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Vivienne's opinions on rebel mages (maybe spoilers)


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#126
Medhia_Nox

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@Zu Long:  Oh, I totally agree. 

 

But being certain of nothing really leaves nothing worth talking about. 

 

Theory is a fun little game - but nothing can get done unless decisions are made.

 

I'd rather make a decision that sees the larger spectrum - and I believe mine does - than pick either "All mages bad." or "All Templars bad."  If you can illuminate how I might be wrong - and I should see things differently - I am very open and have indeed asked to be illuminated twice now.  

 

Also - I have observed.  I've observed what Bioware says about mages.  I have observed how the Libertarians act.  I have observed how mages like Wynne act.  I have observed Kirkwall.  

 

If your function is to watch... that's the "get out of the way" part.  Mine is to be involved - which requires a stance.  Even though I'd do everything I could to crush someone like Xilizhra in my playthrough (and Adrian will be her proxy no doubt) - I admire that she actually takes a stand. (not sure if Xil is actually a she).



#127
ArvinDulku

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Since you replied to me, I assume that your comment is meant as a rebuttal against my game-supported assertion that nonCircle mages may actually be less in danger of becoming unwilling abominations/lose control of their powers and accidentally harm others or themselves than Circle mages.

"One went full on fubar, cursing entire generations of human due to racism and rage at something their ancestors did"
That was due to Zathrien's bigotry, which has nothing to do with being a mage and all to do with his prejudice against humans.

"the other gleefully embraces blood and nearly gets devoured by a demon"
She embraced blood magic as gleefully as she embraced magic in general. On second fact, she may have actually been even less gleeful with blood magic since she always was aware of the danger and never was foolish enough to actually trust ANY spirit since her Dalish upbringing taught her that all spirits are dangerous, not just demons. Don't forget that Merrill brought Hawke along so that Hawke could kill her if she became possessed.
Merrill was perhaps the most responsible blood mage in game so far. She handled the risks without succumbing to possession or the belief that demons just want to be bffs AND when she knew that she was walking into a dangerous situation wherein possession was possible, she made sure to bring along someone well prepared to kill her if it came to that.
Don't forget that she survived for approximately ten years (if not more) as a blood mage without any negative consequences directly due to that (isolation from her clan doesn't count since that was due to their reactions and not the blood magic itself).
"But I also put forward the reason we dont see the dangerous one is in fact most are probably actively hunted by templar death squads or are imprisoned at Aeonar."
That is possible. It is merely not supported in-game whereas my claim has some support in-game.

"Mind, you points are perfectly valid, I just think its unlikely to be so cut and dry."
I agree. That's why I made sure to say that "The stress of the Circles or the level of education in the Circles may be a reason for that difference" instead of using "is".


Huh, I was replying to you but somehow quoted someone else, weird.

In regards to Zathrien, it actually does have something to do with magic. While all Dalish are bigoted dicks, the fact this turd is a mage allows him the opportunity to enact such a horrifying act. Thus is only amplifies the fact that Magic needs to be supervised.

On Merril, I willingly concede you probably are right. My Primary or rather Canon run of Hawke had him disagreeing with her vehemently most time, so that might color my view of her subconsciously despite my other 2 Hawkes getting on famously with her.

Anyhow, yes, it is all opinions. So I agree there.

#128
llandwynwyn

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Are you kidding? No matter how good you are, what your origin or morals, the only course of action you should ever take in Orzammar as the Grey Warden is to ensure Bhelen takes the throne so that the casteless can gain more rights and acceptance as citizens. And you must destroy the Anvil, so that none of the nobility can force the less fortunate to go through the procedure as volunteers dry up.


Slides are considered rumor and we've seen first hand the reform, if there was one. Bhelen also doesn't have a magic wand.


Most likely because the dwarves are so insular, that they don't talk about the casteless, therefore no one knows about them, so they don't get help. A vicious circle if you will.


The players know, though. We've seen it on DAO. It wasn't pretty.

#129
cronshaw

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so if you watched the recent stream you probably saw the convo with Vivienne where she essentially mocks the rebellious mages for being selfish childish narcissistic brats. All they cared about was the templars being mean to them and the events of asunder i'm assuming, ignoring the fact that they lived luxurious lives completely away from the suffering of the average thedosian, who probably viewed them less than charitably after Anders little stunt and several attempts on the life of the divine,  which i found to be both hilarious and accurate.  what did you guys think, was she right? or at least interesting :P

I didn't see it but your description makes it sound like a gross oversimplification espoused by someone who seems to care more about those luxuries than actual freedom.



#130
ManOfSteel

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I feel I'm going to like Vivienne. She understands.



#131
Nerevar-as

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I think the Tevinter Imperium of old(Circa -before the existence of darkspawn) proves that uncaged mages can cause much more pain than the average "noble" ever could... Beside, at present, mundanes in Thedas are nobles(in Andrastian nations) because they've forced the mages into Circles. Allow the mages to be free for more than 100 years, and you'll likely find every nation ruled by mages...


Can't agree there. Up until creating the darkspawn, Tevinter did nothing that hasn't been done in real life time and again and again. No magic, often pitiful technology, and we've done worse.

#132
AshenEndymion

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Can't agree there. Up until creating the darkspawn, Tevinter did nothing that hasn't been done in real life time and again and again. No magic, often pitiful technology, and we've done worse.

 

You misunderstood... No nation in Thedas has committed the atrocities that the Tevinter Imperium did at the height of their power...  So you can't make the claim that the mundane nobles of Thedas can "cause more pain" than the Mage overlords.

 

Also, there is no record of anyone in real life controlling people using their mind, or throwing walls of fire from their hands at unruly subjects... So, Tevinter Magisters seem to have a step up on real life too...



#133
mikeymoonshine

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So I see two sides to this. 

 

To start with the privilege argument is an assumption, we don't know what situation Vivienne grew up in. It also doesn't really matter, her point is that the mages are not prepared for what they got into, which is true whether you support the rebellion or not. Anders was willing to die for his cause but can all mages say the same? 

 

Although I do not believe that the situation in the circles was acceptable and I don't think the templars were justified in punishing the entire circle for what Anders did and lets not forget Meredith's role in all of this. 


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#134
Nerevar-as

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Tell that to a fereldan, or to those who don't convert to the qun.

#135
SilentCid

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Frankly? Viv reminds me too much of my grandmother saying things weren't bad during the dictatorship if you didn't oppose it and went along with it, because some things worked. Stupid is the nicest thing I have to say about such way of thinking.

Mages are no more dangerous than any noble who gets up on the wrong foot, but those aren't caged despite causing much more pain.

BTW, freedom is worth fighting everything that stands against it. If a mob, a loyalist or whoever wants to cage me, they better be ready to face the consequences.

And why on Thedas do apostates have less trouble with blood magic and demons? Intended writing or not?

 

Mages are always constantly at risk of demonic possession when they draw their power from the fade.



#136
GipsyDangeresque

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You misunderstood... No nation in Thedas has committed the atrocities that the Tevinter Imperium did at the height of their power...  So you can't make the claim that the mundane nobles of Thedas can "cause more pain" than the Mage overlords.

 

Also, there is no record of anyone in real life controlling people using their mind, or throwing walls of fire from their hands at unruly subjects... So, Tevinter Magisters seem to have a step up on real life too...

 

Controlling people using your mind isn't that bad. It's certainly much less violent and thus less evil then electrocution, firing squads or nuclear explosions.

 

Tevinter will never be able to compare to Hitler's holocaust of the Jews.

 

Walls of fire is peanuts, that's a very tiny scale of destruction.



#137
AshenEndymion

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Tevinter will never be able to compare to Hitler's holocaust of the Jews.

 

I think the slaves sacrificed in Kirkwall so the Magisters could breach the Golden City would disagree...



#138
Medhia_Nox

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@GipsyDangeresque:  You do realize that Tevinter has had 2000 years approx. of sanctioned blood sacrifices right?  That's 2000 years of people being used as fuel for ambitious mages to have a pissing match. 

 

That's ignoring that one time they opened this portal and created Darkspawn out of their hubris... which have had five Blights which actually distort and spoil the land - and then they turn women into these Broodmother breeding machines that spew out darkspawn - and that's forgetting the hundreds of thousands of lives lost to these vile abominations of reality.  

 

Yeah - Tevinter did that.

 

It's fantasy - so sure, it can't compare to a real atrocity - but if both were real, or both fake, then yeah - Tevinter would be the clear winner.


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#139
Nerevar-as

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Mages are always constantly at risk of demonic possession when they draw their power from the fade.


Are they? It seemed more of a choice going by the games, although you could torture somebody into accepting.

Anyway, I'm not against training, I'm against stripping them of basic rights for no good reason.

#140
eyezonlyii

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@GipsyDangeresque:  You do realize that Tevinter has had 2000 years approx. of sanctioned blood sacrifices right?  That's 2000 years of people being used as fuel for ambitious mages to have a pissing match. 

 

That's ignoring that one time they opened this portal and created Darkspawn out of their hubris... which have had five Blights which actually distort and spoil the land - and then they turn women into these Broodmother breeding machines that spew out darkspawn - and that's forgetting the hundreds of thousands of lives lost to these vile abominations of reality.  

 

Yeah - Tevinter did that.

 

It's fantasy - so sure, it can't compare to a real atrocity - but if both were real, or both fake, then yeah - Tevinter would be the clear winner.

But is the Tevinter exploration of the GOlden city really hubris? I mean come on, it's human nature to explore, to question to want. They were doing no more than what Varric and Bartram were doing in DA2, only the scale, cost and subsequently the consequences were much higher. 


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#141
GipsyDangeresque

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I think the slaves sacrificed in Kirkwall so the Magisters could breach the Golden City would disagree...

 

 

@GipsyDangeresque:  You do realize that Tevinter has had 2000 years approx. of sanctioned blood sacrifices right?  That's 2000 years of people being used as fuel for ambitious mages to have a pissing match. 

 

That's ignoring that one time they opened this portal and created Darkspawn out of their hubris... which have had five Blights which actually distort and spoil the land - and then they turn women into these Broodmother breeding machines that spew out darkspawn. 

 

Yeah - Tevinter did that.

 

No, there were definitely far less than six million slaves, even over such a period of time.

 

And this was accomplished in less than a decade. Less than a decade was all it took for a mundane human being to cause the death of six million individuals.

 

Magic has nothing to do with it. Any human being with such a measure of political power could cause immense suffering the likes of which even a demon could not dream.



#142
SilentCid

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@GipsyDangeresque:  You do realize that Tevinter has had 2000 years approx. of sanctioned blood sacrifices right?  That's 2000 years of people being used as fuel for ambitious mages to have a pissing match. 

 

That's ignoring that one time they opened this portal and created Darkspawn out of their hubris... which have had five Blights which actually distort and spoil the land - and then they turn women into these Broodmother breeding machines that spew out darkspawn - and that's forgetting the hundreds of thousands of lives lost to these vile abominations of reality.  

 

Yeah - Tevinter did that.

 

It's fantasy - so sure, it can't compare to a real atrocity - but if both were real, or both fake, then yeah - Tevinter would be the clear winner.

 

Blood magic has some pros like how the Grey Wardens used it to imprison Corypheus.



#143
andar91

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Long mage post coming up.

 

Personally, I think a huge part of the topic of "The Mage Problem" is always framed as two polar extremes: it's either complete freedom for mages or total restriction of mages. I think this does the reality (or fiction, in this case ;p ) of the situation a huge disservice.

 

We need to keep in mind that we're only ever experiencing these groups within games which tell stories...and stories revolve around conflict. Y'know what I think the average mage is actually like? Probably like that guy hiding in the cupboard while Uldred ravaged the Circle in Fereldan, or that Sweeney guy who complained about his failing eyesight. Does that mean all mages are bland? No, of course not. But we're seeing the MOST bombastic personalities because the writers aren't going to design followers that are boring. People that get things done tend to have strong personalities.

 

This problem is particularly present in DA2 - that game went out of its way to portray mages as lunatics bent on world domination. Despite his issues, Anders is a good example of why this doesn't necessarily apply. He was staunchly opposed to the Circle, but he was also staunchly opposed to Blood Magic and working with demons - he understood the risks all too well. In other words, not necessarily every apostate is a maleficar and not every Circle mage is free of demonic influence. Furthermore, it doesn't take blood magic to encourage a tyrannical abuse of power or great destruction (again, see Anders). DA2 skews this because almost every mage we meet is in some way corrupted, and I think that makes it seem worse than it is. I THINK Gaider has said he regretted going that far on it (no proof, but I vaguely recall this), but they needed to make the threat of magic real. Otherwise, it's just a straightforward human rights issue with no nuance to it. I think the mage-templar conflict is complicated and lacks easy answers BY DESIGN.

 

Similarly, judging the Dalish mages solely by the actions of Merrill, Zathrian, and Velanna is ridiculous. Those are three individuals that exist as part of a huge culture that spans an entire continent in many unconnected groups. To be sure, they all made poor decisions, but it wasn't because they were mages; it was because of their situations. Zathrian acted out of sadness and anger, Velanna the same, and Merrill obsession with the past (that's my assessment, anyway) and commitment to her people. I'm not really saying that excuses their actions, and I'm not interested in labeling them as good or bad – I'm just saying that they are probably not representative of the Dalish. I really, REALLY hope we get a Dalish mage companion that's more nuanced and less nuts than we've seen so far in a future installment.

 

Personally, I think the best situation would be a largely secular Circle system that gave significant control to the mages, and the Templar Order maintained its presence as both protectors (a role that the games have de-emphasized but should not be forgotten, I think) and internal police officers for mages. I say secular because the way the Chantry preaches about magic being evil is, in my opinion, directly tied to the mistreatment and abuses of the mages. One need not be an Andrastian to learn the techniques. Anyway, the Circles would serve as centers of learning and training for nascent mages as well as resources for any mage or those in need of magical aid/resources/services. They need not be framed as a prison.

 

But I do think it should be compulsory. Why? Because magic is very dangerous and gives lots of power to very flawed individuals, as well as opening them up to the dangers of the Fade. They NEED guidance so they can control their powers safely, I think. I would leave any culture (see: Dalish) that trains its mages in its own way out of it because the point is to make sure mages aren't ticking time bombs. Dalish with magic are paired with a Keeper to train them right away.

 

But aren't all mages ticking time bombs? Well...yes, in a way, but I don't think it's fair to weight that too heavily when discussing their fundamental rights. Just because a person might abuse something is no excuse for cruelty and injustice that, ultimately, make that abuse / possession even more likely. To pull from another nerdy medium, I cite Jean Grey's quote from the first X-Men movie when asked by Senator Kelly whether or not mutants were dangerous. “I'm afraid that's an unfair question, Senator Kelly. After all, the wrong person behind the wheel of a car can be dangerous.” Kelly says, “Well, we do license people to drive.” Jean responds by saying, “Yes, but not to live.”

 

Thus it is with mages, I think.


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#144
Medhia_Nox

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@eyezonlyii: Human nature is hubris my friend.  That's why the Earth is in the state it's in... but I'm not discussing the real world here. 

 

Yes, adventuring and tomb robbing, are hubris... of course they are.  And LOOK what happened because of it.  Bartram goes insane - Meredith turns into a Super Saiyan... and Kirkwall dies (well, actually - another mage does that part).

 

@Gypsydangeresque:  12 million people died to the Nazis.. not just six million Jews.  I'm actually well versed in WWII thanks (no where near as well as some mind you). 

 

Over 2000 years.. you cannot possibly know how many slaves were slaughtered to slake the bloodlust of the Tevinter Imperium.



#145
Lanavis

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Huh, I was replying to you but somehow quoted someone else, weird.

In regards to Zathrien, it actually does have something to do with magic. While all Dalish are bigoted dicks, the fact this turd is a mage allows him the opportunity to enact such a horrifying act. Thus is only amplifies the fact that Magic needs to be supervised.

On Merril, I willingly concede you probably are right. My Primary or rather Canon run of Hawke had him disagreeing with her vehemently most time, so that might color my view of her subconsciously despite my other 2 Hawkes getting on famously with her.

Anyhow, yes, it is all opinions. So I agree there.

"In regards to Zathrien, it actually does have something to do with magic...the fact this turd is a mage allows him the opportunity to enact such a horrifying act...Magic needs to be supervised."

I do agree that magic needs to be supervised - similarly to guns and other real world weapons - but I don't believe the current Circle system is the best solution simply b/c the supervision of Templar actions has proven subpar, which has also been proven to lead to unjustified tranquility, rape, and other abuses.

If the Circle system was tweaked to allow more legal retaliation by the mages (similarly to US court systems in regards to the plaintiff/defendant/lawyer relationship) when it comes to Templars, tranquility, annulment, and other potentially oppressive legal Circle acts, I would be more in favor of a circle system.

Of course, allowing mages to stay with their family and children would have to be included as well before I support any Circle.



#146
CrazyMooNew

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Eh...I think she certainly made some good points. The thing I'm loving about...well....damn near all of the conflicts we know about (other than the rifts...which is an obvious evil...we think) is that they're not black and white...both sides make good points and both sides have done wrong.

 

A mage did try to kill one of the most powerful figures on Thedas...and a few years later it happened again, and Anders did blow a Chantry up. Mages are dangerous....even the weakest mage is capable of letting in a demon and killing who knows how many people in the process...and lets not even get into blood magic...

 

But...eh...there is also something wrong with having an army of drugged up super-guards who happen to also be religious zealots. Now while there are of course good templars...a majority of them are a llittle bonkers and on a power trip over their charges. And lobotomizing....basically children....on the off chance that one day they may become an abomination is terrible, not to mention stripping them from their family on the threat of death or worse...and then treating them like horse dung for the rest of their life...probably for the off chance that they will snap and a templar will be justified in killing them (and possibly the entire circle)...is terrifying. Lets not forget that Anders also mentioned the largest reason of circle mage deaths was suicide...

 

So meh...its all rather complicated isn't it?



#147
Lanavis

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Huh, I was replying to you but somehow quoted someone else, weird.

In regards to Zathrien, it actually does have something to do with magic. While all Dalish are bigoted dicks, the fact this turd is a mage allows him the opportunity to enact such a horrifying act. Thus is only amplifies the fact that Magic needs to be supervised.

On Merril, I willingly concede you probably are right. My Primary or rather Canon run of Hawke had him disagreeing with her vehemently most time, so that might color my view of her subconsciously despite my other 2 Hawkes getting on famously with her.

Anyhow, yes, it is all opinions. So I agree there.

"In regards to Zathrien, it actually does have something to do with magic...the fact this turd is a mage allows him the opportunity to enact such a horrifying act...Magic needs to be supervised."

 

I do agree that magic needs to be supervised - similarly to guns and other real world weapons - but I don't believe the current Circle system is the best solution simply b/c the supervision of Templar actions has proven subpar, which has also been proven to lead to unjustified tranquility, rape, and other abuses.

 

If the Circle system was tweaked to allow more legal retaliation by the mages (similarly to US court systems in regards to the plaintiff/defendant/lawyer relationship) when it comes to Templars, tranquility, annulment, and other potentially oppressive legal Circle acts, I would be more in favor of a circle system.

 

Of course, allowing mages to stay with their family and children would have to be included as well before I support any Circle.



#148
Medhia_Nox

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The problem with tweaking the Circle NOW... is the outcry.

 

Vivienne makes it clear that after Anders... the Nobility throughout Thedas and the commoners wanted something done about the mages... so, the Templars did something (the WRONG something). 

 

Now the commoners and nobles are terrified... the Templars are militarized... the Chantry has been rendered largely impotent... and the mages are violent radicals. 

 

None of them are worth anything anymore... the Inquisition needs to steamroll and rebuild.


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#149
TheCreeper

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I get the distinict impression Vivienne had an easy life in the circle.


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#150
BloodyTalon

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To be honest, most issues in dragon age aren't black or white.

Even blood magic killing someone to use their blood for magic is wrong of-course, using your own blood to fuel power to trap something  is not. So the issue isn't black and white, like any knowledge it depends on who is using it and to what end.

And the darkspawn stuff is very subjective and open to many view points, you have a church promoting that point of view to father their own goals and teachings. The first blight happen before them and there records from the first blight are a little misisng in key things, other then it was generation of fighting and dying to the dark spawn. So when a church came to power they could have kept certain truths and changed the rest to match other things.

I hope one day we get the full truth of the darkspawn  but that is doubtful it would drain one of the more fun angles of dragon age away, and that won't happen any time soon. But who knows.