1751 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

The Chantry controls the lyrium trade, not the templars. I'd say templar recruitment is capped right now.
 
Playing DAI will tell indeed, but I seriously doubt that the templars would be able to have that much more of a complete victory than the mages.

I do wonder about The outcomes of The war.

[Giggles_Manically]

The Chantry controls the lyrium trade, not the templars. I'd say templar recruitment is capped right now.

 

Playing DAI will tell indeed, but I seriously doubt that the templars would be able to have that much more of a complete victory than the mages.

Lyrium Smuggling is still a thing however as we saw in DAO and DA2.

Added to that the Red Templars despite being rogue twice over, got their hands on Red Lyrium.

 

They may have lost their historic supply chains, and indeed the easy way to get it, but they are not lacking for lyrium in DAI it seems.

Plus with the Chantry toppled the Dwarves will probably sell them lyrium anyway cause hey supply and demand and all that.

[earl of the north]

I expect we will see a return to a circle system, with the question of who has the ascendancy mages or templars up to us....maybe with the Inquistion providing oversite over the two groups (since we will I assume be recruiting mages and templars into the Inquistion's ranks).

 

The Chantry controlled the Lyrim trade, they are probably not buying any now since they don't need any and the templars are not exactly available to police the Lyrim trade for the Chantry. Its likely the mages and templars have aquired their own sources of Lyrim.  The Dwarfs are probably doing a roaring trade selling to both sides.

[Colbyachi]

And this is the attitude that everyone is criticizing. It makes a metric fuc*tonne of sense not to rebel. The mages could've voted for the divine to remove lambert from his position as lord seeker and have the seekers scour the various towers for abuse on both sides. They could've voted to sequester themselves or go on strike until conditions improved. They could've voted to proactively attempt to change how thedas views them! They gain token freedom from their actual decision, because you're not really free if you're being hunted by an opposin army and are hated by the occupants of every village and city you encounter. They literally gain nothing in the long term and unless the circle mages manage to eliminate both the chantry/Templars and every single secular army in all of thedas, because unless that happens they're doomed to live and die as outlaws and damn any Mage children born to the exact same fate!!! Unless they somehow get to them first, those children will either die at the hands of angry villagers or have their bodies worn as skin suits by demons who found them easy pickings because they aren't trained. Not to mention they mages have lost all their tomes and records of magical knowledge. This half-baked ill-conceived rebellion with no goals beyond get away from those mean Templars is the equivalent of the mages shooting themselves in the foot with a goddamn howitzer.

Edit: they also aren't viewed as unworthy of living amongst regular people, they are viewed as too damn dangerous. Because you know, the ability to launch fireballs with their minds, and the risk of untrained mages resorting to blood magic and/or having demons wear them like a suit and wreaking unimaginable havoc until Templars arrive at an undetermined date. There's a damn good reason to keep them away from mundanes.

You make some good points, but they have tried to do things peacefully to no avil. I get that they are more a danger than the average person but that shouldn't stop them from beung able to live a normal life. That's like saying anyone who owns a firearm should be kept seprate from the rest of the citzans because they may go on a killing spree. Just because you have to ability to kill in a fast manner doesn't mean you are actually going to do it. Sure some will try to abuse their power, but that's just like anything in life. monarchs in thedas have had more innocent people killed than mages EVER will be able to kill.

[Colbyachi]

They lost food and shelter by rebelling, as well as any support from the people they might have garnered in the long run had they taken the diplomatic road. And the safety from the hateful populace that the towers provided. They also lost their main method of gaining new recruits and many, many books to let them learn, teach and grow.

Not trying to pick on you, but holy ***! You guys keep trying to bring up the " diplomatic route" like that was ever a option. They gained nothing being diplomatic, and they are tired of it. I agree on the safety in the tower thing, but it's to late for that now. They can teach from their experiences as mages. I'm sure many of the teachers, enchanters, and scholars in the towers will be running around so they are going to make sure those around them are properly trained.

[earl of the north]

Not trying to pick on you, but holy ***! You guys keep trying to bring up the " diplomatic route" like that was ever a option. They gained nothing being diplomatic, and they are tired of it. I agree on the safety in the tower thing, but it's to late for that now. They can teach from their experiences as mages. I'm sure many of the teachers, enchanters, and scholars in the towers will be running around so they are going to make sure those around them are properly trained.

 

They had the ear of the Divine (the head of the Chantry), Celene (the Orlaisian Empress) and possibly Alistair (the King of Fereldan if you took that route) so the diplomatic route was available, they threw the chance for peaceful change away to launch an unprepared bid for independence knowing what the obvious templar reaction would be.

 

I don't see much ability for them to train, since they will be busy learning how to hunt, to gather (knowing whats safe to eat), to farm or they will be busy acting as bandits to steal food from the common folk, also the templars have spent time destroying the mage's tomes of knowledge (in the abandoned circle towers) so basically they can only teach what the know now and remember (expect for any books they brought instead of clothing and food).....lets understand that the mages have got to learn a huge amount of basic knowledge of how to live in the outside world in rural areas to provide the basics for themselves since they have zero support from the local population.

 

I expect that there will be a core of trained mages, but the low power mages are going to find themselves living and working as serfs for their superior brothers and sisters just to provide the necessary food for the mages to support themselves.

[earl of the north]

You make some good points, but they have tried to do things peacefully to no avil. I get that they are more a danger than the average person but that shouldn't stop them from beung able to live a normal life. That's like saying anyone who owns a firearm should be kept seprate from the rest of the citzans because they may go on a killing spree. Just because you have to ability to kill in a fast manner doesn't mean you are actually going to do it. Sure some will try to abuse their power, but that's just like anything in life. monarchs in thedas have had more innocent people killed than mages EVER will be able to kill.

 

Well given Thedas's history the Tevinter Imperium is the big bad mass murdering killer mage elephant in the room and probably holds the record for killing (directly and indirectly through blights) the most innocent people (humans, elves and dwarfs).

 

They gun owner comparison just doesn't work unless the gun has the ability to possess the owner and send them on a killing spree, mages are dangerous, thats written into the DA lore repeatedly time and again and has been confirmed by the writers....its supposed to be gray area, holding people for what the might do is wrong, but all mages (no matter how well trained) are a clear and present danger to themselves and the rest of the population.

 

Training and confining mages reduces the risks, that is why mages set up the circle system (prior to which they were confined to the chantries), it became corrupted over a thousand years, but what system wouldn't.

[Vandicus]

The Chantry controls the lyrium trade, not the templars. I'd say templar recruitment is capped right now.

 

Playing DAI will tell indeed, but I seriously doubt that the templars would be able to have that much more of a complete victory than the mages.

While making them real templars isn't necessarily feasible, they can simply be called templars without having actual templar abilities. The abundance of mundanes which can be taught to hit the enemy with the pointy end of their spears vs potential new mages is favorable towards the templars chances in the war.

 

However it also warrants mentioning that if the templars ever tried to draft a city/village/etc. they'd enrage the noble to whom that belongs. The loss of their source of funding as well as social acceptability for recruitment makes them reliant on acquiring support from anti-mage nobles and fiefs. Unless the templars go out of their way to make people their enemies, nobles and peasants alike would likely be willing to provide them aid to clear out what they view as the mage pestilence in their lands. I could easily see the templar leadership jeopardizing this kind of relationship by attempting to draft people and gather supplies from the populace without permission.

 

Outside of nobles with blood ties to mages and whom might be willing to lend support for that reason, the mages don't seem to have a whole lot of options to fill the missing critical elements in their ranks.

[viperidae]

The firearm comparison is kind of overdone, i'm all for mages but it's more like having a literal FIRE-ARM that might disobey you than owning a gun

[Colbyachi]

They had the ear of the Divine (the head of the Chantry), Celene (the Orlaisian Empress) and possibly Alistair (the King of Fereldan if you took that route) so the diplomatic route was available, they threw the chance for peaceful change away to launch an unprepared bid for independence knowing what the obvious templar reaction would be.

 

I don't see much ability for them to train, since they will be busy learning how to hunt, to gather (knowing whats safe to eat), to farm or they will be busy acting as bandits to steal food from the common folk, also the templars have spent time destroying the mage's tomes of knowledge (in the abandoned circle towers) so basically they can only teach what the know now and remember (expect for any books they brought instead of clothing and food).....lets understand that the mages have got to learn a huge amount of basic knowledge of how to live in the outside world in rural areas to provide the basics for themselves since they have zero support from the local population.

 

I expect that there will be a core of trained mages, but the low power mages are going to find themselves living and working as serfs for their superior brothers and sisters just to provide the necessary food for the mages to support themselves.

I get what you're saying, and  we can only speculate how the will be handled in game. the only counter argument I can think of atm is to just wait till the game is released to see how they handle the situation. 

[efd731]

You make some good points, but they have tried to do things peacefully to no avil. I get that they are more a danger than the average person but that shouldn't stop them from beung able to live a normal life. That's like saying anyone who owns a firearm should be kept seprate from the rest of the citzans because they may go on a killing spree. Just because you have to ability to kill in a fast manner doesn't mean you are actually going to do it. Sure some will try to abuse their power, but that's just like anything in life. monarchs in thedas have had more innocent people killed than mages EVER will be able to kill.

. The person with a gun analogy doesn't work at all. Not only can you unload a gun and set it down(you can't stop a Mage from accessing the fade or being a Mage) and guns aren't constantly attempting to wrest control of your own body and mind from you to commit mass murder. Also, we'll have to disagree about the monarchs kill more people thing, as the dark spawn were caused by mages and they're singlehandedly responsible for the eradication of entire nations. Also the breach and whole 'raining demons' thing is a mages/group of mages fault.

But yeah, it's not like owning a gun, it like having a gun grafted to your arm, that wants to be fired, and is constantly whispering to you to shoot everyone. This is thedas, you have to shoot the gun, but imagine that the gun can make itself much more effective in exchange for letting it control you for a bit. In a life and death scenario you might take that deal, to save yourself, to save others. But then the gun is in control forever, and all it wants is to kill everyone, and you have to watch from inside your head. That's the situation of every single Mage in thedas. That's why circles are necessary

Edit: also, they 'gained nothing from being diplomatic' because they weren't being diplomatic! Hiding in their towers and complaining about Templar abuse that no one else could see, desperately resorting to blood magic because.......reasons? It's only applications were offensive magic and mind control. If they had actually tried diplomacy instead of whining to one another, they could've changed everything about their situation. As it is, they are 50% responsible for the situation they find themselves in.

[efd731]

also holy jesus.......30000 people have seen a topic i picked up at random. this is a strange sensation.

[viperidae]

. The person with a gun analogy doesn't work at all. Not only can you unload a gun and set it down(you can't stop a Mage from accessing the fade or being a Mage) and guns aren't constantly attempting to wrest control of your own body and mind from you to commit mass murder. Also, we'll have to disagree about the monarchs kill more people thing, as the dark spawn were caused by mages and they're singlehandedly responsible for the eradication of entire nations. Also the breach and whole 'raining demons' thing is a mages/group of mages fault.

But yeah, it's not like owning a gun, it like having a gun grafted to your arm, that wants to be fired, and is constantly whispering to you to shoot everyone. This is thedas, you have to shoot the gun, but imagine that the gun can make itself much more effective in exchange for letting it control you for a bit. In a life and death scenario you might take that deal, to save yourself, to save others. But then the gun is in control forever, and all it wants is to kill everyone, and you have to watch from inside your head. That's the situation of every single Mage in thedas. That's why circles are necessary

Edit: also, they 'gained nothing from being diplomatic' because they weren't being diplomatic! Hiding in their towers and complaining about Templar abuse that no one else could see, desperately resorting to blood magic because.......reasons? It's only applications were offensive magic and mind control. If they had actually tried diplomacy instead of whining to one another, they could've changed everything about their situation. As it is, they are 50% responsible for the situation they find themselves in.

 

i'd say being peaceful pseudo-slaves who complain now and then (about things like being violated or lobotimized or not allowed to see their family) is being pretty damn diplomatic, considering the position they find themselves in. The whole point of the situation is that there IS no solution. The mages giving up and letting themselves be oppressed isn't a solution, and the Templars giving up and letting all the mages roam free isn't either. It's a vicious cycle and honestly, the fact that this is the first time (that we know of) that there was a "mage rebellion" suprises me. The whole situation is just a clusterfuck which is exactly why it's just so damn interesting to talk about, because none of us probably know where the plot is actually headed, what could actually "solve" this mage-templar conflict.

[StrangeStrategy]

also holy jesus.......30000 people have seen a topic i picked up at random. this is a strange sensation.

 

Well, 30,000 Views doesn't mean 30,000 people, a lot of people are probably just invested in the conversation and check back for new replies.

Still though, it is a big number. I wouldn't have expected more than 2000

[AshenEndymion]

i'd say being peaceful pseudo-slaves who complain now and then (about things like being violated or lobotimized or not allowed to see their family) is being pretty damn diplomatic, considering the position they find themselves in. The whole point of the situation is that there IS no solution. The mages giving up and letting themselves be oppressed isn't a solution, and the Templars giving up and letting all the mages roam free isn't either. It's a vicious cycle and honestly, the fact that this is the first time (that we know of) that there was a "mage rebellion" suprises me. The whole situation is just a clusterfuck which is exactly why it's just so damn interesting to talk about, because none of us probably know where the plot is actually headed, what could actually "solve" this mage-templar conflict.

 

 

Well... there is one solution...

 

[ziyon conqueror]

I say that Vivienne sees only one side of the Kirkwall Rebellion. She fails to see that Meredith's prejudice against mages and usurption of power is wrong. I think she should listen to the whole of Varric's story. And besides, it was the Chantry that made the Andrastian world the way it is, isolating mages from others, promoting fear of magic and the Fade, rather than encourage courage.

[efd731]

I say that Vivienne sees only one side of the Kirkwall Rebellion. She fails to see that Meredith's prejudice against mages and usurption of power is wrong. I think she should listen to the whole of Varric's story. And besides, it was the Chantry that made the Andrastian world the way it is, isolating mages from others, promoting fear of magic and the Fade, rather than encourage courage.

that's incorrect. She has stated nothing of the sort. The Only dialogue we have and only basis for conversation is that the Mage leadership ignored the roughly 1/3 of mages who wanted to not rebel, and had no plans for the rebellion beyond "circles=bad let's leave" and were painfully shortsighted. All of which is indisputably true. Her actual dialogue(not just people's impressions) is on the first page taken verbatim from the twitch stream.

[frankf43]

Everyone forgets that the mages are in a seriously strong position. They are the only ones who can help the Inquisitor close the rift. If the Chantry and local populace march on the mages and destroy them the world is doomed. It will need time for tempers to cool down but then Thedas will have to go to the mages cap in hand asking for their help. Then they can demand whatever they want. 

[earl of the north]

I say that Vivienne sees only one side of the Kirkwall Rebellion. She fails to see that Meredith's prejudice against mages and usurption of power is wrong. I think she should listen to the whole of Varric's story. And besides, it was the Chantry that made the Andrastian world the way it is, isolating mages from others, promoting fear of magic and the Fade, rather than encourage courage.

 

No it was the history of Thedas that made the Andrastian world the way it is, if you want to know where the fear of magic comes from look no further than the 2,000 years of oppression, slavery and mass murder that was the old Tevinter Imperium, followed by the blights caused by Tevinter.  With that history the Chantry could preach nothing but love for all mages and you would still have a population that has a historical reason to hate and fear mages.

 

Frankly the history of Thedas, combined with local history of mage chidren causing death and destruction when they lose control of their powers and it would be a miracle if magic and mages weren't hated by the common folk.

[The Baconer]

Everyone forgets that the mages are in a seriously strong position. They are the only ones who can help the Inquisitor close the rift. If the Chantry and local populace march on the mages and destroy them the world is doomed. It will need time for tempers to cool down but then Thedas will have to go to the mages cap in hand asking for their help. Then they can demand whatever they want. 

 

Incorrect.

[frankf43]

Incorrect.

Care to expand on that answer. We saw in the twitch stream that everybody but Cullen was of the opinion that only the mages could help close the rift.  

[earl of the north]

Everyone forgets that the mages are in a seriously strong position. They are the only ones who can help the Inquisitor close the rift. If the Chantry and local populace march on the mages and destroy them the world is doomed. It will need time for tempers to cool down but then Thedas will have to go to the mages cap in hand asking for their help. Then they can demand whatever they want. 

 

Do any mages have the ability to close the rifts, as far as I've seen only the Inquisitor has that ability, if not then the mages are in a terribly weak position, with zero support from the local population, no ability to feed themselves and facing a hostile nobility as well as the templar factions.

[frankf43]

Do any mages have the ability to close the rifts, as far as I've seen only the Inquisitor has that ability, if not then the mages are in a terribly weak position, with zero support from the local population, no ability to feed themselves and facing a hostile nobility as well as the templar factions.

 

The Inquisitor can't close the main rift on his own. The war council came to the conclusion that the only way the can gain the enough power to close the main rift is with the help of the Mages Circle boosting his ability.

[The Baconer]

Care to expand on that answer. We saw in the twitch stream that everybody but Cullen was of the opinion that only the mages could help close the rift.  

 

Critical part here. We know that the only individual who can close the Fade tears is the Inquisitor. The council's assumption that the mages would be needed to juice up the mark is conjecture.

[viperidae]

Well... there is one solution...

 

 

Well sure, if you condone genocide that is. For those of us who would like to inhabit this world together, it's a rough deal. Best case i could see is isolation really and then we're right back to the Circle.