1757 réponses à ce sujet

[berrieh]

have any of you considered the reason why more mages weren't shown was due to restrictions with the game engine?

 

just like you never see the army at ostagar outside a cutscene.

the same reason denrium is populated by what 20 people? 

that the tower has room for what 20 mages?

the fact that your back up sends you an arbitrary squad of people, we really went to all this trouble to get 30 men?

 

what you see in cut scenes is the remains of the circle. the rite kills them all.

 

You're absolutely right about the engine.

 

I have no problem accepting that the cutscene is the remains of the Circle. I agree it is an engine limitation in-game. HOWEVER, I think it is much more likely that the Tower population was something like 1500 or 1000 and that the majority of them died by the hands of demons since we see a very high death/possessed/body to living mage ratio in the mission itself and since the impression Irving gives us is that the Circle has been weakened greatly and since every narrative element in the game alludes to much being lost due to the blood mages. 

 

 

I'm almost positive that it doesn't, because it would blatantly contradict all other lore we've received about the Circle. I would say nearly all of them would be inside the Circle, especially since they're all exiting it.

 

 

Yes, after the tragedy, I imagine they were mostly called back unless on truly urgent business or unreachable. Remember the game is a year, so likely months pass between Broken Circle and the final battle.

 

Yes, that lore. Given that all are enchanters/senior enchanters on specific missions; I find it gruesomely unlikely that so many mages were sent out that far, which would practically obviate the point of the Circle to begin with and make Meredith's actions be even more blatantly terrible and reflecting poorly on the Chantry for not reining in.

 

But the Ferelden Circle is not the Kirkwall Circle (nor the Circles after what happened at Kirkwall, where restrictions are levied). During the time of DA:O, Enchanters whose phylacteries were on file at the Circle seemed to be able to leave for Circle business at regular intervals. 

[Xilizhra]

You're absolutely right about the engine.

 

I have no problem accepting that the cutscene is the remains of the Circle. I agree it is an engine limitation in-game. HOWEVER, I think it is much more likely that the Tower population was something like 1500 or 1000 and that the majority of them died by the hands of demons since we see a very high death/possessed/body to living mage ratio in the mission itself and since the impression Irving gives us is that the Circle has been weakened greatly and since every narrative element in the game alludes to much being lost due to the blood mages. 

It was damaged, obviously, but recovery is far more possible far more quickly than it would have been if the templars had murdered everyone.

And if so many mages were out of the tower at the time, they could have joined up with the army anyway after the Annulment.

 

 

But the Ferelden Circle is not the Kirkwall Circle (nor the Circles after what happened at Kirkwall, where restrictions are levied). During the time of DA:O, Enchanters whose phylacteries were on file at the Circle seemed to be able to leave for Circle business at regular intervals. 

Anders' problems with it are much the same. I see no reason to doubt him.

[sylvanaerie]

In regards to the cutscene of mages leaving the tower.  I think showing that many was just 'laziness' on the part of devs.  Or do you actually believe they cloned the same 6-8 mages and sent them to fight the darkspawn?  Because that's what it is, the same 6-8 mages repeated multiple times.  This happens in the Landsmeet you can see the same nobles repeated over and over (including Vaughan who might be dead).  

 

Fact: there are a ton of mages in the Mage Origin doing study, mentoring, going about their business etc.

 

Fact: During Broken Circle and afterward there is a handful left alive.

 

Perhaps the numbers depicted in the cutscene are all those who were outside the tower coupled with those left alive in the tower when the crisis happened/ended.  And from other nearby Circles.  If the Divine told Meredith, suck it up, buttercup, and send them to stop a flippin' Blight, she wouldn't have been able to say 'no'.

[Tevinter Soldier]

You're absolutely right about the engine.

 

I have no problem accepting that the cutscene is the remains of the Circle. I agree it is an engine limitation in-game. HOWEVER, I think it is much more likely that the Tower population was something like 1500 or 1000 and that the majority of them died by the hands of demons since we see a very high death/possessed/body to living mage ratio in the mission itself and since the impression Irving gives us is that the Circle has been weakened greatly and since every narrative element in the game alludes to much being lost due to the blood mages. 

 

of that i agree, absolutely. vast majority were killed (and your numbers make sense being the only tower in an entire country) but that doesn't change the fact that annulling the circle is still killing 100's, the annulment doesn't kill an insignificant handful of mages but every mage that would otherwise assist you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

In regards to the cutscene of mages leaving the tower.  I think showing that many was just 'laziness' on the part of devs.  Or do you actually believe they cloned the same 6-8 mages and sent them to fight the darkspawn?  Because that's what it is, the same 6-8 mages repeated multiple times.  This happens in the Landsmeet you can see the same nobles repeated over and over (including Vaughan who might be dead).  

 

Fact: there are a ton of mages in the Mage Origin doing study, mentoring, going about their business etc.

 

Fact: During Broken Circle and afterward there is a handful left alive.

 

Perhaps the numbers depicted in the cutscene are all those who were outside the tower coupled with those left alive in the tower when the crisis happened/ended.  And from other nearby Circles.  If the Divine told Meredith, suck it up, buttercup, and send them to stop a flippin' Blight, she wouldn't have been able to say 'no'.

I don't know if the neighboring Circles sent anyone. Certainly the Orlesian Circles couldn't have. The Nevarrans and Marchers could have, since apparently we know Loghain accepted Marcher soldiers as backup, but I don't know if we have any evidence of this.

[Tevinter Soldier]

In regards to the cutscene of mages leaving the tower.  I think showing that many was just 'laziness' on the part of devs.  Or do you actually believe they cloned the same 6-8 mages and sent them to fight the darkspawn?  Because that's what it is, the same 6-8 mages repeated multiple times.  This happens in the Landsmeet you can see the same nobles repeated over and over (including Vaughan who might be dead).  

 

Fact: there are a ton of mages in the Mage Origin doing study, mentoring, going about their business etc.

 

Fact: During Broken Circle and afterward there is a handful left alive.

 

Perhaps the numbers depicted in the cutscene are all those who were outside the tower coupled with those left alive in the tower when the crisis happened/ended.  And from other nearby Circles.  If the Divine told Meredith, suck it up, buttercup, and send them to stop a flippin' Blight, she wouldn't have been able to say 'no'.

 

that's a lot of head cannon you've got going on their. after the landsmeet the wardens were allowed to return the fereldon so why didn't we just get the rest of the wardens wating in orlais to return?

 

damn easier then waiting for this info to reach the divine then rely it to all the nearst circles (which are in different countries across the frostbacks or the otherside of the waking sea.

 

people have sighted time and time again its not just a handful after the quest you find mages everywhere and an army if they were all out and about why didn't we see any before the quest?

[Keroko]

He's too cowardly to stick his head through the door and look for survivors. He's not going to risk taking on the person who wiped the demons and abominations. The man's alright with overwhelming odds behind him but not when there is a chance of him losing.

 

That would be a wrong assumption.

 

of that i agree, absolutely. vast majority were killed (and your numbers make sense being the only tower in an entire country) but that doesn't change the fact that annulling the circle is still killing 100's, the annulment doesn't kill an insignificant handful of mages but every mage that would otherwise assist you.

 

I'd be surprised if the Annulment didn't mean that any mage who might have been away at the time would be hunted down as well.

[sylvanaerie]

I don't know if the neighboring Circles sent anyone. Certainly the Orlesian Circles couldn't have. The Nevarrans and Marchers could have, since apparently we know Loghain accepted Marcher soldiers as backup, but I don't know if we have any evidence of this.

I don't know either, just trying to find a logical reason it shows a decimated Circle and then suddenly row upon row of the same 6-8 mages marching out of the Circle.

There is even a dialogue option you can take Irving something along the lines of "There are so few of you" and Irving responds with something like "Don't underestimate us."

[Xilizhra]

I'd be surprised if the Annulment didn't mean that any mage who might have been away at the time would be hunted down as well.

Ah, so it's just mass murder with no justification, then?

 

Greagoir's going down in Inquisition if I can manage it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'd be surprised if the Annulment didn't mean that any mage who might have been away at the time would be hunted down as well.

... what? As I understand it, the Annulment is supposed to be because things are so bad inside the Circle that any mage inside the Circle could have been compromised whether they want it or not. Yes, it's used for political purposes, but that's using it wrongly. And the only reason killing everyone is done is because in such a situation (where demons are running rampant, any mage can be an abomination, and anything can be possessed,) there's too much danger in asking questions before shooting or stabbing because of the sheer number of abominations and the fact that any survivor you try to comfort could try to bite you in half. What part of that supports the idea that mages outside the Circle would be hunted down?

[Tevinter Soldier]

That would be a wrong assumption.

 

 

I'd be surprised if the Annulment didn't mean that any mage who might have been away at the time would be hunted down as well.

 

I doubt Hundreds of mages were outside the circle when this happened, i mean i know fereldon was relaxed but hundreds out and about?

that goes well against the lore and remember if these guys were all off having a grand old time why don't we see them BEFORE the quest?

 

it make far more sense that the engine simply couldn't render them in theone place so we get a small section of the circle to explore with a low number of people in it. afterwards the circle is so badly damaged it cannot house them all and with the warden contracts in place the templars can no longer hold them until the blight is resolved.

[Tevinter Soldier]

... what? As I understand it, the Annulment is supposed to be because things are so bad inside the Circle that any mage inside the Circle could have been compromised whether they want it or not. Yes, it's used for political purposes, but that's using it wrongly. Where do you get that mages outside the Circle would be hunted down?

 

because ALL MEMBERS of a circle are annulled. (its the only way to be sure) its annulling an entire circle not, annulling anyone who's inside at the time.

[Keroko]

Ah, so it's just mass murder with no justification, then?

 

Greagoir's going down in Inquisition if I can manage it.

 

 

... what? As I understand it, the Annulment is supposed to be because things are so bad inside the Circle that any mage inside the Circle could have been compromised whether they want it or not. Yes, it's used for political purposes, but that's using it wrongly. And the only reason killing everyone is done is because in such a situation (where demons are running rampant, any mage can be an abomination, and anything can be possessed,) there's too much danger in asking questions before shooting or stabbing because of the sheer number of abominations and the fact that any survivor you try to comfort could try to bite you in half. What part of that supports the idea that mages outside the Circle would be hunted down?

 

Well, the annulment is the total annihilation of a Circle deemed beyond redemption. Makes sense to eliminate also those mages away, because who knows if they're part of the conspiracy or not.

 

Compare it to our world's terrorist investigation: We don't just arrest the terrorist we see, but also run checks on who he's with to see if we can identify and co-conspirators. The annulment is that, but with a zero-tollerance scorched-earth policy.

 

To illustrate, the Ferelden Circle went to hell because a band of extremists took over, screwed up and started summoning demons all over the place. Who is to say how many mages out in the field were or were not a part of Uldred's plan?

 

There's a reason why there have been only nineteen annulments over close to a thousand years of the Circles existing. They are kind of a last resort even most extremist templars find too distasteful to employ.

 

 

I doubt Hundreds of mages were outside the circle when this happened, i mean i know fereldon was relaxed but hundreds out and about?

that goes well against the lore and remember if these guys were all off having a grand old time why don't we see them BEFORE the quest?

 

it make far more sense that the engine simply couldn't render them in theone place so we get a small section of the circle to explore with a low number of people in it. afterwards the circle is so badly damaged it cannot house them all and with the warden contracts in place the templars can no longer hold them until the blight is resolved.

 

34. I don't know where the hundreds is coming from, but the number of mages we see leaving the Circle during the speech cutscene is 34, give or take a mage.

[Xilizhra]

Compare it to our world's terrorist investigation: We don't just arrest the terrorist we see, but also run checks on who he's with to see if we can identify and co-conspirators. The annulment is that, but with a zero-tollerance scorched-earth policy.

Yes. And that is just one more motivating factor for me to ensure that the templars can never commit it, or any other harm to mages, ever again.

[Keroko]

Yes. And that is just one more motivating factor for me to ensure that the templars can never commit it, or any other harm to mages, ever again.

 

You're brushing all templars with the same stroke again. Recall for a moment how many blood- or otherwise evil mages we encounter in the games. Should we use them as the standard to judge mages by as well?

[Xilizhra]

You're brushing all templars with the same stroke again. Recall for a moment how many blood- or otherwise evil mages we encounter in the games. Should we use them as the standard to judge mages by as well?

The Right of Annulment and far too many other things are too deeply woven into the Order's policies for the Order to be allowed to survive. This isn't to say that I'll necessarily kill everyone involved; I do accept surrenders. But I won't be trying too hard against those who would either declare Annulment or be willing to participate... and that includes Cullen.

[berrieh]

You're brushing all templars with the same stroke again. Recall for a moment how many blood- or otherwise evil mages we encounter in the games. Should we use them as the standard to judge mages by as well?

 

 

The Right of Annulment and far too many other things are too deeply woven into the Order's policies for the Order to be allowed to survive. This isn't to say that I'll necessarily kill everyone involved; I do accept surrenders. But I won't be trying too hard against those who would either declare Annulment or be willing to participate... and that includes Cullen.

 

You did not answer the premise of the question - Why is it okay to paint all Templars with the same brush if we are not to do that for all Mages? 

 

It was damaged, obviously, but recovery is far more possible far more quickly than it would have been if the templars had murdered everyone.

And if so many mages were out of the tower at the time, they could have joined up with the army anyway after the Annulment.

 

 

Anders' problems with it are much the same. I see no reason to doubt him.

 

Obviously, recovery is helped by survivors. I am very much FOR saving the Circle; however I don't think Gregoir is wrong to believe it near-impossible. It's a good thing the Hero of Ferelden came along. But remember the PC does things no one else can do.

 

As to Anders, yes, if you try to escape the Circle several times, I imagine they restrict you quite a bit. 

[The Elder King]

There's no proof that templars kill mages outside The Circle when Annulling one. Though it might depend on The situation. For The Broken circle, I don't think mages outside The circle would be killed. For an annulment like the one in Rivain, it's likely they killed mages Outside it as well.

[ianvillan]

 

 

Gregoir is a good Templar. He is moderate, he likes the First Enchanter and works with him, and he doesn't even seek to punish the Circle for what the blood mages wrought. He seems genuinely saddened by what has happened and angry as much at himself for not catching it and stopping the needless death as anything. Not all Templars are Gregoir, and that is the problem, but painting Gregoir with the same brush as the abusive Templars because he had to make legitimately tough decisions is silly. 

 

 

 

Gregoir is not moderate and Irving knows this and does not trust him.

 

In the Mage Origin story Irving can tell you to follow Jowan to get proof that the Chantry sister is helping him because he knows that Gregoir will not take his word that she was involved or punish her and that he would only punish Jowan.

 

After they catch your group Gregoir still doesn't want to punish the sister, it is only after Jowan does blood magic that he decides too, he then orders your characters death even though you were acting on the first enchanters orders, you had passed your harrowing and your Phylactery was not destroyed. Gregoir ignores Irving and it is only the presence of Duncan that saves your life.

[Keroko]

The Right of Annulment and far too many other things are too deeply woven into the Order's policies for the Order to be allowed to survive. This isn't to say that I'll necessarily kill everyone involved; I do accept surrenders. But I won't be trying too hard against those who would either declare Annulment or be willing to participate... and that includes Cullen.

 

And the use of blood magic has persisted to this day as well, despite it being an incredibly shady magic not even legal almost anywhere in Thedas. But I'd rather change the rules to ensure we can research blood magic and make it much less of a danger than to kill all mages because of the danger of it being practised.

 

Likewise with the templars, I'd rather abolish the Right of Annulment entirely and withhold any use of the Rite of Tranquillity until we've found a way to use it without severing emotions. Because wiping out the order that is our best line of defence against magic and our best method of tracking down young mages and recruit them into Circles before they harm their surroundings sounds like a bad long-term plan.

[ianvillan]

There's no proof that templars kill mages outside The Circle when Annulling one. Though it might depend on The situation. For The Broken circle, I don't think mages outside The circle would be killed. For an annulment like the one in Rivain, it's likely they killed mages Outside it as well.

 

How would the Templars know that the Mages outside the circle  were not in league with the ones inside, that they don't know how to do blood magic and would use it again.

 

The right of Annulment is the total destruction of a circle, the deaths of every Man, Woman and Child that are living in the circle.

[The Elder King]

How would the Templars know that the Mages outside the circle  were not in league with the ones inside, that they don't know how to do blood magic and would use it again.
 
The right of Annulment is the total destruction of a circle, the deaths of every Man, Woman and Child that are living in the circle.

And those mages weren't currently inside.
Not that it matter much to me (The Annulment is already an extreme method) but until a devs says otherwise, there's no proof they kill mages outside of The circle.

[The Elder King]

Gregoir is not moderate and Irving knows this and does not trust him.
 
In the Mage Origin story Irving can tell you to follow Jowan to get proof that the Chantry sister is helping him because he knows that Gregoir will not take his word that she was involved or punish her and that he would only punish Jowan.
 
After they catch your group Gregoir still doesn't want to punish the sister, it is only after Jowan does blood magic that he decides too, he then orders your characters death even though you were acting on the first enchanters orders, you had passed your harrowing and your Phylactery was not destroyed. Gregoir ignores Irving and it is only the presence of Duncan that saves your life.

As far as I recall Gregoir didn't say anything about not punishing Lily. And I very much doubt he wouldn't. He recognized Irving was right and that she helped him.

[Keroko]

Gregoir is not moderate and Irving knows this and does not trust him.

 

In the Mage Origin story Irving can tell you to follow Jowan to get proof that the Chantry sister is helping him because he knows that Gregoir will not take his word that she was involved or punish her and that he would only punish Jowan.

 

After they catch your group Gregoir still doesn't want to punish the sister, it is only after Jowan does blood magic that he decides too, he then orders your characters death even though you were acting on the first enchanters orders, you had passed your harrowing and your Phylactery was not destroyed. Gregoir ignores Irving and it is only the presence of Duncan that saves your life.

 

Whow, lots of headcanon here. Irving trusts Gregoir to the point where the rather viciously shoots down your mage when you claim Gregoir is making Jowan's weakness up because he hates mages. Gregoir doesn't order your character's death, he orders your character detained while he is going to launch a thorough investigation. He also does say Lily will be punished. It's one of the first things he says, actually.

[sylvanaerie]

Whow, lots of headcanon here. Irving trusts Gregoir to the point where the rather viciously shoots down your mage when you claim Gregoir is making Jowan's weakness up because he hates mages. Gregoir doesn't order your character's death, he orders your character detained while he is going to launch a thorough investigation. He also does say Lily will be punished. It's one of the first things he says, actually.

 

Gregoir catches them in the act:  

At 4:16