened the veil.

 

Also, Merediths sister was an accident. Pllus, mages deliberately summoning demons and then losing control of them, or deliberately summoning demons period is a danger.  The whole point of seperating them from their family is that strong emotions cause difficulty in controlling power when you are untrained, family tends to cause strong and often negative emotions.

[Shahadem]

Abominations we know of--

In Asunder the elf who undid his own tranquility--Weak Veil at Adamant

In DAO; Circle Tower by Uldred and company. Not aware of the Veil being weakened there, though I guess it is possible; Amalia--possessed by a demon that Wilhelm had summoned to study; Connor through reading forbidden blood magic texts I believe..no weakened veil; Baroness who as I understand it became possessed while in the fade after sending all the residents of black marsh to the fade; Various random enemy encounters we know nothing about.

In DA2; Meredith's Sister who we have no knowledge of how she became possessed. Anders who we have no clue how he became possessed. Grace, Evelina, Feynrieal, Olivia-Kirkwall definitely has Veil issues. Wilmond- turned by a bloodmage. Marathari-possessed by an imprisoned demon she released.

Masked Empire- Mihris is possessed by Ishmael a summoned demon.

Last flight- Abomination shop keeper we don't know how she became an abomination.  Several mages and wardens are referred to as willfully becoming abominations in order to kill as many darkspawn as they can before being overrun.--Veil thinness is possible but not definite. 

The Calling- The dead dwarf lord/king in the deep roads, though this may just be demon possession and not actually abomination due to the dwarf having no magic.

 

UH, did you play the DA games?

 

Connor: He was taught by the completely failure known as Jawen. It isn't suprising that he became possessed because Jawen is an idiot who doesn't know anything about being a mage. Remember that Jawen had yet been allowed to take the Harrowing because the Circle believed he wasn't ready and probably never would be. In fact I think he was slated for being Tranquilized. So he really was the bottom of the barrel. Had a better mage taught Connor, Connor wouldn't have been possessed by a demon. Connor became possessed became a demon promised him that if he accepted demonic possession then his father would be saved. Being a child, this was an offer he couldn't refuse. An adult would have had a much easier time turning this deal down.

 

Anders: Anders volunteered to be the new home for Justice, a spirit, because Justice's former home was destroyed.

 

Uldred et al: These were people who either voluntarily chose to become abominations or were turned into abominations by Uldred. Being near a weak veil has nothing to do with being possessed by a demon.  

 

Marethari: She chose to take the demon into her own body.

 

Baroness: She chose to become possessed by a Pride demon in order to boost her own power. She was also very evil.

 

Being near a demon or areas where the Fade is weak does not by itself lead to demonic possession. The only thing that makes one become an abomination is being weak willed or naive. That's why the Circle Harrows mages, to find the mages with weak wills or innate naivety or mental infirmity.

[Xilizhra]

ACtually Connor didn't deliberately summon a demon. It was an accident. Which is the threat. I agree on the DA2s, and Kirkwall as I said, but it wasn't because of Cory, it was because of all the stuff that Tevinter did and the blood magic practiced at Kirkwall had weakened the veil.

I don't think accidents like that will ever happen with mages who are actually trained, or at least we've never heard of any; either way, the demon was summoned and possessed Connor afterward. As for Kirkwall, there were multiple causes.

 

 

Also, Merediths sister was an accident. Pllus, mages deliberately summoning demons and then losing control of them, or deliberately summoning demons period is a danger.  The whole point of seperating them from their family is that strong emotions cause difficulty in controlling power when you are untrained, family tends to cause strong and often negative emotions.

Meredith's sister was in the vicinity of Kirkwall, hence the problem.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think accidents like that will ever happen with mages who are actually trained, or at least we've never heard of any; either way, the demon was summoned and possessed Connor afterward. As for Kirkwall, there were multiple causes.

Orsino notes that one of the previous FEs in Kirkwall became possessed, and actually held back the demon so that the Templars could put her down in order to protect others from her. Assuming this is true, and not Orsino deliberately obscuring the facts to make her look better than she was, I think it's probably an accidental possession.

 

Meredith's sister was in the vicinity of Kirkwall, hence the problem.

I don't think anything that's happening in Kirkwall actually changes the rules, though. I've seen no evidence that the place's status as a Hellmouth does anything except cause problems that can and do happen to happen more often.

[wcholcombe]

UH, did you play the DA games?

 

Connor: He was taught by the completely failure known as Jawen. It isn't suprising that he became possessed because Jawen is an idiot who doesn't know anything about being a mage. Remember that Jawen had yet been allowed to take the Harrowing because the Circle believed he wasn't ready and probably never would be. In fact I think he was slated for being Tranquilized. So he really was the bottom of the barrel. Had a better mage taught Connor, Connor wouldn't have been possessed by a demon. Connor became possessed became a demon promised him that if he accepted demonic possession then his father would be saved. Being a child, this was an offer he couldn't refuse. An adult would have had a much easier time turning this deal down.

 

Anders: Anders volunteered to be the new home for Justice, a spirit, because Justice's former home was destroyed.

 

Uldred et al: These were people who either voluntarily chose to become abominations or were turned into abominations by Uldred. Being near a weak veil has nothing to do with being possessed by a demon.  

 

Marethari: She chose to take the demon into her own body.

 

Baroness: She chose to become possessed by a Pride demon in order to boost her own power. She was also very evil.

 

Being near a demon or areas where the Fade is weak does not by itself lead to demonic possession. The only thing that makes one become an abomination is being weak willed or naive. That's why the Circle Harrows mages, to find the mages with weak wills or innate naivety or mental infirmity.

Yes I did, and I was stating plainly what happened without opinion.

The fact remains, Connor was possessed. He was vulnerable to possession because he wanted to save his father.

Uldred didn't become an abomination by choice, he summoned a pride demon and couldn't control it. all the other mages were changed by force.

The Baroness didn't become an abomination until she and all the people of black marsh went into the veil.

 

It has nothing to do with being weak willed, if it did then the harrowing would be full proof. It isn't.  Powerful demons are more then capable of taking over a trained strong willed mage.  Someone who is harrowed is much less likely to be possessed, but it isn't guaranteed. Uldred would be a principle example of this.

[Beerfish]

You do realize that he was basicly saying those, whom bow down to oppression and let it run their lives for temporary safety do not have the right too call themselves citzens. Do not have the rights too take away others people rights for that will leave that temporary safety meaningless.

The rights of the majority of the population is not being trampled, only the mages.  It's fairly singular to hear pro mage force constantly talk about oppression and rights and yet the biggest violator in that regard in thedas appears to be the society run by mages.  Upset you get 3 good meals a day plus time to study and have to put up with some bullying by Templars?  Go to Tevinter and be a slave.

[Beerfish]

UH, did you play the DA games?

 

Connor: He was taught by the completely failure known as Jawen. It isn't suprising that he became possessed because Jawen is an idiot who doesn't know anything about being a mage. Remember that Jawen had yet been allowed to take the Harrowing because the Circle believed he wasn't ready and probably never would be. In fact I think he was slated for being Tranquilized. So he really was the bottom of the barrel. Had a better mage taught Connor, Connor wouldn't have been possessed by a demon. Connor became possessed became a demon promised him that if he accepted demonic possession then his father would be saved. Being a child, this was an offer he couldn't refuse. An adult would have had a much easier time turning this deal down.

 

Anders: Anders volunteered to be the new home for Justice, a spirit, because Justice's former home was destroyed.

 

Uldred et al: These were people who either voluntarily chose to become abominations or were turned into abominations by Uldred. Being near a weak veil has nothing to do with being possessed by a demon.  

 

Marethari: She chose to take the demon into her own body.

 

Baroness: She chose to become possessed by a Pride demon in order to boost her own power. She was also very evil.

 

Being near a demon or areas where the Fade is weak does not by itself lead to demonic possession. The only thing that makes one become an abomination is being weak willed or naive. That's why the Circle Harrows mages, to find the mages with weak wills or innate naivety or mental infirmity.

Most of these are good arguments for having a strong circle.  Especially the jowan bit in the 1st paragraph.  It kind of jolts the old idea that 'We mages can look after ourselves and don't need no stinking templars to watch over us!  We can teach ourselves how to control things!"

[wcholcombe]

I don't think accidents like that will ever happen with mages who are actually trained, or at least we've never heard of any; either way, the demon was summoned and possessed Connor afterward. As for Kirkwall, there were multiple causes.

 

 

Meredith's sister was in the vicinity of Kirkwall, hence the problem.

I agree that Kirkwall definitely makes possession easier, had forgotten Meredith grew up there. 

 

As for accidental possession- Uldred was an accident. Granted he summoned the pride demon that possessed him, but he didn't summon it to become an abomination.

 

Now I agree proper training is the best prevention against possession, but until someone is properly trained, they need to be in a controlled supervised environment.  If removing them from family is the best practice for preventing possession then by all means do so.  I would assume, note assume I do not state this as fact, that sense the circle system is based on the one that originated in Tevinter, it wouldn't surprise me if magical children aren't isolated in some manner from their familiies until they learn to control their magic.  Again, that is just an assumption, but I doubt the chantry just decided to do that for the fun of it, in every other way we know of the circles in Tevinter operate the same way, even having ROAs, but it takes more to innact one.

[Xilizhra]

I agree that Kirkwall definitely makes possession easier, had forgotten Meredith grew up there. 

 

As for accidental possession- Uldred was an accident. Granted he summoned the pride demon that possessed him, but he didn't summon it to become an abomination.

 

Now I agree proper training is the best prevention against possession, but until someone is properly trained, they need to be in a controlled supervised environment.  If removing them from family is the best practice for preventing possession then by all means do so.  I would assume, note assume I do not state this as fact, that sense the circle system is based on the one that originated in Tevinter, it wouldn't surprise me if magical children aren't isolated in some manner from their familiies until they learn to control their magic.  Again, that is just an assumption, but I doubt the chantry just decided to do that for the fun of it, in every other way we know of the circles in Tevinter operate the same way, even having ROAs, but it takes more to innact one.

Well, once a demon is already there in your face, of course they can attempt possession. But that doesn't happen often.

 

I can understand removing mage children for practical reasons, but I do believe there are more ways to alleviate the impact than are currently being practiced.

[wcholcombe]

Well, once a demon is already there in your face, of course they can attempt possession. But that doesn't happen often.

 

I can understand removing mage children for practical reasons, but I do believe there are more ways to alleviate the impact than are currently being practiced.

But going off of gameplay, and I will give you this is a slippery slope, demon summoning isn't that rare. Leaving DA2 and the insanity of kirkwall out of it, just looking at the books and DAO and DAA, for good or for ill mages seem to have a tendency to summon demons way more then would be limited to just crazy or evil mages.

 

Now, there are some who argue that the current/previous circle system was perfect and the Templars were doing a perfect job, heck one or two would argue they were too lenient(one is just roundly considered out of his gord, and the other I think just likes to argue and be contakerous), but the vast majority of circle supporters will readily admit things need to be changed from how they stood at the end of DA2/Asunder, the degree of change and reform necessary is the true argument.

 

Example: Xil I believe from our previous discussions you want full circle independence and the abolition of the Templar order and ending tranquility and harrowing correct?

 

Me I think the Chantry does a good job of administering the circle system, I think the templar order needs a giant enema to remove the hardliner mage haters and come back to the original mission of both watching and protecting the mages, and the circle administration needs some 3rd party to police it. A triumvirate of a Knight Commander, 1st Enchanter, and Grey Warden Commander or some other person to police and administer both the mages and templars would probably go a long way to fixing the majority of issues in the circles in my opinion.

[Xilizhra]

But going off of gameplay, and I will give you this is a slippery slope, demon summoning isn't that rare. Leaving DA2 and the insanity of kirkwall out of it, just looking at the books and DAO and DAA, for good or for ill mages seem to have a tendency to summon demons way more then would be limited to just crazy or evil mages.

 

Now, there are some who argue that the current/previous circle system was perfect and the Templars were doing a perfect job, heck one or two would argue they were too lenient(one is just roundly considered out of his gord, and the other I think just likes to argue and be contakerous), but the vast majority of circle supporters will readily admit things need to be changed from how they stood at the end of DA2/Asunder, the degree of change and reform necessary is the true argument.

There's a natural bias toward encountering crazy demon-summoning mages for the same reason we meet more bandits than merchants, despite that ratio not being realistic either: conflict.

 

 

Example: Xil I believe from our previous discussions you want full circle independence and the abolition of the Templar order and ending tranquility and harrowing correct?

 

Me I think the Chantry does a good job of administering the circle system, I think the templar order needs a giant enema to remove the hardliner mage haters and come back to the original mission of both watching and protecting the mages, and the circle administration needs some 3rd party to police it. A triumvirate of a Knight Commander, 1st Enchanter, and Grey Warden Commander or some other person to police and administer both the mages and templars would probably go a long way to fixing the majority of issues in the circles in my opinion.

I'm willing to accept the Chantry's role if the Chantry accedes to my reforms: among them, allowing mages to enter the Chantry's government, so that we can have fair representation. Templars should be answerable to the Circles, not the Chantry; the Chantry's watchers can be Seekers if need be. As for the other two things you mentioned, it's involuntary Tranquility and unsupported lethal Harrowings that I want to abolish.

 

Under no circumstances should templars have any part in governance or negotiations. They're police, not politicians.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  I believe the problem comes in where you actually believe the problems presented in the fictional world don't exist for the majority of mages when we're told flat out otherwise.

 

- Demons are drawn to mages. 
- The vast majority of possessions are mages

- Demons don't have to have permission.  They can either 1) Trick you. Or 2) Force their way in.

- Emotion is the driving factor of possession. (THIS is what makes every mage dangerous.)

- There is no protection against demonic possession that "training" can provide.  Because by training, you seem to mean "Oh, I got "Resist Demon" talent and am now impervious.  Not even the Grand Enchanter is impervious to possession.  The Tevinter Magisters are not impervious to possession and they have the greatest mages on Thedas.

- A mage throwing fire with his mind... is not the same as a crazed peasant with a torch. 

- Using any magic weakens the Veil (other things do too to be certain - but every spell weakens the Veil)  For myself - this is tantamount to pollution - and I wouldn't want my town polluted by a weakened Veil and that is as a mage.  Even if I were living in New Lothering... I'd apply for huge restrictions on magic within town limits (my own included).

 

I'm not sure what you believe about blood magic.

 

As for Harrowings - if the Tevinter do them (and I "think" they do - but I'm not sure) then there's very likely a good reason Harrowings happen.  I personally believe they're essential - but I'm open to being proven wrong on this (and I don't believe any evidence at all has been provided so far - Hawke's children are special snowflakes)

[herkles]

@Xilizhra:  I believe the problem comes in where you actually believe the problems presented in the fictional world don't exist for the majority of mages when we're told flat out otherwise.

 

- Demons are drawn to mages. 
- The vast majority of possessions are mages

- Demons don't have to have permission.  They can either 1) Trick you. Or 2) Force their way in.

- Emotion is the driving factor of possession. (THIS is what makes every mage dangerous.)

- There is no protection against demonic possession that "training" can provide.  Because by training, you seem to mean "Oh, I got "Resist Demon" talent and am now impervious.  Not even the Grand Enchanter is impervious to possession.  The Tevinter Magisters are not impervious to possession and they have the greatest mages on Thedas.

- A mage throwing fire with his mind... is not the same as a crazed peasant with a torch. 

- Using any magic weakens the Veil (other things do too to be certain - but every spell weakens the Veil)

 

I wonder, if they actually made mages have to deal with all the baggage that mages, as you just laid out above,  deal with in the lore for the players, how do you think people might be react in this case.