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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He also does say Lily will be punished. It's one of the first things he says, actually.

In fact he says this before Jowan even escapes. It's what motivates Jowan to blast everyone in sight. (He doesn't even mention what they're planning to do to him during his angry outburst before he attacks. Say what you want about Jowan's ability to make responsible decisions, he's still a perfect counterexample to the anti-maleficarum propaganda that Lily spouts seconds later that blood magic makes you evil.)

[Xilizhra]

You did not answer the premise of the question - Why is it okay to paint all Templars with the same brush if we are not to do that for all Mages? 

Because all templars in the Order followed the call to war against the mages. Those who did not, like Cullen, left.

 

Also, being a templar is voluntary, whereas being a mage is not.

 

 

And the use of blood magic has persisted to this day as well, despite it being an incredibly shady magic not even legal almost anywhere in Thedas. But I'd rather change the rules to ensure we can research blood magic and make it much less of a danger than to kill all mages because of the danger of it being practised.

 

Likewise with the templars, I'd rather abolish the Right of Annulment entirely and withhold any use of the Rite of Tranquillity until we've found a way to use it without severing emotions. Because wiping out the order that is our best line of defence against magic and our best method of tracking down young mages and recruit them into Circles before they harm their surroundings sounds like a bad long-term plan.

I simply don't trust the templars enough to allow that to happen. Appropriate their training techniques, sure; their skills are useful for protecting mages from demons. But every last templar (who didn't leave the Order) attacked the mages without the Chantry's sanction; there's neither legal nor moral ground to stand on, and I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Also, being a templar is voluntary, whereas being a mage is not.

Only to a point. Alistair absolutely did not like being a Templar, but he had no other choice until Duncan provided him another way to get three full plates of food every day. Nor did he voluntarily join up with the Templars to receive this food: that was more Isolde's decision than anything else. And then there's Samson, who proves that remaining a Templar becomes far less voluntary as you stay one longer and longer.

[Xilizhra]

Only to a point. Alistair absolutely did not like being a Templar, but he had no other choice until Duncan provided him another way to get three full plates of food every day. Nor did he voluntarily join up with the Templars to receive this food: that was more Isolde's decision than anything else. And then there's Samson, who proves that remaining a Templar becomes far less voluntary as you stay one longer and longer.

Samson refutes this in DA2, when he says that those who join the Order are free to walk away. As for it being less voluntary... that's all the more reason to stay with the Chantry after the Order splits off, because the Chantry still controls the lyrium.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Samson refutes this in DA2, when he says that those who join the Order are free to walk away.

Free to walk away and do what? Alistair was signed up as a kid, and I seem to recall that he had only been educated once he reached the Chantry. Thus, at any point he had only as much education as the Chantry had had time to provide him. (This was probably more than decent by the time he walked away, especially relative to what someone you meet on the street or in the fields would have, but it's not very helpful after only a year or two.) What else was he to do, before Duncan showed him there was another way to make a living with the skills he'd been taught and signed him up immediately so that he didn't have to spend any time unemployed?

[Xilizhra]

Free to walk away and do what? Alistair was signed up as a kid, and I seem to recall that he had only been educated once he reached the Chantry. Thus, at any point he had only as much education as the Chantry had had time to provide him. (This was probably more than decent by the time he walked away, especially relative to what someone you meet on the street or in the fields would have, but it's not very helpful after only a year or two.) What else was he to do, before Duncan showed him there was another way to make a living with the skills he'd been taught and signed him up immediately so that he didn't have to spend any time unemployed?

The point I'm making is mostly that no one who's attacking the mages in this war is doing so unwillingly.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The point I'm making is mostly that no one who's attacking the mages in this war is doing so unwillingly.

In which case, you're being fair. In fact they're probably putting up with hunger to do so now that they're not funded by a religiously based NGO superpower. (I'll bet you can court some Templars away from Lambert by tugging that string.)

[Heimdall]

The point I'm making is mostly that no one who's attacking the mages in this war is doing so unwillingly.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean they are all working under the same circumstances. Say, for example, a group of Mages that have resorted to blood magic and demon summoning, perhaps preying on local villagers. That isn't the same as a group of Templars slaughtering young apprentices on principle.

That, and the Templars may have acquired a new source of lyrium. As Samson says, lyrium withdrawal "damn near kills you", so sorry that could be a reason they're sticking with the order at this point.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That, and the Templars may have acquired a new source of lyrium. As Samson says, lyrium withdrawal "damn near kills you", so sorry that could be a reason they're sticking with the order at this point.

I don't think so. Even if the rebel Templars have found a new way to get their fix (that isn't by becoming a Red Templar), any individual Templar can still get what they need from the Chantry.

[berrieh]

Because all templars in the Order followed the call to war against the mages. Those who did not, like Cullen, left.

 

Also, being a templar is voluntary, whereas being a mage is not.

 

I simply don't trust the templars enough to allow that to happen. Appropriate their training techniques, sure; their skills are useful for protecting mages from demons. But every last templar (who didn't leave the Order) attacked the mages without the Chantry's sanction; there's neither legal nor moral ground to stand on, and I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

 

We don't know that every Templar who remained within the order believes attacking the mages is right or even that separating from the Chantry is right. I imagine the Templars are quite splintered. We don't even know that, in every Templar/Mage battle we see, that the Templars are the aggressor. The Mages could pre-emptively attack groups of Templars who gather to re-group and decide upon what to do. I will judge situations individually, personally, and paint neither group with broad strokes. 

 

This war was pushed by extremists on both sides. The damage caused - to Mages, Templars, and other folks alike - by those extremists. Your view, ironically, is rather extreme.

 

I'm not wildly pro-Templar, but I am moderate. Without extremists on either side, so many tragedies would be avoided. 

[Keroko]

I simply don't trust the templars enough to allow that to happen. Appropriate their training techniques, sure; their skills are useful for protecting mages from demons. But every last templar (who didn't leave the Order) attacked the mages without the Chantry's sanction; there's neither legal nor moral ground to stand on, and I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

 

And I don't trust mages not to practice blood magic and use it and their other skills for evil either. But rather than kill them all over it, I prefer to ensure we have methods of dealing with those who do.

[sandalisthemaker]

For all the haters:

 

 

 

Slay 'em Viv.

[Keroko]

Most people see the end of the world.

 

She sees... opportunities.

[Xilizhra]

In which case, you're being fair. In fact they're probably putting up with hunger to do so now that they're not funded by a religiously based NGO superpower. (I'll bet you can court some Templars away from Lambert by tugging that string.)

Lambert seems to be a little on the dead side. But if I can do that, I will.

 

 

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean they are all working under the same circumstances. Say, for example, a group of Mages that have resorted to blood magic and demon summoning, perhaps preying on local villagers. That isn't the same as a group of Templars slaughtering young apprentices on principle.

That, and the Templars may have acquired a new source of lyrium. As Samson says, lyrium withdrawal "damn near kills you", so sorry that could be a reason they're sticking with the order at this point.

And the former case wouldn't require one to be in the Order to handle.

 

 

We don't know that every Templar who remained within the order believes attacking the mages is right or even that separating from the Chantry is right. I imagine the Templars are quite splintered. We don't even know that, in every Templar/Mage battle we see, that the Templars are the aggressor. The Mages could pre-emptively attack groups of Templars who gather to re-group and decide upon what to do. I will judge situations individually, personally, and paint neither group with broad strokes. 

 

This war was pushed by extremists on both sides. The damage caused - to Mages, Templars, and other folks alike - by those extremists. Your view, ironically, is rather extreme.

 

I'm not wildly pro-Templar, but I am moderate. Without extremists on either side, so many tragedies would be avoided. 

Then why didn't they stay with the Chantry? And the Templar Order is the aggressive party in this war; even if there are mages going on the offensive against templars, the templars were still the ones who declared war.

And plenty of damage has been caused by allegedly moderate templars who simply lacked the moral courage to say no.

 

 

And I don't trust mages not to practice blood magic and use it and their other skills for evil either. But rather than kill them all over it, I prefer to ensure we have methods of dealing with those who do.

If you have a better means of bringing about the end of the Templar Order than defeating them in war, please tell me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Most people see the end of the world.

 

She sees... opportunities.

Varys and Littlefinger were both wrong. Chaos is a hungry, gaping pit with a slippery ladder over it.

[Ryzaki]

I disagree. They could just as easily blame their own faction leaders for pushing for secession in the first place.

 

My own Human Mage will have issues both with sides. He won't be anti-Templar, that's for sure. He'll simply be anti-Idiocy.

 

Ha! He and my human mage will get along.

[Keroko]

If you have a better means of bringing about the end of the Templar Order than defeating them in war, please tell me.

Reformation.

First, we yank the secret to templar powers without lyrium from the seekers. An order dedicated to guarding people can ill afford being addicted to a drug that causes paranoia, obsession and dementia.

Second, the Right of Annulment gets annulled. I understand why it was created, but the new, progressive templars will have no need to slaughter everyone should the worst case scenario happen.

Third, the Rite of Tranquillity is to be further studied alongside the reformed Circle, until we have found a solution that still seals magic and the risk of demonic possession, but doesn't cut of all emotion.

Fourth, like the Rite of Tranquillity, blood magic will be studied alongside the reformed Circle. It is ridiculous that the magic that is most feared throughout Thedas is understood so little. The templars will work to find ways to resist, and more importantly detect it. No longer will "he might be a blood mage thrall" be a question that needs asking.

Fifth, with the increased freedom the reformed Circle will gain, all effort will be made to mend relationships between the templars and mages as guardians rather than jailors. Privacy will be given to the mages the same way every guard gives privacy to his charge. Templars will still make up the bulk of a Circle's recruiting force, and they will still be frontier warriors to hunt down rogue mages, but they will be taught that doing the former is done to protect the mage and those around the mage, rather than just those around the mage, and where possible a mage will accompany teams of templars.

 

Sixth, a very, very clear line will be drawn between malifecar and apostates. Apostates are to be approached with friendly intent, preferably with the party's mage doing the initial talking. Lethal force on apostates is not allowed unless the apostate has done so first.

 

Seventh, we reform the seekers and ensure they have no authority over the templars whatsoever. Seekers will accompany templar parties where able. Any case made against a templar will be brought to the Chantry. Under no circumstance do the Seekers have authority to take command of a templar's position.

[berrieh]

 

Then why didn't they stay with the Chantry? And the Templar Order is the aggressive party in this war; even if there are mages going on the offensive against templars, the templars were still the ones who declared war.

 

And plenty of damage has been caused by allegedly moderate templars who simply lacked the moral courage to say no.

 

If you have a better means of bringing about the end of the Templar Order than defeating them in war, please tell me.

 

The Mages rebelled. The Templars didn't declare war - they set about their sacred, avowed duty to reclaim the Mages and put them back under the Circle's control. The Templars also rebelled, but against the Chantry - you can see this as a rebellion or a separation, much as you can see the Mages choices the same, depending on the side your on; it's really only a rebellion if you lose - but they did so (in theory - they don't know the whole Seeker Lambert v. Justinia V personal drama) because the Chantry no longer controlled the Mages, and that was their sole purpose as an order, to protect the lands of Thedas from Mages and to protect the Mages from themselves and others. This has led to various abuses and problems, I agree, but to paint the Templars as aggressors is incorrect. The Libertarian Mages pushed rebellion - poking and prodding at pressure points, even when the majority of Mages were not on their sides, and whether they were "right" or not, they got their rebellion, which was an act of aggression in and of itself. I lean more pro-Mage than pro-Templar in my game decisions, but I think people who are so avidly pro-Mage that they fail to see any of the good points of Templars have massive blind spots and, ironically, mirror the issues of the Templar Order itself. 

 

As to why not stay with the Chantry, there is a chain of command. Templars are like soldiers; they follow orders. Their leader isn't and has never been the Divine. While they are an Order aligned with the Chantry, they were never directly controlled by it, and the Divine was not at the top of it; she was to the side of it. The separation doesn't change the chain of command, and they are soldiers following it. I'm sure some rebelled, as they saw the Order changing in ways they disagreed with, or they feared, or they simply weren't prepared for. I'm sure others had misgivings but stayed. This is a very complex issue. 

 

As to their fate - I suppose the only way to wipe them out would be to destroy them in open war, but why wipe them out? Even if you do, someone will rise to fight mages in various circumstances where it is required (blood magic, abominations, etc). 

 

I am personally for reformation of the Templar Order and oversight (beyond the Chantry) than it's destruction. I think it would be a waste to either kill them all or - as you said, track them and prevent them from using any of their talents in future for good by refusing them weapons, etc, essentially stripping them of their ability to use their skills and livelihood in any way, when many may have honorable intentions or be very useful with different leadership and oversight. 

 

I don't see the issue as black/white as you do, obviously. You can see the mages doing no wrong, and the templars doing no right. I see the average templar as much a victim of the system's problematic nature as much so - maybe more so - as the average mage. For my part, my solution would begin with putting a more effective 3rd party (or maybe several) over the Circle, with an array of people involved in the decision making, including Mage and Tranquil. 

 

As to why they didn't stay with the Chantry,

[berrieh]

Third, the Rite of Tranquillity is to be further studied alongside the reformed Circle, until we have found a solution that still seals magic and the risk of demonic possession, but doesn't cut of all emotion.
 

 

While I am generally in complete agreement with you (I am for Reformation too), there is very likely no such solution. It is worth studying, but Asunder suggests it likely doesn't exist; therefore, perhaps something new besides Tranquility might work or perhaps these mages must be under stricter watch and made tranquil once polluted, it is unclear. But this is likely a problem without a simple, moral solution. That is the sad fact. 

[Xilizhra]

The Mages rebelled. The Templars didn't declare war - they set about their sacred, avowed duty to reclaim the Mages and put them back under the Circle's control. The Templars also rebelled, but against the Chantry - you can see this as a rebellion or a separation, much as you can see the Mages choices the same, depending on the side your on; it's really only a rebellion if you lose - but they did so (in theory - they don't know the whole Seeker Lambert v. Justinia V personal drama) because the Chantry no longer controlled the Mages, and that was their sole purpose as an order, to protect the lands of Thedas from Mages and to protect the Mages from themselves and others. This has led to various abuses and problems, I agree, but to paint the Templars as aggressors is incorrect. The Libertarian Mages pushed rebellion - poking and prodding at pressure points, even when the majority of Mages were not on their sides, and whether they were "right" or not, they got their rebellion, which was an act of aggression in and of itself. I lean more pro-Mage than pro-Templar in my game decisions, but I think people who are so avidly pro-Mage that they fail to see any of the good points of Templars have massive blind spots and, ironically, mirror the issues of the Templar Order itself.

The mages seceded from the Chantry, which controls the templars. The templars had never existed as an independent polity (they were the Inquisition when they were independent) and had no claim to authority over any mages of their own right. There is no possible moral excuse for waging this war, and there are no good points to the Order as it stands now.

 

 

As to why not stay with the Chantry, there is a chain of command. Templars are like soldiers; they follow orders. Their leader isn't and has never been the Divine. While they are an Order aligned with the Chantry, they were never directly controlled by it, and the Divine was not at the top of it; she was to the side of it. The separation doesn't change the chain of command, and they are soldiers following it. I'm sure some rebelled, as they saw the Order changing in ways they disagreed with, or they feared, or they simply weren't prepared for. I'm sure others had misgivings but stayed. This is a very complex issue.

The Lord Seeker and Knight-Vigilant are both subordinates to the Divine, not independent actors.

 

 

As to their fate - I suppose the only way to wipe them out would be to destroy them in open war, but why wipe them out? Even if you do, someone will rise to fight mages in various circumstances where it is required (blood magic, abominations, etc).

As the Inquisition, I intend to handle the protection of mages myself, and will do it better this time.

 

 

I am personally for reformation of the Templar Order and oversight (beyond the Chantry) than it's destruction. I think it would be a waste to either kill them all or - as you said, track them and prevent them from using any of their talents in future for good by refusing them weapons, etc, essentially stripping them of their ability to use their skills and livelihood in any way, when many may have honorable intentions or be very useful with different leadership and oversight.

Maybe they can be Grey Warden conscripts, but I'd be reluctant to suddenly bloat the Wardens with an ideology so slanted. Of course, anyone who leaves the Order before the war is over will have more options...

 

 

I don't see the issue as black/white as you do, obviously. You can see the mages doing no wrong

Hardly. A righteous war needs not have all its warriors be righteous; that's virtually impossible. There's been plenty of wrongdoing by mages, I won't deny that; it's just that none of it changes the fact that the Templar Order must be destroyed, and the Chantry prevented from recreating it on similar terms.

[Heimdall]

I don't think so. Even if the rebel Templars have found a new way to get their fix (that isn't by becoming a Red Templar), any individual Templar can still get what they need from the Chantry.

Considering the current state of the Chantry after the prologue, I'm less sure that's still the case.

[Heimdall]

And the former case wouldn't require one to be in the Order to handle?

No, but what reason would they have to leave the order?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Considering the current state of the Chantry after the prologue, I'm less sure that's still the case.

I suppose that that will weaken them a lot, and possibly eventually cause the Chantry to lose the power to control the lyirum trade, but I don't think decapitating them like that would immediately shut down the infrastructure and bureaucracy that handles the lyrium. So I don't see how this would immediately cause such a problem. Besides, if the dwarves did stop trading with the Chantry for these reasons, wouldn't it make more sense for them to lift the monopoly instead of shifting it? The monopoly, as I understood it, was more the Chantry's idea than the dwarves'.

[berrieh]

The mages seceded from the Chantry, which controls the templars. The templars had never existed as an independent polity (they were the Inquisition when they were independent) and had no claim to authority over any mages of their own right. There is no possible moral excuse for waging this war, and there are no good points to the Order as it stands now.

 

This is untrue. The Templars had - long ago - existed as an independent party and bent to the Chantry's influence when the Chantry controlled the mages. Granted, even if the Templars had stayed with the Chantry, there is no reason to believe the Chantry was going to be all, "Cool! Go be free, Mages." They would have likely sent Templars. 

 

Disagree with the Templars breaking away from the Chantry if you like - the Templars perhaps waged aggression against the Chantry - but the Mages were as aggressive, if not moreso for being first. 

 

The Lord Seeker and Knight-Vigilant are both subordinates to the Divine, not independent actors.

 

Not precisely. They are the Right Hand of the divine, yes, but the Templar order is the remnants of the former Inquisition, as are the Seekers, and joined with the Chantry in the Divine Age under the Nevveran Accord. Their independence is either equal or less an act of aggression to the Chantry than the Mage's independence, depending on how you view it.

 

As the Inquisition, I intend to handle the protection of mages myself, and will do it better this time.

 

 

So one person will be in charge? That's great checks and balances.

 

And this makes me LOL particularly because the Templars basically came from the last Inquisition. You would make yourself the Templar. What an interesting choice. When innocents are slaughtered by abominations that were once weak mages, when blood magic runs rampant, when demons are called into villages and you see the harm first-hand and can only do so by some means of controlling the mages, what will you do? Will you let it continue? How will you stop it? I am not saying there aren't better ways than the current Templars (I'm adamant there are), but I do think there are a lack of easy answers. 

 

Maybe they can be Grey Warden conscripts, but I'd be reluctant to suddenly bloat the Wardens with an ideology so slanted. Of course, anyone who leaves the Order before the war is over will have more options...

 

 

So maybe they can all be sentenced to the taint and potential death? Just because being a GW worked out well for the PC in DA:O doesn't mean it usually does. That's a pretty cruel sentence to place upon Templars wholesale. 

 

Hardly. A righteous war needs not have all its warriors be righteous; that's virtually impossible. There's been plenty of wrongdoing by mages, I won't deny that; it's just that none of it changes the fact that the Templar Order must be destroyed, and the Chantry prevented from recreating it on similar terms.

 

 

You have come up with no better solution. Your whole, "I'll keep mages in check" is not a solution that makes any sense in the lore of Thedas. What happens when you, as the Inquisitor, die? How can you be everywhere? Without a solution, the Templars will have plenty to join their ranks and cause and the Mages may even be hunted and lynched and so forth, plus many commonfolk will die at the hands of mages and templars alike. You have presented only criticism and no solution, with no understanding to the problem Templars were created to solve. You acknowledge it exists but have no desire to solve it beyond a vague, "Well, I'm trustworthy, I'll handle it." You don't even have a code, like the Order. You have nothing. 

 

I am not suggesting the Templars are righteous. I am suggesting they are the product of a problem that requires a solution; I am not saying the Templars as they are today are that solution, but I am suggesting there have been far worse solutions in the past and that having no solution is also far worse. For all involved. This will get uglier before it gets fixed, no doubt, but the idea that it is black/white will not fix it sooner. 

[Heimdall]

I think the Templars should play a central role in a reformed Circle system. The trick will be finding a way to limit the potential for abuse without rendering them ineffective.