1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

@Xilizhra: And I would agree with you - if your solution wasn't emotional violence.

 

Though it is largely a moot point - my complaints against this rebellion have not been: "Everything is fine." 

 

My complaints from greatest to least:

- This conflict was begun without the consideration of the minority of the mages who are now embroiled in the conflict.  A group claiming to be a minority that isn't represented - did not consider the representation of the minorities within it.  This vote wasn't for a new coffee machine in every dormitory... it was whether or not mages were going to put non-combatants in the line of fire to serve their cause. 

 

- The mages abandoned their Circles and all magical knowledge/items within to the Templars.  The last annulment (name escapes me) proves that the Templars are intelligently (for their tactics) destroying all magical knowledge and items they come across. 

 

- The mages do not have the support of the masses.  Regardless of what BSN blowhards think - rebellions don't work without a majority support.  The French and American revolutions were peasants fighting nobles... not a handful of people fighting the masses. 

 

- Ties into support.  They fled to a ruin of a fortress.  Fled - that leaves little room for supplies.  Warm blankets, food, medicine, potable water (likely the most available). 

 

I cannot, in good conscience, ever back something I think is such a colossally bad idea - and one which I believe was doomed to failure because it is such a bad idea.  Both for practical reasons - and because I cannot, no matter how much "I" want freedom, condemn others to suffering to achieve it.

 

For the rebellion to work - supporters must convince themselves that everyone in their "right mind" would support it - while those that don't are traitors, or blind, or ignorant.  It's the way causes like this work.  

 

And... here we are, tying back in to Vivienne and why I support to criticisms wholeheartedly.  Now - it will be interesting to see the rest of her opinions and whether or not we're really of a like mind - or if she's got some nuances I won't particularly like (like if she's just a spoiled noble who's disdain is only driven by her sense of superiority - which is, at this point, head canon for those who believe it to be true).

[The Elder King]

Actually The templars wanted Anders dead in DAA because they believes he killed those templars. And he was punished at least once with an one-year isolation.

[PhroXenGold]

I see how that would be a sore spot for the Crown, after all, they were beaten by mostly farmers. Though, I knew about Europen history just much as Russian history, to the point, my IQ tester was surprised I knew, who Queen Catharine the Great was, since I was the apparently first person too actually get that question correct...." I also learned the players mostly in history 101, but I find that stuff interesting.

 

Nah, it's not really a sore spot. I mean, we've got two millenia worth of history to cover so we don't waste time on a bunch of uppity colonials that only achieved independance due to French intervention

[Medhia_Nox]

@PhroXenGold:  It's the French intervention that irritates the most though I bet. 

[PhroXenGold]

@PhroXenGold:  It's the French intervention that irritates the most though I bet. 

 

Nah, not really. We Brits might not like the Frogs, but we do respect them. A millenia of fighting does that to enemies. Our nations have screwed each over often enough that it probably evens out in the end. If anything, their intervention probably annoys Americans more - the fact that they're only independent due to a bunch of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" really sticks in their craw

 

(of course, being half-American thanks to my mum, I get both sides of it )

 

Spoiler

[Medhia_Nox]

@PhroXenGold:  *wipes away man tear*  God save the Queen!  Vive la France! 

[Ryriena]

Nah, it's not really a sore spot. I mean, we've got two millenia worth of history to cover so we don't waste time on a bunch of uppity colonials that only achieved independance due to French intervention

You got me their although it was also to yall draining resources to the gorilla style tactics that helped us win. Viva my uppity colonial relatives.

[Beerfish]

It's also quite easy to trip and fall onto a knife without any formal training, but that doesn't mean we ban knives. I'm all for training young mages well, yes... and since Connor's feat doesn't seem to be repeated by any other mage child ever, it seems to work out.

 

Wait wut?  You just made a solid point for the circles.  Child mages fine when forced to go into the circle, child mage hidden from the circle promptly gets possessed and kills many people.

 

On the Harrowing... some way that won't involve death to the apprentice in question? Like sending two mages into the Fade, one who can take out the demon if need be? Even our most hardcore military organizations don't have death as the penalty for failing training.

 

The object of the harrowing is not to take out the demon if it bests the recruit it is to find out if the recruit can handle a demon encounter.  If a recruit fails the harrowing and another mage dispatch3s the demon you still have a mage recruit who has shown to be very possession prone, what do you do with this person?

 

Entirely baseless. Certainly they were concerned about other mages--not to mention that they never attacked the Chantry, the templars attacked them, both before and after leaving the Chantry.

 

Nonsense, believe it or not, as much as it is beyond belief some mages are content with the circles, support them or see them as bad but the alternative is worse.  For Anders he is not so stupid that he didn't know that his actions would cause a huge problem and not just for him or the ones that think like him but for all mages but he simply did not care, collateral damage.

[Beerfish]

Actually The templars wanted Anders dead in DAA because they believes he killed those templars. And he was punished at least once with an one-year isolation.

This is probably true that and the fact he brags about escaping numerous times.  This is also the reason I never liked Anders for second one of Awakenings.  All the demons and templars smouldering fire and he pulls the old bart simpson 'I didn't do it!'  I suspected he killed the templars instantly.  He also was a clone personality wise of Rhys.  Stupid ha ah innocent jokes that covered up his own selfishness.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

torture to death the entire bloodline of any templar who breaks the rules could work.  Not moral by any means, but you asked for a method that would work. That's aunts, uncles, parents, brothers, sisters etc etc.  Brutal, but then so is tranquillity, kidnap, and random rapes.

No it wouldn't. The deterrence theory of criminal punishment has been shown to be utter crap.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nah, not really. We Brits might not like the Frogs, but we do respect them. A millenia of fighting does that to enemies. Our nations have screwed each over often enough that it probably evens out in the end. If anything, their intervention probably annoys Americans more - the fact that they're only independent due to a bunch of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" really sticks in their craw

Those of us who would care probably haven't been educated well enough to know it's true. A lot of our schools apparently really suck.

[Ryriena]

No it wouldn't. The deterrence theory of criminal punishment has been shown to be utter crap.

The fact that Texas had the death penalty around for awhile and their still are capital punishments level crimes given by the courts of law in Texas, also proves your point on the deterrence theory being utter crap.

[LaughingWolf]

This thread should really be renamed "Petty Squabbling over mages and Templars".
Some people are getting too hostile.

[Medhia_Nox]

@laughingwold: says the guy with a sniper rifle pointed at me.  

[Mornmagor]

As i see it, no matter what happens, there will still be abuse if we isolate the Mages too much, and there will still be incidents of posession if the Mages are not trained properly.

 

If people are involved, then you need people of integrity and compassion to these neuralgic places of power, and you need Mages to understand how they won't endager everyone they love.

 

So, if you support the Circles continuing as they were under Chantry rule, then at least you need to establish a system that "polices" Templars as well. You are sending Templars to monitor Mages. Make sure that they don't abuse their position of power.

 

Knowing that someone has power over you, makes you harvest feelings of hate over time, especially when people are bound to abuse said power some times. All it takes is some bad individuals.

 

And if you support the Mages breaking free from the Chantry, you still need "schools" of proper training that will make Mages control the magic they wield, and stay vigilant.

 

Templars need to be monitored for abuse. Mages need to be monitored for berserk. So how do you find a middle ground?

 

I would say to create a new system, with or without the Chantry, doesn't matter, where Templars or the "monitors" won't have that power over Mages, but they will be a simple security squad, without those abuses.

 

Mages will not be full time in Circles, they will be trained a fixed amount of hours per day, and will have the ability to leave the Circles or schools, to return home each day. This will happen after a certain amount of time spent training, so they are in control of their power and have built a certain amount of discipline.

 

Harrowing, or something similar, should be something sought after, not avoided. A simple harrowing is nothing, it should be more often, so that Mages develop a resistance to Demon posession or attempt of it. In the end, it could be even proved that this will be the deciding factor for the end of involuntary posession, at least in my opinion.

 

Physical training. Yes, in my opinion, physical training, and not only magical, will help Mages develop more self-discipline, wield their powers with more precision, and vent their hatred, or anger or negative emotions, so in the end they are calmer. In my opinion a person who does not physically train, does not have the same peace of mind compared to someone who does. It will help even out their stress levels, and it will, in my opinion, reduce the chances they lose their vigilance or self-control by a lot.

 

Since they can become abominations by loss of control, this will help reduce the problem, or even eradicate it.

 

Templars, or monitors, need to be evaluated pshychologically as well. This will lessen the cases of abuse, which in the end will reduce the chances another rebellion will be had.

 

In the end, we need to battle how the common folk view Mages. And for this, we will have the Mages of the academy, dedicate some time per week, to help the city they belong to. Treat the wounded and the sick with healing magic in special centers, or by visiting houses of said people.

 

Repair damage to the city with evocation of force magic. Put out fires with ice magic. Something like a community service, that Mages will be able to provide to the common people.

 

Even create food or water or something equivalent for the homeless or poor.

 

This will make people see how much of a gift magic is, compared to seeing it as a curse, and Mages, from being unwanted in a society, will become something irreplaceable.

 

Also, Mages need to maintain noble titles, and have the ability to marry or have kids if they so wish.

 

There can be regulations on how magic is allowed in a city, for example you can forbid exercise of magic publicly, unless it is only for self defense or to help someone in need.

 

This is a good start i think.

 

At least, this is what i will try to accomplish in Inquisition, although i think we will be forced to support either one extreme, or the other.

[Heimdall]

Nah, not really. We Brits might not like the Frogs, but we do respect them. A millenia of fighting does that to enemies. Our nations have screwed each over often enough that it probably evens out in the end. If anything, their intervention probably annoys Americans more - the fact that they're only independent due to a bunch of "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" really sticks in their craw

(of course, being half-American thanks to my mum, I get both sides of it )

Spoiler

Well, we figure WW1 makes us even . WW2 puts us ahead

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Also, Mages need to maintain noble titles, and have the ability to marry or have kids if they so wish.

Mages are already allowed to marry. As for having children, they're allowed to do that too, they're just not allowed to raise them. (And it's not like I can't see why.)

 

As for noble titles, that worries me. The nobles have power, and the mages have power, and I'd prefer there not be any overlap where a noble has power beyond his subordinates, his ties with his superiors, and his wealth. The First Enchanter is already going to have power akin to that of a nobleman, since Meredith has already shown how toothless he can be otherwise. That seems to be quite as much political leverage as I want any one Circle to have.

[herkles]

the Mortalitasi of Nevarra have shown that one doesn't need a noble title to have immense power 

[Heimdall]

Mages are already allowed to marry. As for having children, they're allowed to do that too, they're just not allowed to raise them. (And it's not like I can't see why.)

As for noble titles, that worries me. The nobles have power, and the mages have power, and I'd prefer there not be any overlap where a noble has power beyond his subordinates, his ties with his superiors, and his wealth. The First Enchanter is already going to have power akin to that of a nobleman, since Meredith has already shown how toothless he can be otherwise. That seems to be quite as much political leverage as I want any one Circle to have.

Indeed, we've already seen what happens when magic and noble lineage mix. Apparently that's how the magisters regained power in Tevinter.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

the Mortalitasi of Nevarra have shown that one doesn't need a noble title to have immense power 

As has Vivienne. The fact remains that having a noble title and the subordinates and wealth that such a thing grants will make gaining power easier, as I'm quite certain the sorcerers named Trevelyan, Levallan, and Adaar are going to prove this November. Mages already have power, due to being able to do things for the nobles the nobles can't do for themselves. Adding titles to that will make things unbalanced.

[wcholcombe]

As has Vivienne. The fact remains that having a noble title and the subordinates and wealth that such a thing grants will make gaining power easier, as I'm quite certain the sorcerers named Trevelyan, Levallan, and Adaar are going to prove this November. Mages already have power, due to being able to do things for the nobles the nobles can't do for themselves. Adding titles to that will make things unbalanced.

As has the court advisor in Stolen Throne. The idea that mages aren't in positions of political power in Thedas is a little misguided.

 

They just don't hold actual positions of power.

 

Plus, the fact that the 1st Enchanter in Montsimmard has feasts and banquets that rivals the ones put on by the Empress of Orlais and has nobles eating out of his hand to get the enchanted little party favors he gives away, proves that mages are in a position to have plenty of power if they are intelligent enough to use it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As has the court advisor in Stolen Throne. The idea that mages aren't in positions of political power in Thedas is a little misguided.

 

They just don't hold actual positions of power.

 

Plus, the fact that the 1st Enchanter in Montsimmard has feasts and banquets that rivals the ones put on by the Empress of Orlais and has nobles eating out of his hand to get the enchanted little party favors he gives away, proves that mages are in a position to have plenty of power if they are intelligent enough to use it.

Yes. I know. I just don't want to make it any easier than it already is.

[lil yonce]

Its not fair to me that mages can't gain titles. I'm in favor of overturning that. I mean, a mage may be perfectly suited to hold power while a non-mage that actually does may suck. Plus - stripping people of their inheritance - I don't like it.

[The Baconer]

Its not fair to me that mages can't gain titles.

 

They can gain titles. Titles that are specific to mages, but titles nonetheless.

 

Edit: As far as inheritance goes, I'd be willing to let mages have whatever wealth entitled to them by birth, and perhaps they can apply to live on whatever estates they might have inherited, providing they meet certain qualifications and are of a sufficient rank within the Circle.

[sylvanaerie]

Its not fair to me that mages can't gain titles. I'm in favor of overturning that. I mean, a mage may be perfectly suited to hold power while a non-mage that actually does may suck. Plus, stripping people of their inheritance - I don't like it.

I agree to some extent with this, but one thing I'd change.  

 

I'd rather see a system where the most qualified man/woman gets the job over someone inheriting it.  Bloodline doesn't necessarily mean they will be the best person for the job.  Whether mage or mundane, if someone has the leadership skills, gets needed tasks done and the rest of the community recognizes their value to the community, why shouldn't they lead?

 

And that would ensure the best person gets the job, regardless of bloodline, and regardless of whether they can toss fireballs or not.