1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

You say this as though you think I like any other nation in Thedas. I don't. All of them are terrible. But the peasantry isn't revolting in any of them, which is why they haven't been a topic of discussion. I'd be happy to support said revolts, but again, they're not happening.

 

Also, "an organization like the Circle" is a question that's priority two in my mind. Priority one is stopping the templars from killing or imprisoning everyone, and ensuring they can never do so again.

Which is kind of tangential to Vivienne's viewpoint on the mage rebellion.

 

The templars are hired hands(they can always get more poor people like Keran), defeating them now won't keep new abuses from occurring under a new system and won't end the conflict, as the mages seem to be seeking independence(I'm not entirely sure to what degree this is meant though, nation, Chantry, templars?)

 

Given their divorce from their civilian base, the source of their legitimacy in the eyes of the populace, their recruitment, and their funding, I honestly don't view the radicalized splinter group of the templars to be a terribly large threat. I may be underestimating them in this.

 

*EDIT

 

A big point of what I'm saying is that if mages define freedom as integration with normal society, not understanding this will include being a serf or living in an Alienage, they're moving blindly. If they know this, I would question their judgement.

 

Granted they are not fully responsible for their viewpoint of the world, but that doesn't make Vivienne's critique of it less valid.

[Xilizhra]

Which is kind of tangential to Vivienne's viewpoint on the mage rebellion.

 

The templars are hired hands(they can always get more poor people like Keran), defeating them now won't keep new abuses from occurring under a new system and won't end the conflict, as the mages seem to be seeking independence(I'm not entirely sure to what degree this is meant though, nation, Chantry, templars?)

 

Given their divorce from their civilian base, the source of their legitimacy in the eyes of the populace, their recruitment, and their funding, I honestly don't view the radicalized splinter group of the templars to be a terribly large threat. I may be underestimating them in this.

 

*EDIT

 

A big point of what I'm saying is that if mages define freedom as integration with normal society, not understanding this will include being a serf or living in an Alienage, they're moving blindly. If they know this, I would question their judgement.

 

Granted they are not fully responsible for their viewpoint of the world, but that doesn't make Vivienne's critique of it less valid.

I doubt that the mages would want integration with normal society; there are too many practical issues. I think they want to have independent Circles with their own government.

[Vandicus]

I doubt that the mages would want integration with normal society; there are too many practical issues. I think they want to have independent Circles with their own government.

 

I struggle to see the difference between a society governed by mages and in-exile from mundane society and the previous system.

 

Tevinter does not suggest that rulership by mages would necessarily be less abusive towards the mages themselves(though offering more potential for advancement for the ruthless and unscrupulous).

 

It has the same problem of people having power over one another and potentially offers even less oversight.

 

A lot of the issues with the prior system could have been fixed without resorting to what will appear to the rest of Thedas as a declaration of war by mages on mundanes.

 

The combination of Celene, Justinia, and Vivienne, makes me question whether mages are not risking a huge amount of backlash and possibly worse conditions than before as well as throwing away what should've been a great opportunity to reform much of the system.

[Xilizhra]

I struggle to see the difference between a society governed by mages and in-exile from mundane society and the previous system.

 

Tevinter does not suggest that rulership by mages would necessarily be less abusive towards the mages themselves(though offering more potential for advancement for the ruthless and unscrupulous).

 

It has the same problem of people having power over one another and potentially offers even less oversight.

 

A lot of the issues with the prior system could have been fixed without resorting to what will appear to the rest of Thedas as a declaration of war by mages on mundanes.

 

The combination of Celene, Justinia, and Vivienne, makes me question whether mages are not risking a huge amount of backlash and possibly worse conditions than before as well as throwing away what should've been a great opportunity to reform much of the system.

Well, Celene's deeply unreliable, Justinia is dead, and Vivienne is a cipher. And no reform could ever have happened with the templars blocking everything; they'd amassed too much power, and had to go one way or another.

[Vandicus]

Well, Celene's deeply unreliable, Justinia is dead, and Vivienne is a cipher. And no reform could ever have happened with the templars blocking everything; they'd amassed too much power, and had to go one way or another.

 

 

Justinia's death, while due to to the shadowy manipulations of the BBEG, would probably not have happened in a situation where mage leadership already had an unquestionably positive relationship with her(the purpose of her assassination being to cast blame on the mages, if blaming the mages for her death would've seemed absurd the assassination would not have occurred. 

 

Given the templar's increasingly blatant disregard for the main branch of the Chantry and Justinia's authority, the mages could have been in an amazing position to support Justinia and appear to be the loyal and reasonable good guys of the conflict, while essentially resulting in a team up with the Chantry to stop the depredations of radicalized templars.

 

In the current situation, its harder for any Divine to push for a better system for mages without justifying the templar viewpoint and providing evidence for their cause.

 

What do you mean by Vivienne's a cipher, as in we don't know what she was really after? That mages couldn't have guessed she could be working for the benefit of mages?

 

Fair enough on the first, but what we know of her so far reflects well on her in my opinion. Even if she weren't working for the benefit of mages as a whole, I find her to be an excellent example for mages to follow. If mages were as widely respected as they were in Navarra or as Vivienne had become, their treatment would improve.

 

Even if Vivienne's being overly cynical about how prepared mages are for this rebellion and whether they can truly expect the rebellion to have good results, I think her opinion reflects a personality that is more grounded than what I have generally seen for characters for templars or mages. She seems to be actually concerned with the detail work and practical concerns behind potential changes, which I like about her.

[Xilizhra]

Justinia's death, while due to to the shadowy manipulations of the BBEG, would probably not have happened in a situation where mage leadership already had an unquestionably positive relationship with her(the purpose of her assassination being to cast blame on the mages, if blaming the mages for her death would've seemed absurd the assassination would not have occurred. 

 

Given the templar's increasingly blatant disregard for the main branch of the Chantry and Justinia's authority, the mages could have been in an amazing position to support Justinia and appear to be the loyal and reasonable good guys of the conflict, while essentially resulting in a team up with the Chantry to stop the depredations of radicalized templars.

 

In the current situation, its harder for any Divine to push for a better system for mages without justifying the templar viewpoint and providing evidence for their cause.

 

What do you mean by Vivienne's a cipher, as in we don't know what she was really after? That mages couldn't have guessed she could be working for the benefit of mages?

 

Fair enough on the first, but what we know of her so far reflects well on her in my opinion. Even if she weren't working for the benefit of mages as a whole, I find her to be an excellent example for mages to follow. If mages were as widely respected as they were in Navarra or as Vivienne had become, their treatment would improve.

 

Even if Vivienne's being overly cynical about how prepared mages are for this rebellion and whether they can truly expect the rebellion to have good results, I think her opinion reflects a personality that is more grounded than what I have generally seen for characters for templars or mages. She seems to be actually concerned with the detail work and practical concerns behind potential changes, which I like about her.

I don't think any real compromise with Justinia could have been worked out. She didn't really do her part to rein the templars in, and never seemed like a true ally of the mages; certainly she didn't do enough to overcome the wall of justified distrust there.

 

And yes, Vivienne seems to have her own agenda, and it won't necessarily lead to a good place for the rest of the mages. It's possible, but I won't count on it.

[Adanu]

And elves are completely mistreated by EVERYONE, and generally don't have the power to fight back.  They aren't educated, live in the slums of cities, are considered inferior citizens, and there isn't anyplace in Thedas except perhaps running to the Qun for elves to get away from oppression.

 

Whereas mages are taken care of if they behave, have ALL THE POWER IN THE WORLD, are educated, live in safe towers, and are treated with fear but also respect.  And if a mage really hates all that crap, the Tevinter Imperium exists as a place where mages rule.  

 

No, it isn't similar.  In one case we have blatant racism, in the other we have justified fear.  

I'd go into a detailed essay about how you are wrong here, but I doubt I'm changing your mind, so I'll just say this.

 

Tower=slum, mistreatment=everyone, power=evidence of how dangerous they are, running to the Qun=worse while Tevinter=cuthroat place that won't appreciate the extra competition.

 

Suffice to say that any differences are really pedantic

[Vandicus]

I don't think any real compromise with Justinia could have been worked out. She didn't really do her part to rein the templars in, and never seemed like a true ally of the mages; certainly she didn't do enough to overcome the wall of justified distrust there.

 

And yes, Vivienne seems to have her own agenda, and it won't necessarily lead to a good place for the rest of the mages. It's possible, but I won't count on it.

 

She sided with the mages over the templars when the mages voted for independence. The annulment of the Nevarran Accord by the Templar Order, which could be seen as treasonous, was a perfect opportunity to appeal to the Divine for the creation of a new system. Involving the Chantry in the creation of the new system would've been very much more palatable to the nobles and peasants of Thedas(who probably aren't very keen on the idea of independent mages fighting wars in their lands and trying to carve out a piece of it for themselves) as well as potentially allowing access to the vast resources of the Chantry.

 

Although this is all really what-if at this point.

 

I nevertheless find Vivienne's concern with the practical details behind ideologically driven behavior refreshing.

[wcholcombe]

Last Flight. None of those dons were summoned nor was there evidence of a thon veil.

Also, if summoning a demon is so simple and easy that Connor can do it without even realizing it, what does it matter.

[Ryriena]

Last Flight. None of those dons were summoned nor was there evidence of a thon veil.

Also, if summoning a demon is so simple and easy that Connor can do it without even realizing it, what does it matter.

In the Last Flight those demons were summoned, and no evidence of a torn Veil. I never read the last flight, so who's too say the veil is not thined in that location. Do you know the history of said location? I doubt that.

As for Connor, he found a book on blood magic in Jowan's room. He's a child whom made contacted in his mind and according too Jowan the torn Veil within the estate was the cause for the demon to manifest.

[Keroko]

Iansum, he is not a AMERICAN president, he is an inventor and founder of the American Revolution. What did they teach you in school, since that is history 101?

 

European schools often don't spend a lot of time on the American Revolution. It's a side note to history classes here, not one of its 101's.

 

 

Then show me a situation where a mage was possessed when the Veil wasn't already ripped, or the demon had been summoned before, and I'll believe you.

 

Connor. As I recall, Redcliffe's veil wasn't particularly weak until Connor's magical talent awoke.

 

 

I'd go into a detailed essay about how you are wrong here, but I doubt I'm changing your mind, so I'll just say this.

 

Tower=slum, mistreatment=everyone, power=evidence of how dangerous they are, running to the Qun=worse while Tevinter=cuthroat place that won't appreciate the extra competition.

 

Suffice to say that any differences are really pedantic

 

Pendantic? If the mage tower is a slum, it's the cleanest, most well-kept, well-stocked and spacious slum I've ever seen. Did you play the mage Origins? You get your own bathtub when you graduate from apprenticeship. Some of the higher-ranked mages go even grander with stone bathtubs. As in hot spring sized bathtubs. Private ones. Even among nobility that is the height of luxury.
 

The mistreatment towards everyone is blatantly false. In Kirkwall, yes. But in the Ferelden tower there is literally no sign of templar abuse. Even the blood mage we confront when the tower has gone to hell can only raise "they're always watching" as her worst critique.

 

Power is evidence of how dangerous they are, yes. And that danger is why the Circles exist. Which is still better than the elves, who are kept down for being... uh, born with pointy ears?

 

Heck, the fact that elves are running towards the Qun shows how bad they have it.

 

And yes, Tevinter is a cutthroat society. Power corrupts, and all that.

 

Look, I agree that the Circle system as it was can't be called "not oppressive" with a straight face, but the idea that mages had it just as bad as elves is ludicrous.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Keroko:  Depends on what "not oppressive" means actually.  

 

I believe the Circles were heavily monitored, not oppressive.  I don't believe I have been shown how a functioning Circle is oppressive.  Neither the White Spire from Asunder, nor the tower of Ferelden, seemed at all oppressive to me.

 

What I have seen - is abuse.  Kirkwall is the obvious example as the city seems to be a hotbed for crazy.  In Ferelden I saw no explicit examples of abuse.  In the White Spire I saw a handful of examples of abuse. 

 

As for overall: 

 

- I actually understand the concept behind the restrictions on family and while I think it is likely they are abused - I'd like to hear reasons "why" the Chantry doesn't allow it.  I'm not interested in BSN head canon that it's just to be horrible.  If there is no reason for it - then I can know that Bioware has stated it is just an abusive act.  If the reasoning for it is sound (and I believe there is sound reason) - then it is in need of reforms because it likely became abused.

 

- I support not only one Harrowing, but a yearly Harrowing.  I would support this as a mage and I could care less what BSN forumite thinks I wouldn't.  

 

- Tranquility is a hypocrisy the new mage order will keep.  People on the BSN will decry it - but they're going to see that whatever comes next will still have Tranquil.  It's too profitable not to have Tranquil as that would put Enchanting solely in the hands of the dwarves (a fact the dwarves would likely be really happy about).  

 

While I find the concept of Tranquility fascinating story-wise... death would be preferable in all situations.  

 

Still, we have a few examples of mages who CHOSE Tranquility.  Again, I am not interested in BSN head canon that they did so because of the Chantry.  If Bioware states that Owain chose Tranquility because of some outside pressure - then I will believe it.

 

- The whole "Mages can't go get ****-faced at the nearest pub" is not something I would personally care too deeply about.  Were I a mage on Thedas - my time would be devoted to magic - not being some common schlep who's more worried about where to stick his wick.  Again - as I spend 7 days a week running my business - I'm not interested in caring about what BSN forumites think bout my truthfulness in this.  

 

- There's not even a point discussing the obvious abuses that should be punishable by hard labor or death like the rapes, any possible unjust Tranquility, beatings, neglect, etc. etc.  Those should be stopped and crushed. 

 

- Were I a mage on Thedas - and had I the chance to achieve First Enchanter - a great many mages would be applying to other Circles because I think the Circles are an embarrassing mess as far as the mages themselves go.  Maker help the Thedosian mages if I became Grand Enchanter - they'd be on a course to rival Tevinter, but life wouldn't be easy for a successful Circle mage had I any say. 

 

- Annulment is necessary - but the concept that all mages should be put to the sword is just the easiest (and most despicable) solution possible.  Greagoir at least shows the weight of the decision.  As far as telling possessed from non-possessed... I actually would be interested in looking into something like sensory deprivation.  Also - what is the reasoning we can tell Connor is possessed... but not any other mage?  A lot more  needs to be done in attempting to separate mages - from the compromised - especially since currently, it's "nothing".  Which is unacceptable.

 

Lastly - discussing concepts like duty, work ethic, responsibility and the like with younger people is difficult as they often have no perspective other than "break away"!  Mix that with the people who project their own personal minority onto the mages... and the topic literally cannot be discussed reasonably. 

[PhroXenGold]

Lastly - discussing concepts like duty, work ethic, responsibility and the like with younger people is difficult as they often have no perspective other than "break away"!  Mix that with the people who project their own personal minority onto the mages... and the topic literally cannot be discussed reasonably. 

 

Ain't that the truth. A decade ago, I'd've been a die hard supporter of mage liberty. As I've grown up, as I've actually experienced the world, I've come to understand that there are more important things in life than freedom, and that issues such as this are never black and white.

[Vilegrim]

Ferelden has a rank called "freeholder," which basically translates to "landed commoner." I think I remember that Orlais has serfs. As for "a prison where they're constantly being watched by armored overlords," one could argue that the Alienages qualify. (I'll see if I can do something about that, since at least the Templars have some reason to fear the mages. It might not even be that hard, since the elves seem to be thinking along the same lines in the Dales.) As for the rest of your points, they're legitimate, and all I can say is that I can see why it's all done and can't see how to avoid both those practices and the problems they're meant to avert.

 

 

torture to death the entire bloodline of any templar who breaks the rules could work.  Not moral by any means, but you asked for a method that would work. That's aunts, uncles, parents, brothers, sisters etc etc.  Brutal, but then so is tranquillity, kidnap, and random rapes.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Vilegrim:  Can we do that to any mage who becomes an abomination too?

[wcholcombe]

In the Last Flight those demons were summoned, and no evidence of a torn Veil. I never read the last flight, so who's too say the veil is not thined in that location. Do you know the history of said location? I doubt that.

As for Connor, he found a book on blood magic in Jowan's room. He's a child whom made contacted in his mind and according too Jowan the torn Veil within the estate was the cause for the demon to manifest.

Considering one of them is flying on a griffin in the air.....

Again if summoning a demon is as simple as a magical child opening a book, doesn't that indicate the danger.

[wcholcombe]

Also, as we have seen in both last flight and DAI. Not all mages are locked up in towers.

The anti van crows have mages and mercenary groups openly have mages that are completely free of towers.

[Xilizhra]

She sided with the mages over the templars when the mages voted for independence. The annulment of the Nevarran Accord by the Templar Order, which could be seen as treasonous, was a perfect opportunity to appeal to the Divine for the creation of a new system. Involving the Chantry in the creation of the new system would've been very much more palatable to the nobles and peasants of Thedas(who probably aren't very keen on the idea of independent mages fighting wars in their lands and trying to carve out a piece of it for themselves) as well as potentially allowing access to the vast resources of the Chantry.

 

Although this is all really what-if at this point.

 

I nevertheless find Vivienne's concern with the practical details behind ideologically driven behavior refreshing.

The mages couldn't contact the Divine by that point; they had to retreat to Andoral's Reach, and the Divine has no sending stones. I wouldn't be surprised that trying to work something out would be why they'd attend the peace conference, but then that gets blown up and no more help from the Chantry would be forthcoming.

 

 

Last Flight. None of those dons were summoned nor was there evidence of a thon veil.

Also, if summoning a demon is so simple and easy that Connor can do it without even realizing it, what does it matter.

IIRC, didn't you mention that those abominations were voluntary? Also, untrained mages can do a lot of crazy things by accident, and Connor in particular was desperate.

 

 

Connor. As I recall, Redcliffe's veil wasn't particularly weak until Connor's magical talent awoke.

The demon had been summoned prior, and in any case Connor chose that state deliberately.

 

 

Pendantic? If the mage tower is a slum, it's the cleanest, most well-kept, well-stocked and spacious slum I've ever seen. Did you play the mage Origins? You get your own bathtub when you graduate from apprenticeship. Some of the higher-ranked mages go even grander with stone bathtubs. As in hot spring sized bathtubs. Private ones. Even among nobility that is the height of luxury.

And the templars are spying on you through all of them.

 

 

The mistreatment towards everyone is blatantly false. In Kirkwall, yes. But in the Ferelden tower there is literally no sign of templar abuse. Even the blood mage we confront when the tower has gone to hell can only raise "they're always watching" as her worst critique.

Except for mind rape, being thrown without support into a demon's maw, and attempted summary executions... and those are the legal abuses. Anders goes into a bit more detail later on.

 

 

Look, I agree that the Circle system as it was can't be called "not oppressive" with a straight face, but the idea that mages had it just as bad as elves is ludicrous.

I entirely support the concept of city elf uprisings as well.

 

 

- The whole "Mages can't go get ****-faced at the nearest pub" is not something I would personally care too deeply about.  Were I a mage on Thedas - my time would be devoted to magic - not being some common schlep who's more worried about where to stick his wick.  Again - as I spend 7 days a week running my business - I'm not interested in caring about what BSN forumites think bout my truthfulness in this. 

I'm more concerned that you don't seem to care about anyone else but yourself in this statement.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra:  Oh, pot meet kettle. 

 

The truth is - that Rhys states plainly that they're allowed short jaunts out of the tower.  What people here want - is to be completely unmonitored - and I am absolutely against that.  My commentary was more hyperbole than anything.

 

Rhys even goes to Tevinter unmonitored - so let's just stop the head canon crusade.  It certainly isn't everyone who gets that - he states clearly it's unprecedented.  But Finn, Ines and Wynne don't seem to have issues traipsing about. 

 

The mages who "do" seem to have issues getting dispensation?  Psychotic fire mages who want to burn everything at the slightest provocation.  And I say:  Absolutely.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:  Oh, pot meet kettle. 

 

The truth is - that Rhys states plainly that they're allowed short jaunts out of the tower.  What people here want - is to be completely unmonitored - and I am absolutely against that.  My commentary was more hyperbole than anything.

 

Rhys even goes to Tevinter unmonitored - so let's just stop the head canon crusade.  It certainly isn't everyone who gets that - he states clearly it's unprecedented.  But Finn, Ines and Wynne don't seem to have issues traipsing about. 

 

The mages who "do" seem to have issues getting dispensation?  Psychotic fire mages who want to burn everything at the slightest provocation.  And I say:  Absolutely.

And I'm willing to negotiate on the details of this... after we get rid of the damn templars trying to kill/imprison us all. I'll agree that mages need to be protected from demons, and that some kind of institution to enforce that would probably exist, but I refuse to let it have nonrepresentative government, and I refuse to allow magophobic zealots to dominate it.

 

Also, IIRC, travel restrictions weren't even mentioned as a reason for secession to begin with.

[Keroko]

As for Connor, he found a book on blood magic in Jowan's room. He's a child whom made contacted in his mind and according too Jowan the torn Veil within the estate was the cause for the demon to manifest.

 
A mage doesn't need blood magic to make contact with demons, and according to Jowan Connor was responsible for tearing the Veil in the first place.
 

The demon had been summoned prior, and in any case Connor chose that state deliberately.

The demon was summoned prior? That's the first I ever heard that. But even if you were right, the knowledge that Connor, a child, can summon a desire demon without any formal training does not speak well of the safety of magic.

Connor's the one who fell to the demon's tricks, yes, which is... kind of the point when people point out the dangers of magic.
 

And the templars are spying on you through all of them.

I noticed no peep holes in any of the mage rooms, to be honest.  

But the point is that calling those luxurious rooms slums is ridiculous.
 

Except for mind rape, being thrown without support into a demon's maw, and attempted summary executions... and those are the legal abuses. Anders goes into a bit more detail later on.

And how many mages suffered those in the Ferelden tower? I counted... two tranquil. Three if you count Jowan, who would become one. The aforementioned two chose their fate of their own volition.

The annulment was a logical choice. Cruel, but logical. You did see that tower, right? It was infested top to bottom with abominations, demons and corrupted templars and mages. Hell, the entire structure was slowly turning into one, big sack of flesh. The only reason we managed to do what we did was because we're the goddamn hero of Ferelden. The very fact that Gregoir was willing to let us at least try and willing to believe the tower was safe on Irving's word alone speaks volumes of templar lenience, not their cruelty.

And the harrowing... well, how else are we to test a mage's capability of seeing through a demon's deceit?
  

I entirely support the concept of city elf uprisings as well.

 
I'd rather they just leave and rebuilt their society. Little good can come of an uprising. The elves are outnumbered, unarmed, untrained... it'd be a slaughter. The only reason the mage uprising even worked at all was because mages have magic on their side.
 

I'm more concerned that you don't seem to care about anyone else but yourself in this statement.

The mages who started the rebellion didn't care much more about others either.

[Xilizhra]

The demon was summoned prior? That's the first I ever heard that. But even if you were right, the knowledge that Connor, a child, can summon a desire demon without any formal training does not speak well of the safety of magic.

Connor's the one who fell to the demon's tricks, yes, which is... kind of the point when people point out the dangers of magic.

It's also quite easy to trip and fall onto a knife without any formal training, but that doesn't mean we ban knives. I'm all for training young mages well, yes... and since Connor's feat doesn't seem to be repeated by any other mage child ever, it seems to work out.

 

 

I noticed no peep holes in any of the mage rooms, to be honest.  

But the point is that calling those luxurious rooms slums is ridiculous.

They wouldn't be good peepholes if you could see them, could you?

 

 

 And how many mages suffered those in the Ferelden tower? I counted... two tranquil. Three if you count Jowan, who would become one. The aforementioned two chose their fate of their own volition.

The annulment was a logical choice. Cruel, but logical. You did see that tower, right? It was infested top to bottom with abominations, demons and corrupted templars and mages. Hell, the entire structure was slowly turning into one, big sack of flesh. The only reason we managed to do what we did was because we're the goddamn hero of Ferelden. The very fact that Gregoir was willing to let us at least try and willing to believe the tower was safe on Irving's word alone speaks volumes of templar lenience, not their cruelty.

And the harrowing... well, how else are we to test a mage's capability of seeing through a demon's deceit?

All of them in Uldred's rebellion, plus Anders, plus all of the suicides that Anders mentions (and there are more Tranquil than those). The Annulment was... well, either there were very few abominations or abominations are as weak as gameplay shows them to be, because the alternative is painfully illogical--also, we weren't the Hero of Ferelden yet, but a bunch of misfits barely out of Lothering. And Greagoir has been known to physically abuse pregnant women in the comics, aforementioned mind rape and summary executions aside.

On the Harrowing... some way that won't involve death to the apprentice in question? Like sending two mages into the Fade, one who can take out the demon if need be? Even our most hardcore military organizations don't have death as the penalty for failing training.

 

 

 I'd rather they just leave and rebuilt their society. Little good can come of an uprising. The elves are outnumbered, unarmed, untrained... it'd be a slaughter. The only reason the mage uprising even worked at all was because mages have magic on their side.

Perhaps, but carving out a space would be difficult too.

 

 

The mages who started the rebellion didn't care much more about others either.

Entirely baseless. Certainly they were concerned about other mages--not to mention that they never attacked the Chantry, the templars attacked them, both before and after leaving the Chantry.

[AshesEleven]

I'd go into a detailed essay about how you are wrong here, but I doubt I'm changing your mind, so I'll just say this.

 

Tower=slum, mistreatment=everyone, power=evidence of how dangerous they are, running to the Qun=worse while Tevinter=cuthroat place that won't appreciate the extra competition.

 

Suffice to say that any differences are really pedantic

 

Nope.  Yes but at varying levels.  EXACTLY MY POINT.  The Qun is much better for a lot of people and much worse for others (like Mages).  That's neither true or untrue, we don't know enough.

 

The mages and the elves suffer completely different kinds of prejudice, and it's way too simplistic, and wrong, to paint them with the same brush.  Racism is not the same thing as forced containment and imprisonment, and if you think that it is...well I'm not sure what to tell you.  Also a little tip, don't say "I'd explain further but I won't change your mind".  If you're insecure with your position don't turn it on me and pretend it's my fault for being an idiot and you're just too smart for this discussion.  That's the adult way of holding your hands over your ears and shouting "LALALALA".  

[Ryriena]

European schools often don't spend a lot of time on the American Revolution. It's a side note to history classes here, not one of its 101's.

I see how that would be a sore spot for the Crown, after all, they were beaten by mostly farmers. Though, I knew about Europen history just much as Russian history, to the point, my IQ tester was surprised I knew, who Queen Catharine the Great was, since I was the apparently first person too actually get that question correct...." I also learned the players mostly in history 101, but I find that stuff interesting.

[Keroko]

It's also quite easy to trip and fall onto a knife without any formal training, but that doesn't mean we ban knives. I'm all for training young mages well, yes... and since Connor's feat doesn't seem to be repeated by any other mage child ever, it seems to work out.

Last I checked "falling on a knife" doesn't kill the majority of a village. Falling on a rigged detonator might, and lo behold we do keep those safely locked away until they're needed.

As for Connor's feat not being repeated... well, no. That's why Meredith is so paranoid: Her sister had bad a case of abomination as well. Killed a good number of people before being put down. So no, Connor is not an isolated feat. The only reason we see so few children turning into abominations is exactly because they're send to the Circle so young.
 

They wouldn't be good peepholes if you could see them, could you?

True, but solid brick walls tend to be hard to drill a peephole through unnoticed.
 

All of them in Uldred's rebellion, plus Anders, plus all of the suicides that Anders mentions (and there are more Tranquil than those).

The worst complaint Uldred's rebels offered was "they are always watching..." and mister "I escaped from the Circle seven times and barely got more than a slap of the wrist and being send to bed without dinner" Anders is not the most credible source when it comes to the suffering of mages in Ferelden.

At least not his words, because the fact that he was allowed to escape seven times before the templars had enough of his escapades is again a sign of leniency rather than cruelty.
 

The Annulment was... well, either there were very few abominations or abominations are as weak as gameplay shows them to be, because the alternative is painfully illogical--also, we weren't the Hero of Ferelden yet, but a bunch of misfits barely out of Lothering. And Greagoir has been known to physically abuse pregnant women in the comics, aforementioned mind rape and summary executions aside.

The abominations completely overpowered the mages and templars in the tower. That speaks volumes of their strength.
 

I see how that would be a sore spot for the Crown, after all, they were beaten by mostly farmers. Though, I knew about Europen history just much as Russian history, to the point, my IQ tester was surprised I knew, who Queen Catharine the Great was, since I was the apparently first person too actually get that question correct...." I also learned the players mostly in history 101, but I find that stuff interesting.

To the Brits, maybe, but I can assure you a lot of other countries don't think much of it. (well, maybe a bit annoyed at how Americans keep yammering on about how its the most important thing to happen ever, but eh, every country has their pride )

European history is so chock-full of events our books can have a tendency to fill their limited page numbers with more local history.
 

On the Harrowing... some way that won't involve death to the apprentice in question? Like sending two mages into the Fade, one who can take out the demon if need be? Even our most hardcore military organizations don't have death as the penalty for failing training.

If the demon thinks it doesn't have a chance then it won't rise to the bait. The entire point of the Harrowing is to bait a demon into making a genuine attempt at taking over a mage. With a senior mage present, the test is ruined before it even begins.
 

Perhaps, but carving out a space would be difficult too.

They're going to have to start carving out a space for themselves anyway. By not starting the thing as a war, they have a much bigger chance of avoiding the war entirely.
 
 

Entirely baseless. Certainly they were concerned about other mages--not to mention that they never attacked the Chantry, the templars attacked them, both before and after leaving the Chantry.

No, they weren't. That's exactly Vivienne's point. The mages who voted for separation did not for one moment stop to think "what will separating from the Chantry accomplish? What effect will it have on children awakening magic after we do so?" They were only concerned with their own freedom, not the future for mages as a whole.