1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Keroko]

Again, this is the moment of possession. The only one we see getting possessed on your list is Olivia... who, as a matter of fact, does catch fire.

 

Ah, I see. Big problem with that reasoning though: Did Gregoir watch your every step as you carved your way to the top of the tower? Because otherwise, we're back to "you might be saying you're not possessed... but any demon would do the same."

 

Heck, even we lost visual track of our party when we got lured into the Fade by the Sloth demon. We have no more credit to having seen everything than Gregoir or Irving does. And then there is blood magic, which is not accompanied by flashy effects and can be done in the middle of a crowd without anyone noticing.

 

Point remains, we were a major security risk. Gregoir took a lot of risk by simply believing in Irving and agreeing the tower was secure.

[Xilizhra]

Ah, I see. Big problem with that reasoning though: Did Gregoir watch your every step as you carved your way to the top of the tower? Because otherwise, we're back to "you might be saying you're not possessed... but any demon would do the same."

 

Heck, even we lost visual track of our party when we got lured into the Fade by the Sloth demon. We have no more credit to having seen everything than Gregoir or Irving does. And then there is blood magic, which is not accompanied by flashy effects and can be done in the middle of a crowd without anyone noticing.

 

Point remains, we were a major security risk. Gregoir took a lot of risk by simply believing in Irving and agreeing the tower was secure.

Mildly so. This doesn't mean that Greagoir is a good person, or that I'll refrain from killing him more than I would anyone else if a fight breaks out.

[Keroko]

Mildly so. This doesn't mean that Greagoir is a good person, or that I'll refrain from killing him more than I would anyone else if a fight breaks out.

 

I wouldn't call blood mage thralls/abominations in high places a 'mild' risk to let go... but yes, I'd kill him if a fight breaks out. But then, I tend to kill anyone who takes a swipe for my head. Templar or mage.

 

If you're swinging a sword, you better be ready for the risk of catching one and all that.

[herkles]

Mildly so. This doesn't mean that Greagoir is a good person, or that I'll refrain from killing him more than I would anyone else if a fight breaks out.

 

*the day that Graegoir became a templar*

"I Graegoir pledge my life to the templar order. To do evil, to be an abuser to mages, to kick puppies and to steal candy from little kids. Hail Evil, hail the templars!

*chours of chanting of "hail evil, hail the templars*

 

^the above is a joke btw. 

[Xilizhra]

I wouldn't call blood mage thralls/abominations in high places a 'mild' risk to let go... but yes, I'd kill him if a fight breaks out. But then, I tend to kill anyone who takes a swipe for my head. Templar or mage.

 

If you're swinging a sword, you better be ready for the risk of catching one and all that.

Hell, I let the actual blood mage go... both of them at different times. Fun times there.

 

 

*the day that Graegoir became a templar*

"I Graegoir pledge my life to the templar order. To do evil, to be an abuser to mages, to kick puppies and to steal candy from little kids. Hail Evil, hail the templars!

*chours of chanting of "hail evil, hail the templars*

 

^the above is a joke btw. 

Well, they do screen out moral people when they can. See the codex.

[berrieh]

A really early one, wherein he physically abuses at least one pregnant woman.

 

 

Okay, just Wiki-ed it. I obviously can't read it today, but it says he "loses patience and slaps her" while interrogating her and then leaves. While not a good move, obviously, simply referring to it as "abuses a pregnant mage" is deceptive, I think. I'd have to read it to be sure, of course. I mean, I can remember times my mother lost patience with me and slapped me as a kid (once or twice) and I never considered that ABUSE. Certainly not good - though I actually would goad her because it would mean I'd get no other punishment since she'd feel badly - but not abuse. 

 

Well, it's certainly not Irving or any of the others in Uldred's room, as Uldred kept trying to forcibly possess them.

 

How would Gregoir know this? From where he is, waiting for Annulment? 

 

Why would they be exiting the Circle tower, then? And where would they have come from to begin with? It isn't as though Ferelden has multiple Circles. Also, your claim that corpses must match representation of living people strikes me as extremely arbitrary.

 

In short, actual proof that the Annulment would have killed more people is utterly nil and contradicted by the one cutscene that covers it.

 

Why does my claim that corpses matter arbitrary? You are using one cutscene, many months later, as proof that those people were all in the Circle to begin with, when we know that Enchanters leave on Circle business (and that anyone fighting must be an Enchanter, not an Apprentice) all the time. We see only a few mages alive during or after (if you return), not 100. We see more bodies than mages or templars alive inside. Why is the ratio irrelevant? Because it doesn't fit the narrative you wish to create? 

 

I agree that proof the annulment would have killed more people is nil. It seems fairly clear most of the Tower was lost/dead already. I don't think you said what you meant to say though. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well, they do screen out moral people when they can. See the codex.

That's not quite what the Codex says. What it says is that morality is secondary to faith, with the reason being that the Templar needs to be willing to follow orders unhesitatingly. That doesn't mean that being good people isn't advisable, just that it is of secondary importance next to willingness to do whatever their superiors perceive to be needed. (I think I can see how the Templars put up with Meredith for so long.)

 

 

You are using one cutscene, many months later, as proof that those people were all in the Circle to begin with, when we know that Enchanters leave on Circle business (and that anyone fighting must be an Enchanter, not an Apprentice) all the time.

We see an Enchanter escorting several apprentices to Redcliffe on the road in a random encounter. They stop to practice on some darkspawn they meet. The argument you're making went over my head, so I'm not sure if this invalidates it, but I felt like pointing it out.

[Xilizhra]

Okay, just Wiki-ed it. I obviously can't read it today, but it says he "loses patience and slaps her" while interrogating her and then leaves. While not a good move, obviously, simply referring to it as "abuses a pregnant mage" is deceptive, I think. I'd have to read it to be sure, of course. I mean, I can remember times my mother lost patience with me and slapped me as a kid (once or twice) and I never considered that ABUSE. Certainly not good - though I actually would goad her because it would mean I'd get no other punishment since she'd feel badly - but not abuse.

It's abuse, just something that some consider tolerable. I do not.

 

 

Why does my claim that corpses matter arbitrary? You are using one cutscene, many months later, as proof that those people were all in the Circle to begin with, when we know that Enchanters leave on Circle business (and that anyone fighting must be an Enchanter, not an Apprentice) all the time. We see only a few mages alive during or after (if you return), not 100. We see more bodies than mages or templars alive inside. Why is the ratio irrelevant? Because it doesn't fit the narrative you wish to create? 

 

I agree that proof the annulment would have killed more people is nil. It seems fairly clear most of the Tower was lost/dead already. I don't think you said what you meant to say though. 

Because the bodies are doodads to provide set dressing, whereas living mages would involve more dialogue options because it'd be logical to ask them what the situation is if they could be seen. Adding bodies is less work.

Also, forgive me, I said that last line backward. I should have said that proof that the Annulment would have killed fewer people is completely nil.

[berrieh]

 

 

Because the bodies are doodads to provide set dressing, whereas living mages would involve more dialogue options because it'd be logical to ask them what the situation is if they could be seen. Adding bodies is less work.

 

 

Actually, from a programming standpoint, the cutscene is far less work than set dressing an entire level. 

[Xilizhra]

 

 

 

 

Actually, from a programming standpoint, the cutscene is far less work than set dressing an entire level. 

 

Then you have to write dialogue and such.

[Keroko]

Amusingly, what the cutscene proves is just how many mages were away from the tower (in other words: Not locked up) when Uldred made his move.

 

That's quite a few mages being granted a freedom many claim mages don't have.

[berrieh]

Then you have to write dialogue and such.

 

There's no dialogue in that cutscene. It is part of a montage. 

[Tevinter Soldier]

have any of you considered the reason why more mages weren't shown was due to restrictions with the game engine?

 

just like you never see the army at ostagar outside a cutscene.

the same reason denrium is populated by what 20 people? 

that the tower has room for what 20 mages?

the fact that your back up sends you an arbitrary squad of people, we really went to all this trouble to get 30 men?

 

seriously debating this? 

 

what you see in cut scenes is the remains of the circle. the rite kills them all.

[Xilizhra]

Amusingly, what the cutscene proves is just how many mages were away from the tower (in other words: Not locked up) when Uldred made his move.

 

That's quite a few mages being granted a freedom many claim mages don't have.

I'm almost positive that it doesn't, because it would blatantly contradict all other lore we've received about the Circle. I would say nearly all of them would be inside the Circle, especially since they're all exiting it.

 

 

There's no dialogue in that cutscene. It is part of a montage. 

I was referring to adding more living mages to Broken Circle.

[Keroko]

I'm almost positive that it doesn't, because it would blatantly contradict all other lore we've received about the Circle. I would say nearly all of them would be inside the Circle, especially since they're all exiting it.

 

Almost all other lore? You mean the lore where Wynne gets to come with us without problems? The lore where Finn then does pretty much the same in Awakenings? The lore where we encounter mages on the road post-Broken Circle? The lore where the mages hapilly go on to Redcliffe ahead of us to exorcise Connor? The lore where we find Innes doing herb gathering a long ways away from the Circle? That lore?

 

And of course the mages exited the Circle. It's been weeks or months between Broken Circle and the Battle of Denerim (depending on the order in which you finished your quests) the mages on the road returned to help rebuild the Circle.

[Xilizhra]

Almost all other lore? You mean the lore where Wynne gets to come with us without problems? The lore where Finn then does pretty much the same in Awakenings? The lore where we encounter mages on the road post-Broken Circle? The lore where the mages hapilly go on to Redcliffe ahead of us to exorcise Connor? The lore where we find Innes doing herb gathering a long ways away from the Circle? That lore?

 

And of course the mages exited the Circle. It's been weeks or months between Broken Circle and the Battle of Denerim (depending on the order in which you finished your quests) the mages on the road returned to help rebuild the Circle.

Yes, that lore. Given that all are enchanters/senior enchanters on specific missions; I find it gruesomely unlikely that so many mages were sent out that far, which would practically obviate the point of the Circle to begin with and make Meredith's actions be even more blatantly terrible and reflecting poorly on the Chantry for not reining in.

[Tevinter Soldier]

and let me guess the 100's of mages referenced as living in the gallows that we we don't see in the kirkwall circle were out picking herbs when Meredith sacks the it in DA2?

 

the fereldon circle was unfit to house anyone for months and the grey warden agreements granted them licence to leave in exchange for help. 

you know why none of these mages are seen if you do the annulment? 

 

their all dead

[frankf43]

Uhh, he had every choice to just go "No, I can't take the risk that one of you isn't a blood mage's thrall or unknowing demon host."

Remember Legacy? How Corypheus managed to escape death and his prison by body-jumping into another Warden? And nobody being any wiser? Who's to say one of the demons didn't leave a similar booby trap in one of the 'rescued' mages? Or hell, one of our party?

Things went well in the end, but Cullen had a very good point. Gregoir just accepting Irving's word that everything was okay was a very risky move to take.

 

He's too cowardly to stick his head through the door and look for survivors. He's not going to risk taking on the person who wiped the demons and abominations. The man's alright with overwhelming odds behind him but not when there is a chance of him losing.

[The Elder King]

He's too cowardly to stick his head through the door and look for survivors. He's not going to risk taking on the person who wiped the demons and abominations. The man's alright with overwhelming odds behind him but not when there is a chance of him losing.

Maybe you should remember that lorewise abominations aren't as easy to kill as in Gameplay. ONE abomination is supposed to be Nightmare to kill. The tower was full of abominations and demons.
Granted, The Warden accomplished this, and this is why he's considered a hero and a legend. The fears he accomplished aren't normal. The 99% of people in Thedas can't do What he did. That's why it's reasonable to fight abominations with an army.
Also, if The reason why he Agreed to spare The mages was because he didn't want to face The Warden, why he proceed with The annulment if Irving is dead? THIS is The reason why he Agreed in stopping The annulment.

[berrieh]

have any of you considered the reason why more mages weren't shown was due to restrictions with the game engine?

 

just like you never see the army at ostagar outside a cutscene.

the same reason denrium is populated by what 20 people? 

that the tower has room for what 20 mages?

the fact that your back up sends you an arbitrary squad of people, we really went to all this trouble to get 30 men?

 

what you see in cut scenes is the remains of the circle. the rite kills them all.

 

You're absolutely right about the engine.

 

I have no problem accepting that the cutscene is the remains of the Circle. I agree it is an engine limitation in-game. HOWEVER, I think it is much more likely that the Tower population was something like 1500 or 1000 and that the majority of them died by the hands of demons since we see a very high death/possessed/body to living mage ratio in the mission itself and since the impression Irving gives us is that the Circle has been weakened greatly and since every narrative element in the game alludes to much being lost due to the blood mages. 

 

 

I'm almost positive that it doesn't, because it would blatantly contradict all other lore we've received about the Circle. I would say nearly all of them would be inside the Circle, especially since they're all exiting it.

 

 

Yes, after the tragedy, I imagine they were mostly called back unless on truly urgent business or unreachable. Remember the game is a year, so likely months pass between Broken Circle and the final battle.

 

Yes, that lore. Given that all are enchanters/senior enchanters on specific missions; I find it gruesomely unlikely that so many mages were sent out that far, which would practically obviate the point of the Circle to begin with and make Meredith's actions be even more blatantly terrible and reflecting poorly on the Chantry for not reining in.

 

But the Ferelden Circle is not the Kirkwall Circle (nor the Circles after what happened at Kirkwall, where restrictions are levied). During the time of DA:O, Enchanters whose phylacteries were on file at the Circle seemed to be able to leave for Circle business at regular intervals. 

[Xilizhra]

You're absolutely right about the engine.

 

I have no problem accepting that the cutscene is the remains of the Circle. I agree it is an engine limitation in-game. HOWEVER, I think it is much more likely that the Tower population was something like 1500 or 1000 and that the majority of them died by the hands of demons since we see a very high death/possessed/body to living mage ratio in the mission itself and since the impression Irving gives us is that the Circle has been weakened greatly and since every narrative element in the game alludes to much being lost due to the blood mages. 

It was damaged, obviously, but recovery is far more possible far more quickly than it would have been if the templars had murdered everyone.

And if so many mages were out of the tower at the time, they could have joined up with the army anyway after the Annulment.

 

 

But the Ferelden Circle is not the Kirkwall Circle (nor the Circles after what happened at Kirkwall, where restrictions are levied). During the time of DA:O, Enchanters whose phylacteries were on file at the Circle seemed to be able to leave for Circle business at regular intervals. 

Anders' problems with it are much the same. I see no reason to doubt him.

[sylvanaerie]

In regards to the cutscene of mages leaving the tower.  I think showing that many was just 'laziness' on the part of devs.  Or do you actually believe they cloned the same 6-8 mages and sent them to fight the darkspawn?  Because that's what it is, the same 6-8 mages repeated multiple times.  This happens in the Landsmeet you can see the same nobles repeated over and over (including Vaughan who might be dead).  

 

Fact: there are a ton of mages in the Mage Origin doing study, mentoring, going about their business etc.

 

Fact: During Broken Circle and afterward there is a handful left alive.

 

Perhaps the numbers depicted in the cutscene are all those who were outside the tower coupled with those left alive in the tower when the crisis happened/ended.  And from other nearby Circles.  If the Divine told Meredith, suck it up, buttercup, and send them to stop a flippin' Blight, she wouldn't have been able to say 'no'.

[Tevinter Soldier]

You're absolutely right about the engine.

 

I have no problem accepting that the cutscene is the remains of the Circle. I agree it is an engine limitation in-game. HOWEVER, I think it is much more likely that the Tower population was something like 1500 or 1000 and that the majority of them died by the hands of demons since we see a very high death/possessed/body to living mage ratio in the mission itself and since the impression Irving gives us is that the Circle has been weakened greatly and since every narrative element in the game alludes to much being lost due to the blood mages. 

 

of that i agree, absolutely. vast majority were killed (and your numbers make sense being the only tower in an entire country) but that doesn't change the fact that annulling the circle is still killing 100's, the annulment doesn't kill an insignificant handful of mages but every mage that would otherwise assist you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In regards to the cutscene of mages leaving the tower.  I think showing that many was just 'laziness' on the part of devs.  Or do you actually believe they cloned the same 6-8 mages and sent them to fight the darkspawn?  Because that's what it is, the same 6-8 mages repeated multiple times.  This happens in the Landsmeet you can see the same nobles repeated over and over (including Vaughan who might be dead).  

 

Fact: there are a ton of mages in the Mage Origin doing study, mentoring, going about their business etc.

 

Fact: During Broken Circle and afterward there is a handful left alive.

 

Perhaps the numbers depicted in the cutscene are all those who were outside the tower coupled with those left alive in the tower when the crisis happened/ended.  And from other nearby Circles.  If the Divine told Meredith, suck it up, buttercup, and send them to stop a flippin' Blight, she wouldn't have been able to say 'no'.

I don't know if the neighboring Circles sent anyone. Certainly the Orlesian Circles couldn't have. The Nevarrans and Marchers could have, since apparently we know Loghain accepted Marcher soldiers as backup, but I don't know if we have any evidence of this.

[Tevinter Soldier]

In regards to the cutscene of mages leaving the tower.  I think showing that many was just 'laziness' on the part of devs.  Or do you actually believe they cloned the same 6-8 mages and sent them to fight the darkspawn?  Because that's what it is, the same 6-8 mages repeated multiple times.  This happens in the Landsmeet you can see the same nobles repeated over and over (including Vaughan who might be dead).  

 

Fact: there are a ton of mages in the Mage Origin doing study, mentoring, going about their business etc.

 

Fact: During Broken Circle and afterward there is a handful left alive.

 

Perhaps the numbers depicted in the cutscene are all those who were outside the tower coupled with those left alive in the tower when the crisis happened/ended.  And from other nearby Circles.  If the Divine told Meredith, suck it up, buttercup, and send them to stop a flippin' Blight, she wouldn't have been able to say 'no'.

 

that's a lot of head cannon you've got going on their. after the landsmeet the wardens were allowed to return the fereldon so why didn't we just get the rest of the wardens wating in orlais to return?

 

damn easier then waiting for this info to reach the divine then rely it to all the nearst circles (which are in different countries across the frostbacks or the otherside of the waking sea.

 

people have sighted time and time again its not just a handful after the quest you find mages everywhere and an army if they were all out and about why didn't we see any before the quest?