1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Adanu]

Show me where I have been disrespectful and I might consider continuing this conversation, otherwise good day.

That was directed at Ashes, not you, as an example.

[AshesEleven]

Apology accepted.

 

We probably have different defiinitions of words here. You say responsibility when I think owning your actions. People are 'responsibile for their actions' in the context that their actions affect others. If mages no longer care if they affect you, they no longer see themselves as having a responsibility to you.

 

Right but mages don't suddenly lose the responsibility for their actions just because they don't care.  

 

I still think I'm not fully getting you  

[herkles]

adanu, so quentin, uldred, danarius and other magisters are not responsible for what they commit? 

[efd731]

Apparently i just got nodded from my own thread...okay then :|

Anyhow, i wasn't calling you crazy adanu i was referring to the poster comparing mage segregation to American style racism against blacks. Because obviously a minor cosmetic difference is similar grounds for disrcimination as the ability to launch mind nukes and lose control ofyour body to the powers of evil and unleash unimaginable destruction on the world at large

[Ianamus]

So basicly you want too keep everyone locked away because you want to play it safe? Those that give up rights for a little bit of safety deserve neither. Ben Franklin

 

Quoting the words of an American president isn't going to convince me of anything because It's that American mentality with regards to gun control (which has many similarities with the mage/templar conflict) that I absolutely despise. 

 

Here in the UK (and much of Europe) it is illegal to own guns for "protection" or similar reasons. And no matter some would argue it is "denying rights" amazingly we can go to school without having to fear the possibility of a shooting, and that, in my opinion, is far more important. 

[wcholcombe]

Well Ben Franklin wasn't an american president and I don't think many people go to school fearing they will get shot.

[Adanu]

adanu, so quentin, uldred, danarius and other magisters are not responsible for what they commit? 

Responsibility towards others is not the same as responsibility towards ones self. Selfishness versus selflessness.

 

The main reason people feel responsibility towards others is the social and legal contract nations impose upon their citizens, and are generally indoctrinated to that end.

 

Responsibility towards ones self (a personal code of conduct, if you will) has no relevance towards others if the person is not adhering to the contract. Generally, this is when national police will come and impose it.

 

The Mage-Templar war started because mages were tired of being called to adhere towards responsibility towards the whole world based on the actions of some random strangers in history. Therefore they stopped caring about it.

[efd731]

Responsibility towards others is not the same as responsibility towards ones self. Selfishness versus selflessness.

The main reason people feel responsibility towards others is the social and legal contract nations impose upon their citizens, and are generally indoctrinated to that end.

Responsibility towards ones self (a personal code of conduct, if you will) has no relevance towards others if the person is not adhering to the contract. Generally, this is when national police will come and impose it.

The Mage-Templar war started because mages were tired of being called to adhere towards responsibility towards the whole world based on the actions of some random strangers in history. Therefore they stopped caring about it.

while there's nothing wrong with large scale philosophical debate, the perspective you are arguing from is a head-canon one.

[Adanu]

while there's nothing wrong with large scale philosophical debate, the perspective you are arguing from is a head-canon one.

It's argued as an interpretation of what I've witnessed in the games and books. There is no head canon here.

[Mornmagor]

Of course they have a responsibilty to control their potentially destructive power, but i imagine Adanu is arguing that, if you oppress people too much, they will eventually snap, and because of strong emotions, they will be unable to even conceive such a responsibility, since they won't care for it.

 

At least that's what i understood.

 

You can argue that having 3 "free" meals per day, education and control of magic is a priviledge, but it comes with a price. No marriage, children or family, separation from your own family, no titles, loss of nobility, unable to leave the Circle, policed, living with the fear you might become tranquil or abused or becoming an abomimation because you were not up to snuff.

 

Some people, just wanna be left alone, you know, live a normal life. And with the current Circle system they can't. Those are potential candidates to start a rebellion at some point.

 

There are 2 villains here, not one, but arguably, now it's too late. The harm is done.

 

It was the responsibility of the people in charge of Circles, the Templars, the Chantry, the Divine and whoever else, to change this system before it led to this, and either try something new, or mimic other nations that deal with these problems without Chantry Circles(sort-of, for Tevinter), like Tevinter, the Dalish, maybe even Nevarra. But they didn't. And they wouldn't. We needed 1000 years and a rebellion for them to arrange negotiations.

 

You can even argue that they would not want things to change. But they could change the system slowly, and allow people more freedoms in it.

 

Security is important, but if you need to establish security by restricting a certain group of people so much, you have yourself a future liability. And voila. This is what happens.

 

People can call Mages selfish all they want. Human nature is selfish. People that want Mages restricted in Circles because "they might turn us into frogs" are selfish as well. People that were too "busy" to change the system slowly, gradually, to avoid this, were selfish as well.

 

Calling someone selfish is not an argument. It's a fact. People are selfish. All of them.

 

In the end, if among people, we have evolved people, that can use magic, and we restrict, and police, and oppress, them because we fear them, you know what will happen in the end? It will lead to an all out war between the two.

 

You have a tough situation anyway, since Mages have some liabilities. But what do you do about it?

[Ryriena]

I am still a little confused at your idea of responabilty Andue, since those that have free will too decide things for themselves will be able too take responabilty for themselves. Since they are mostly deemed mentaily unfit too take responabilty, like the Mentaily ill or a child because they arent able to understand the gravity of the term in question.


Iansum, he is not a AMERICAN president, he is an inventor and founder of the American Revolution. What did they teach you in school, since that is history 101? We're allowed guns in America, so I am not sure, why you picked this as your argument. I don't fear that I am going to be shot everytime I walk out of my home. I also don't fear things I dont understand either as this is not about the second admendment this will not be a long argument.

However, you also live in a place that has a Pariliment type system like the Darwven race at least before I put Bhlen on the throne, IF I am not mistaken correct? And I also beleive the argument was not stated in your own goverments constitution, which in ours it is in fact stated as the second admendment. So some rights can be denyed by the governments of respective citizens , however the basic rights held by International Laws also state that what the circle system is doing to the mages is wrong.

As according too the Universal Declaration of Human Rights created by the UN, which under article 3, 4, 5 of the declaration clasfiy as the ones you should be looking at, since those three are the ones that have been broken by the circle system.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

http://www.un-documents.net/a3r217.htm

Also, I would like every to read article nine of the universal declarations of human rights.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Adanu:  Then those who stopped caring should, and will, be called to task for their actions. 

 

@Mornmagor:  You're forgetting one factor.  The burden mages bare - is not the Templars or mundane ignorance.  It is an alien power constantly seeking to take over their bodies. 

 

It would be as if we were to simply begin placing lunatics in homes in peaceful neighborhoods and hope for the best.  Yes, for years many of these maligned individuals would hear voices and resist urges and maintain their failing sanity - but at some point - they would snap, and then they would kill a dozen people.

 

This goes beyond: "They will turn us into frogs."

This is about an alien power (Spirits) from another dimension (The Fade) invading Thedas through mages.  It is not theoretical - it happened a ton in the first two games and I suspect it's only going to get worse in this one as the invasion begins.

 

The only power a mage truly has to combat spirits - is constant vigilance... any mage who does not take on that responsibility IS selfish and is endangering everyone around him.  There is no real world comparison - except perhaps lunatics who hear voices and suffer the possibility of having their minds usurped by what we call madness.  And those poor people can't choose to "be vigilant" and fight their madness... mages can.

[Vandicus]

I am still a little confused at your idea of responabilty Andue, since those that have free will too decide things for themselves will be able too take responabilty for themselves. Since they are mostly deemed mentaily unfit too take responabilty, like the Mentaily ill or a child because they arent able to understand the gravity of the term in question.


Iansum, he is not a AMERICAN president, he is an inventor and founder of the American Revolution. What did they teach you in school, since that is history 101? We're allowed guns in America, so I am not sure, why you picked this as your argument. I don't fear that I am going to be shot everytime I walk out of my home. I also don't fear things I dont understand either as this is not about the second admendment this will not be a long argument.

However, you also live in a place that has a Pariliment type system like the Darwven race at least before I put Bhlen on the throne, IF I am not mistaken correct? And I also beleive the argument was not stated in your own goverments constitution, which in ours it is in fact stated as the second admendment. So some rights can be denyed by the governments of respective citizens , however the basic rights held by International Laws also state that what the circle system is doing to the mages is wrong.

As according too the Universal Declaration of Human Rights created by the UN, which under article 3, 4, 5 of the declaration clasfiy as the ones you should be looking at, since those three are the ones that have been broken by the circle system.



http://www.un-documents.net/a3r217.htm

Also, I would like every to read article nine of the universal declarations of human rights.

 

 

We're nearly a millenia of ethics prior to that in Thedas. Much of society lives as serfs and subject to the whims of nobles. The desire to apply modern standards seemingly solely to mages, who need to live a subsidized lifestyle thanks to the costs associated with educating and training them(to subject them to the poverty that your average Thedosian might endure after a poor harvest is practically inviting abominations in), is impractical.

 

 

All that aside, proposing gun control of the sort used in the UK would be effective in the U.S. is more than a little naive, the country has a thriving illegal arms trade at the southern border, it doesn't have anywhere near the level of ability to monitor citizen and noncitizen activity when it comes to the matter. 

[Mornmagor]

And when did i say that Mages shouldn't be vigilant?

 

They need training in order to achieve it.

 

Making them imprisoned for life with the other restrictions however, is not the sole way of doing it.

 

You can't have everything on the side of Templars argument-wise.

 

It's not the training that is the problem, it's the police by the Templars and the Chantry.

 

They chose a way that will 100% lead to an all out war. And it happened.

 

It's not that hard to imagine yourself in that position. You are raised to believe you are nothing, a liability to the world. You are despised by everyone because you wield magic. You are secluded, and in fear.

 

They tell you to be Vigilant. You need to understand this good, not have people brainwash you into doing it. Not being secluded from the world and always pressured, living like an object or weapon, and not a human. This is recipe for disaster.

 

You can't expect a society to prosper based on "security", that is based on people being treated as potential weapons and liabilities, stripping them of their freedom because of that.

 

And no, you can't have all the cake and eat it too. There is no such thing as "Mages being in constant danger of becoming abominations". Even before the Circle system, and where the Circles do not exist as they are in Andrastian states, are people plagued by abominations killing hundreds every day?

 

P.S. If Mages were becoming abominations so often, the world would be dead long before the first Templar appeared.

 

What they are doing, is imprisoning and controlling them, before they "might" become a liability.

 

This system needed to change, there is no arguing about that. They should have changed it before it led to this.

 

They didn't. Now they pay the price, or rather, the world pays the price. They were the authority, not the Mages.

[Vandicus]

And when did i say that Mages shouldn't be vigilant?

 

They need training in order to achieve it.

 

Making them imprisoned for life with the other restrictions however, is not the sole way of doing it.

 

You can't have everything on the side of Templars argument-wise.

 

It's not the trainiing that is the problem, it's the police by the Templars and the Chantry.

 

They chose a way that will 100% lead to an all out war. And it happened.

 

It's not that hard to imagine yourself in that position. You are raised to believe you are nothing, a liability to the world. You are despised by everyone because you wield magic. You are secluded, and in fear.

 

They tell you to be Vigilant. You need to understand this good, not have people brainwash you into doing it. Not being secluded from the world and always pressured, living like an object or weapon, and not a human. This recipe for disaster.

 

You can't expect a society to prosper based on "security", that is based on people being treated as potential weapons and liabilities, stripping them of their freedom because of that.

 

And no, you can't have all the cake and eat it too. There is no such thing as "Mages being in constant danger of becoming abominaitons". Even before the Circle system, and where the Circles do not exist as they are, are people plagued by abominations killing hundreds every day?

 

 

They aren't imprisoned for life. They shouldn't be, and it is possible that the existing system was too restrictive in quantity, but in terms of quality, we know apprentices can travel without templar supervision if they travel with their masters in some Circles.

 

 

In places without Circles they're treated as natural disasters. Probably not a hundreds per day thing, but more of a hundreds per year in a sudden event.

 

 

There is also the problem of blood magic. It only takes a single mage to be the catalyst for a new Tevinter(since mages can mind control people, they can more or less start revolutions or execute coups night singlehandedly).

 

 

Furthermore, an international organization is needed to oversee the process of raising and training mages because of issues such as the nobles' claim to the military service and revenues of a mage. Having the mages directly subject to a feudal society is a recipe for disaster.

 

 

The Circle system grants them freedom from a feudal society, but curtails travel, and is overly vulnerable to administrator abuse. I think the overseers of the templars, that is the Sisterhood(correct name?) of the Chantry should be more directly involved in the caretaking of mages.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Mornmagor:  Actually, in Rivain abominations are so common they call them natural disasters...

 

I would suspect the Templars in Tevinter are very much like SWAT teams who just mercilessly take out abominations and their families to the delight of other Magisters.

 

When did I say the current system works?

 

This idea that mages can just be like everyone else - I believe is not supported by Bioware. "Something" must be put in place to compensate for a mage's shortcomings.

A mundane gets drunk and loses a little control... and he ends up with an STD.

 

A mage gets angry and gives in to a Rage demon - and a few city blocks are destroyed with an Earthquake spell. 

[Beerfish]

That's hardly my problem, and not one I have any obligation to answer.

 

If you want me to answer you, some respect is in order.

Typical hurt feelings response.

 

Make a post that is worded in an absolute way.

 

The content of the post is way beyond any sort of real logic.

 

When challenged in the content of the way out there post whine like a quarian with a tummy ache.

 

The tone of your first couple of posts were not 'respectful'  the content of the post was certainly not respectful  (mages should be able to do anwythign they want who cares about the rest of the world.)

 

And now you are all bent out of shape about not getting a respectful reply.  Look in the mirror first dude or dudette.

[Mornmagor]

They are not like everyone else, no, but there is a way to control your power without going berserk, if there isn't, then the system will have failed to be given a solution.

 

Also, Mages with proper training give in to spirits to be possessed, they don't just get "invaded" like that.

 

If every Mage was becoming a Rage Demon just because they got angry, well, there is no point to talk about a setting like that. There would be no setting.

 

The possiblity of it happening, doesn't constitute of it happening.

 

I consider the current way Mages are treated ethically wrong. And any person involved directly as a Mage, no matter how vigilant they want to be, will feel the pressure, when they will have to live a life secluded from their family, and stripped of freedom and choices.

 

IMO, people are easy to be pro-Templar, because they can imagine their security being threatened in real life as well. But for pro-Mage, it's not so often to have an equal fear of having no freedom at all. You can feel the fear of your security being non existant, or being threatened by a power that can harm you, but you can't feel as strongly, the possibility that you might get oppressed because you are a potential liability to anyone else around you.

 

The first case is much more seen in real life.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Mornmagor:  I am not Pro-Templar. 

 

And yes, I do tend to think about how my actions would affect those around me before I make them.  And yes, if I heard voices and saw images and felt my body was being invaded - if I was capable of it mentally - I would absolutely inter myself in an asylum.  I also agreed with Samara about the Ardat Yakshi. 

 

And mages had plenty of freedom - they just had to prove they were worthy of the trust.  (Like Wynne, Vivienne, Finn, Ines)

[Vandicus]

They are not like everyone else, no, but there is a way to control your power without going berserk, if there isn't, then the system will have failed to be given a solution.

 

Also, Mages with proper training give in to spirits to be possessed, they don't just get "invaded" like that.

 

If every Mage was becoming a Rage Demon just because they got angry, well, there is no point to talk about a setting like that. There would be no setting.

 

The possiblity of it happening, doesn't constitute of it happening.

 

I consider the current way Mages are treated ethically wrong. And any person involved directly as a Mage, no matter how vigilant they want to be, will feel the pressure, when they will have to live a life secluded from their family, and stripped of freedom and choices.

 

IMO, people are easy to be pro-Templar, because they can imagine their security being threatened in real life as well. But for pro-Mage, it's not so often to have an equal fear of having no freedom at all. You can feel the fear of your security being non existant, or being threatened by a power that can harm you, but you can't feel as strongly, the possibility that you might get oppressed because you are a potential liability to anyone else around you.

 

The first case is much more seen in real life.

 

 

What part of how they are treated?

 

That they are not forced to serve and die in the wars of nobles?

That they are fed and educated rather than starving an illiterate?

That they are free from fear of bandits and darkspawn?

 

We have yet to establish to what degree a mage's ability to travel is different from a serf. We know apprentice level mages can travel with their masters. 

 

We do know of incidents of templar abuse(as we know of incidents of noble abuse of their subjects), which are unquestionably unjust. That doesn't necessarily mean we know the Circle system to be significantly worse than the alternative that mages would experience.

 

In fact the only other alternatives we know of are Tevinter and the original Inquisition, a band of vigilantes.

 

 

Were the leader of the mage rebellion never been taken to a Circle, she would still be a servant on the border of being a slave(its been a while since I read The Calling but I remember her being treated pretty badly) or a slain abomination(due to stress from the aforementioned near slavery). Those mages who come from the lower classes of Orlais or the poorest classes of Thedas are most likely in a much better situation than before, while understandably the Emiles of the world most likely do not find the Circle very pleasant.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In fact the only other alternatives we know of are Tevinter and the original Inquisition, a band of vigilantes.

From all we can tell this band of vigilantes is exactly what the Templars represent themselves as. Genitivi notes that they did not have the good PR that the Templar Order enjoyed at the start of the franchise, but he explains that this partially is because they were perceived by both sides as unfair due to having tried to truly be fair. Which means the only differences between the original Inquisition and the one I want to run (for my first playthrough at least) are the existence of Josephine and the reputation of being run by a man literally chosen for the purpose by the Prophetess.

[herkles]

What part of how they are treated?

 

That they are not forced to serve and die in the wars of nobles?

That they are fed and educated rather than starving an illiterate?

That they are free from fear of bandits and darkspawn?

 

We have yet to establish to what degree a mage's ability to travel is different from a serf. We know apprentice level mages can travel with their masters. 

 

We do know of incidents of templar abuse(as we know of incidents of noble abuse of their subjects), which are unquestionably unjust. That doesn't necessarily mean we know the Circle system to be significantly worse than the alternative that mages would experience.

 

 

Were the leader of the mage rebellion never been taken to a Circle, she would still be a servant on the border of being a slave(its been a while since I read The Calling but I remember her being treated pretty badly) or a slain abomination(due to stress from the aforementioned near slavery). Those mages who come from the lower classes of Orlais or the poorest classes of Thedas are most likely in a much better situation than before, while understandably the Emiles of the world most likely do not find the Circle very pleasant.

 

 

People also bring up how the mages are prisoners, but they flat out ignore the city elves, castless-dwarves, and peasants which also are prisoners by their same definition. City elves can't really leave their allianages, Casteless dwarves are stuck in there own area, and serfs by their nature are tied to the land. They can't just up and leave either. 

 

Most mages circle are much better off then the city elves lives, yet people seem to be far more on their case then the city elves case. Life for a commoner in thedas isn't all that great. For those that live in crippling poverty, ie city elves and casteless dwarves it is far worse. As you said, if fiona or any mage didn't have magical powers their lives would be much worse off. Yet why are they not being defended. 

 

People bring up the fact that mages can't have children or marry, but that is wrong.  mages can, otherwise wynne would not have had her son. 

 

Another thing that I have noticed that kind of annoys me is that the mage supporter seem to ignore and not care about the lives that mages have killed. From Meredith's sister who killed her family to serial killers like Quientin. They seem to ignore that just to focus on their own opression. Do there lives not matter as much as the mages?

 

In fact the only other alternatives we know of are Tevinter and the original Inquisition, a band of vigilantes.

 

 

Nevarra as well has mages in a special place, as advisors to the royal family. Well if you a member of the Mortalitasi, creepy necromancers. but they are weird, but also interesting. 

 

[Adanu]

Typical hurt feelings response.

 

Make a post that is worded in an absolute way.

 

The content of the post is way beyond any sort of real logic.

 

When challenged in the content of the way out there post whine like a quarian with a tummy ache.

 

The tone of your first couple of posts were not 'respectful'  the content of the post was certainly not respectful  (mages should be able to do anwythign they want who cares about the rest of the world.)

 

And now you are all bent out of shape about not getting a respectful reply.  Look in the mirror first dude or dudette.

 

I'm sorry that asking for a little respect is whining to you. You must be a joy to debate or argue with.

[wcholcombe]

People also bring up how the mages are prisoners, but they flat out ignore the city elves, castless-dwarves, and peasants which also are prisoners by their same definition. City elves can't really leave their allianages, Casteless dwarves are stuck in there own area, and serfs by their nature are tied to the land. They can't just up and leave either.

Most mages circle are much better off then the city elves lives, yet people seem to be far more on their case then the city elves case. Life for a commoner in thedas isn't all that great. For those that live in crippling poverty, ie city elves and casteless dwarves it is far worse. As you said, if fiona or any mage didn't have magical powers their lives would be much worse off. Yet why are they not being defended.

People bring up the fact that mages can't have children or marry, but that is wrong. mages can, otherwise wynne would not have had her son.

Another thing that I have noticed that kind of annoys me is that the mage supporter seem to ignore and not care about the lives that mages have killed. From Meredith's sister who killed her family to serial killers like Quientin. They seem to ignore that just to focus on their own opression. Do there lives not matter as much as the mages?




Nevarra as well has mages in a special place, as advisors to the royal family. Well if you a member of the Mortalitasi, creepy necromancers. but they are weird, but also interesting.

Nevarra has circles as well. They are one of the more chantry fervent countries in The dad.