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[lil yonce]

Oh, good. The people in Rivain might actually approve of the level of power I'm planning on giving the First Enchanters under my system. (This is covered in the second paragraph.)

But Rivaini seers aren't First Enchanters - at least not all of them or even most of them. They're village leaders - they meet in council in the capital twice a year, form trade agreements, pledge loyalty to the crown, settle contractual disagreements between villagers, etc., and sound very much like mage nobles. So how would you handle this?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But Rivaini seers aren't First Enchanters - at least not all of them or even most of them. They're village leaders - they meet in council in the capital twice a year, form trade agreements, pledge loyalty to the crown, settle contractual disagreements between villagers, etc. and sound very much like mage nobles. So how would you handle this?

Assuming I get control of Rivain (which is not a sure thing) I think I'd handle it the same way I handle any other country. (If this leads to problems, well, good thing I can roll several characters.)

[AshenEndymion]

 

Getting back to Vivienne's speech. There was one word that really caught my attention

 

 

 

 

Intolerable

 

Vivienne said intolerable conditions. Not restrictive, not annoying, not even oppressive conditions.

 

Intolerable means just that - something that cannot be tolerated.

 

I don't know what Bioware intended, but that looks to me like a very poor choice of words. To me it makes Vivienne's whole speech sound contradictory.

 

On one hand she calls them spoilt children who rebelled without cause. On the other hand she says they had no choice but to rebel.

 

 

Iffy.  That's the single reason for the independence vote.  There isn't much denying that.  The enchanters who voted for independence believed that the conditions imposed by the Templars were intolerable.

 

But the rest of Vivienne's bit makes it sound as though she doesn't believe that said single reason is valid.  It's either that or it's not enough for an independence vote.  If it's the latter, you're right, it sounds contradictory.  But I have an inkling it's the former.  That while some Templars did some bad things, the conditions weren't as "intolerable" as those who voted would have people believe.

[wcholcombe]

But Rivaini seers aren't First Enchanters - at least not all of them or even most of them. They're village leaders - they meet in council in the capital twice a year, form trade agreements, pledge loyalty to the crown, settle contractual disagreements between villagers, etc. and sound very much like mage nobles. So how would you handle this?

I thought WoT said seers were just wise women in rural villages but that the nobility who run the country are chantey faithful?

[wcholcombe]

Iffy. That's the single reason for the independence vote. There isn't much denying that. The enchanters who voted for independence believed that the conditions imposed by the Templars were intolerable.

But the rest of Vivienne's bit makes it sound as though she doesn't believe that said single reason is valid. It's either that or it's not enough for an independence vote. If it's the latter, you're right, it sounds contradictory. But I have an inkling it's the former. That while some Templars did some bad things, the conditions weren't as "intolerable" as those who voted would have people believe.

I took it that she was saying that was the reason the mage leadership gave. Not that she thought the templars were intolerable.

[AshenEndymion]

I thought WoT said seers were just wise women in rural villages but that the nobility who run the country are chantey faithful?

 

It's debatable as to whether or not the nobles in the capital of Rivain have any authority over those villages...  Presumably everyone involved plays a game of don't ask, don't tell.

[wcholcombe]

It's debatable as to whether or not the nobles in the capital of Rivain have any authority over those villages... Presumably everyone involved plays a game of don't ask, don't tell.

But the nobles still run the country. I don't recall reading the seers having any power outside of their villages.

[lil yonce]

But the nobles still run the country. I don't recall reading the seers having any power outside of their villages.

It sounds to me that you can't run the country without the seers - maybe the capital and other Andrastian pockets but not the whole country. "The nation, with its patchwork of cultures, remains one entity through consensus and compromise."

 

EDIT: And what I posted earlier about the seers came from WoT.

[Medhia_Nox]

Just found the Codex for Rivaini - the seers are all hedge wizards according to the codex.

 

Which probably explains why they allow spirits to corrupt them for more power. 

[Colbyachi]

I know most of Thedas will despise them for their rebellion for it only furthers the hatred of magic, but if you think of it from their perspective it makes no sense not to rebel. They have nothing to lose by rebelling. They are deemed by the chantry of being "unworthy" of living amiss the common folk without any real choice on the matter. Ripped from there family, friends, and loved ones whenever their magical talents are discovered and dragged away to the nearest Circle of Magi, where they will spend the rest of their days with a Templar's gaze upon them. They will live and die in the tower, so at least rebelling gives them purpose, gives them drive that they never would have experienced if they would have stayed in their towers. I support the mages for the sole reason that Thedas is changing, and after the events unfolding currently, will be reshaped forever. I for one, will stand with the mages, for better or worse, we will bring change to Thedas.

[wcholcombe]

It sounds to me that you can't run the country without the seers - maybe the capital and other Andrastian pockets but not the whole country. "The nation, with its patchwork of cultures, remains one entity through consensus and compromise."

EDIT: And what I posted earlier about the seers came from WoT.

Are you certain. I don't remember anything about them meeting twice a year in WoT.

[lil yonce]

@wcholcombe; I'm certain. Its on page 82 under Seers & The Allsmet. This isn't the whole entry but most of it:

 

"When I set out for the captial of Rivain, I did not anticipate arriving in the middle of a provincial little festival. The streets are thick with fishermen and farmers coming in from the countryside for some gathering."

 

"Apparently the village leaders - hedge mages they dub "seers" - travel to Dairsmud twice a year to meet in council, forge trade agreements, and publicly pledge loyalty to Rivain's queen. Deals made at the Allsmet are seen as especially auspicious. Sabol warned me that sometimes hotheads will attempt to settle old feuds before these seers decree binding judgments here. But there are also feasts, lavish gift-giving ceremonies, musical contests, and other rustic nonsense."

 

My personal fav part of this entry - "Hah! Peasant oaf threatened me after I tripped into him at feast. Bit of fire cowed him! Impressed the ladies too. What enlightened attitudes. [...]"

 

- From the diary of Berkorus of Vyrantium, 9:32 Dragon.

[wcholcombe]

@wcholcombe; I'm certain. Its on page 82 under Seers & The Allsmet. This isn't the whole entry but most of it:

 

"When I set out for the captial of Rivain, I did not anticipate arriving in the middle of a provincial little festival. The streets are thick with fishermen and farmers coming in from the countryside for some gathering."

 

"Apparently the village leaders - "hedge mages they dub seers" - travel to Dairsmud twice a year to meet in council, forge trade agreements, and publicly pledge loyalty to Rivain's queen. Deals made at the Allsmet are seen as especially auspicious. Sabol warned me that sometimes hotheads will attempt to settle old feuds before these seers decree binding judgments here. But there are also feasts, lavish gift-giving ceremonies, musical contests, and other rustic nonsense."

 

My personal fav part of this entry - "Hah! Peasant oaf threatened me after I tripped into him at feast. Bit of fire cowed him! Impressed the ladies too. What enlightened attitudes. [...]"

 

- From the diary of Berkorus of Vyrantium, 9:32 Dragon.

Ok, I always took that as trade agreements between the villages, not trade agreements with other countries or such...

[lil yonce]

Ok, I always took that as trade agreements between the villages, not trade agreements with other countries or such...

It isn't clear how far their power reaches - but even if they have only power within Rivain that stands out because they're mages. And their power may not have any legal backing to protect them but if after the Dairsmud annulment over the seer training issue and the templar/chantry split they decide it should, I couldn't fault them. And certainly mages elsewhere can look at Rivain and say its unfair that they're denied any power whatsoever outside the circle and challenge a system that wouldn't let them have it.

[Beerfish]

Blood magic is already dangerous, which means that doing nothing is dangerous.

We don't have the luxury of doing nothing. Research at least offers a chance to lessen, if not eliminate the danger.

Doing 'something' other than out right banning it under penalty of death has proven to be more dangerous.  I know what you are saying and it has some merit but that approach so far via in game results has been pretty disastrous.

[Ianamus]

 

Getting back to Vivienne's speech. There was one word that really caught my attention

 

Intolerable

 

Vivienne said intolerable conditions. Not restrictive, not annoying, not even oppressive conditions.

 

Intolerable means just that - something that cannot be tolerated.

 

I don't know what Bioware intended, but that looks to me like a very poor choice of words. To me it makes Vivienne's whole speech sound contradictory.

 

On one hand she calls them spoilt children who rebelled without cause. On the other hand she says they had no choice but to rebel.

 

 

That's not taking into account the tone she used though. To me it was either sarcastic:

 

The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the "intolerable" conditions imposed by the Templars

 

or a direct quote:

 

The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the "intolerable conditions imposed by the Templars"

[LD Little Dragon]

That's not taking into account the tone she used though. To me it was either sarcastic:

 

The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the "intolerable" conditions imposed by the Templars

 

or a direct quote:

 

The leadership chose to vote on independence based on the "intolerable conditions imposed by the Templars"

I generally use subtitles without voices in the game so precise wording is important to me.

 

But I see you what you mean.  Viviennes probably meant to say the 'so-called' intolerable conditions.  Which would make a lot more sense.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I generally use subtitles without voices in the game so precise wording is important to me.

 

But I see you what you mean.  Viviennes probably meant to say the 'so-called' intolerable conditions.  Which would make a lot more sense.

You turn off the sound? Really? Because whether or not that's what happened here, I can tell you there are cases where you're going to miss some meaning if you don't listen to tones of voice.

[efd731]

You turn off the sound? Really? Because whether or not that's what happened here, I can tell you there are cases where you're going to miss some meaning if you don't listen to tones of voice.

How can you not listen to the voices? That's like.......blasphemy!! Bioware's always been awesome at the voice talent?

[Bigdoser]

I know most of Thedas will despise them for their rebellion for it only furthers the hatred of magic, but if you think of it from their perspective it makes no sense not to rebel. They have nothing to lose by rebelling. They are deemed by the chantry of being "unworthy" of living amiss the common folk without any real choice on the matter. Ripped from there family, friends, and loved ones whenever their magical talents are discovered and dragged away to the nearest Circle of Magi, where they will spend the rest of their days with a Templar's gaze upon them. They will live and die in the tower, so at least rebelling gives them purpose, gives them drive that they never would have experienced if they would have stayed in their towers. I support the mages for the sole reason that Thedas is changing, and after the events unfolding currently, will be reshaped forever. I for one, will stand with the mages, for better or worse, we will bring change to Thedas.

I somewhat feel the same way considering I think the mage vs templar issue is not going to be fully resolved in this game. 

[efd731]

I know most of Thedas will despise them for their rebellion for it only furthers the hatred of magic, but if you think of it from their perspective it makes no sense not to rebel. They have nothing to lose by rebelling. They are deemed by the chantry of being "unworthy" of living amiss the common folk without any real choice on the matter. Ripped from there family, friends, and loved ones whenever their magical talents are discovered and dragged away to the nearest Circle of Magi, where they will spend the rest of their days with a Templar's gaze upon them. They will live and die in the tower, so at least rebelling gives them purpose, gives them drive that they never would have experienced if they would have stayed in their towers. I support the mages for the sole reason that Thedas is changing, and after the events unfolding currently, will be reshaped forever. I for one, will stand with the mages, for better or worse, we will bring change to Thedas.

And this is the attitude that everyone is criticizing. It makes a metric fuc*tonne of sense not to rebel. The mages could've voted for the divine to remove lambert from his position as lord seeker and have the seekers scour the various towers for abuse on both sides. They could've voted to sequester themselves or go on strike until conditions improved. They could've voted to proactively attempt to change how thedas views them! They gain token freedom from their actual decision, because you're not really free if you're being hunted by an opposin army and are hated by the occupants of every village and city you encounter. They literally gain nothing in the long term and unless the circle mages manage to eliminate both the chantry/Templars and every single secular army in all of thedas, because unless that happens they're doomed to live and die as outlaws and damn any Mage children born to the exact same fate!!! Unless they somehow get to them first, those children will either die at the hands of angry villagers or have their bodies worn as skin suits by demons who found them easy pickings because they aren't trained. Not to mention they mages have lost all their tomes and records of magical knowledge. This half-baked ill-conceived rebellion with no goals beyond get away from those mean Templars is the equivalent of the mages shooting themselves in the foot with a goddamn howitzer.

Edit: they also aren't viewed as unworthy of living amongst regular people, they are viewed as too damn dangerous. Because you know, the ability to launch fireballs with their minds, and the risk of untrained mages resorting to blood magic and/or having demons wear them like a suit and wreaking unimaginable havoc until Templars arrive at an undetermined date. There's a damn good reason to keep them away from mundanes.

[Keroko]

I know most of Thedas will despise them for their rebellion for it only furthers the hatred of magic, but if you think of it from their perspective it makes no sense not to rebel. They have nothing to lose by rebelling.

 

They lost food and shelter by rebelling, as well as any support from the people they might have garnered in the long run had they taken the diplomatic road. And the safety from the hateful populace that the towers provided. They also lost their main method of gaining new recruits and many, many books to let them learn, teach and grow.

[Blue Item]

On the other hand, mages have been abused by authority most of their lives. Do you really think they're suddenly going to allow some relatively unkown faction that appears to be on the chantry/templar's side in the mediate their problems? And even if the mages somehow get a favorable outcome, what guarantees they keep it that way?

 

Keep in mind that mages were ruled over primarily by the Templars, not the Chantry. Given the attitude of their leader, and that an apparently large faction of them looked at Meredith's incident with red lyrium and thought "Wow, a magical substance that drives you homicidally insane? Yep, time to start using that and turning into our own variant on abominations," is it any wonder they saw open rebellion as a better choice then any diplomatic option? It really doesn't help that Templars are apparently fully within their rights to murder every mage in the Circle if they feel like it, given they've tried it in both DA:O and DA2, whereas mages have no such protection against radical Templars.

 

Edit: I'm sure not all Templars are overzealous and morally reprehnsible, just like all mages aren't bargaining with demons and cackling evilly at every opportunity. And even though we don't actually see it in any of the games, presumably not every Circle is a horrible place to live. Most likely there are instigators on both sides who would like to see an open conflict, and arrange events so that the mages have no choice to rebel. It's not really the fault of any one group, but really just a questionable at best system being abused, with a lack of oversight exacerbating the problem.

[Giggles_Manically]

I kinda feel like the mages are just like people who have escaped from Prison, or that is how the mundanes of the world will see it.

Yes you got away from your jailers and your cell....but society still sees you as an escaped convict.

 

One who is setting things on fire, cavorting with demons, and allied with blood mages if not one yourself.

There are many, many, many people for even 1 mage, not all of them who are very powerful. Plus new templars are MADE not born, it takes nearly 20 years to make a good mage. Whereas the templars can just recruit any schlub and give them lyrium and training in a few months.

Their position is not a secure one, and I fear that in rebelling they have just laid the ground work for something far worse to happen.Granted what they had sucked but as the old adage goes "It can always be worse".

 

Guess playing DAI will tell in the end.

[Xilizhra]

I kinda feel like the mages are just like people who have escaped from Prison, or that is how the mundanes of the world will see it.

Yes you got away from your jailers and your cell....but society still sees you as an escaped convict.

 

One who is setting things on fire, cavorting with demons, and allied with blood mages if not one yourself.

There are many, many, many people for even 1 mage, not all of them who are very powerful. Plus new templars are MADE not born, it takes nearly 20 years to make a good mage. Whereas the templars can just recruit any schlub and give them lyrium and training in a few months.

Their position is not a secure one, and I fear that in rebelling they have just laid the ground work for something far worse to happen.Granted what they had sucked but as the old adage goes "It can always be worse".

 

Guess playing DAI will tell in the end.

The Chantry controls the lyrium trade, not the templars. I'd say templar recruitment is capped right now.

 

Playing DAI will tell indeed, but I seriously doubt that the templars would be able to have that much more of a complete victory than the mages.