1757 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

I suppose that that will weaken them a lot, and possibly eventually cause the Chantry to lose the power to control the lyirum trade, but I don't think decapitating them like that would immediately shut down the infrastructure and bureaucracy that handles the lyrium. So I don't see how this would immediately cause such a problem. Besides, if the dwarves did stop trading with the Chantry for these reasons, wouldn't it make more sense for them to lift the monopoly instead of shifting it? The monopoly, as I understood it, was more the Chantry's idea than the dwarves'.

The infrastructure might be there, but the Chantry is in chaos and headless right now. I just think it's ability to actually deploy and utilize its resources would be severely inhibited. I'm unsure what the dwarves would do, somehow I think they would wait and see before opening up the trade, given the chaos and uncertainty above them.

[Xilizhra]

 

This is untrue. The Templars had - long ago - existed as an independent party and bent to the Chantry's influence when the Chantry controlled the mages. Granted, even if the Templars had stayed with the Chantry, there is no reason to believe the Chantry was going to be all, "Cool! Go be free, Mages." They would have likely sent Templars. 

 

Disagree with the Templars breaking away from the Chantry if you like - the Templars perhaps waged aggression against the Chantry - but the Mages were as aggressive, if not moreso for being first.

Actually, the templars only broke away from the Chantry because the Chantry didn't pursue the mages; Justinia refused to attack the Circle.

 

 

Not precisely. They are the Right Hand of the divine, yes, but the Templar order is the remnants of the former Inquisition, as are the Seekers, and joined with the Chantry in the Divine Age under the Nevveran Accord. Their independence is either equal or less an act of aggression to the Chantry than the Mage's independence, depending on how you view it.

Equal, but the main problem is that it's an act of aggression against the mages.

 

 

So one person will be in charge? That's great checks and balances.

 

And this makes me LOL particularly because the Templars basically came from the last Inquisition. You would make yourself the Templar. What an interesting choice. When innocents are slaughtered by abominations that were once weak mages, when blood magic runs rampant, when demons are called into villages and you see the harm first-hand and can only do so by some means of controlling the mages, what will you do? Will you let it continue? How will you stop it? I am not saying there aren't better ways than the current Templars (I'm adamant there are), but I do think there are a lack of easy answers. 

This depends entirely on what resources are available to me in the game itself. I'm not opposed to mages being in a segregated society, but I am opposed to mages being non-representatively governed by the Chantry, and opposed completely to the current templars.

 

 

So maybe they can all be sentenced to the taint and potential death? Just because being a GW worked out well for the PC in DA:O doesn't mean it usually does. That's a pretty cruel sentence to place upon Templars wholesale. 

This is me being extremely nice compared to prevailing Thedosian norms, which would likely just have them all killed. But perhaps I'll make it a choice between that and disarmament.

 

 

You have come up with no better solution. Your whole, "I'll keep mages in check" is not a solution that makes any sense in the lore of Thedas. What happens when you, as the Inquisitor, die? How can you be everywhere? Without a solution, the Templars will have plenty to join their ranks and cause and the Mages may even be hunted and lynched and so forth, plus many commonfolk will die at the hands of mages and templars alike. You have presented only criticism and no solution, with no understanding to the problem Templars were created to solve. You acknowledge it exists but have no desire to solve it beyond a vague, "Well, I'm trustworthy, I'll handle it." You don't even have a code, like the Order. You have nothing. 

 

I am not suggesting the Templars are righteous. I am suggesting they are the product of a problem that requires a solution; I am not saying the Templars as they are today are that solution, but I am suggesting there have been far worse solutions in the past and that having no solution is also far worse. For all involved. This will get uglier before it gets fixed, no doubt, but the idea that it is black/white will not fix it sooner. 

I've come up with no better solution because I have no better information since DA2, which didn't include the kind of details necessary to craft an entirely new society (I also don't see why it's my job to come up with a solution, since I didn't start the war).

 

I'm not arguing for no protection for mages whatsoever, I'm only arguing for siding with them and against the templars (I also don't really think there are any worse solutions that I can see).

[Keroko]

While I am generally in complete agreement with you (I am for Reformation too), there is very likely no such solution. It is worth studying, but Asunder suggests it likely doesn't exist; therefore, perhaps something new besides Tranquility might work or perhaps these mages must be under stricter watch and made tranquil once polluted, it is unclear. But this is likely a problem without a simple, moral solution. That is the sad fact. 

 

I find it highly unlikely no such solution exists. We know a connection to the fade is neither essential for life nor emotion, as the dwarves have neither yet live, breathe, laugh and cry the same as we do. The only real difference between us and them is that they don't dream, so I believe further investigation is needed in that area.

[Xilizhra]

I find it highly unlikely no such solution exists. We know a connection to the fade is neither essential for life nor emotion, as the dwarves have neither yet live, breathe, laugh and cry the same as we do. The only real difference between us and them is that they don't dream, so I believe further investigation is needed in that area.

I think dwarves might still have a connection to the Fade, just a very heavily suppressed one. They can still operate in it just as well as humans or elves, after all.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I find it highly unlikely no such solution exists. We know a connection to the fade is neither essential for life nor emotion, as the dwarves have neither yet live, breathe, laugh and cry the same as we do. The only real difference between us and them is that they don't dream, so I believe further investigation is needed in that area.

The dwarves have a connection to the Fade. That has been proven several times. It's just that it's a whole lot weaker. I believe you might still have a point that further investigation is needed to determine whether or not this connection can be artificially stunted to the point where magic is no longer possible, but you might have to be ready to accept disappointment give that that's supposed to have happened over generations.

[berrieh]

Actually, the templars only broke away from the Chantry because the Chantry didn't pursue the mages; Justinia refused to attack the Circle.

 

 

She was never given the chance in Asunder. Lord Seeker Lambert wrote his letter of intent based partially on Leliana's involvement and perhaps this assumption, but no such refusal was made that I remember. Where does this notion come from? 

 

 

Equal, but the main problem is that it's an act of aggression against the mages.

 

 

 

 

No. The Mages rebelled; they went first. That's like saying the North perpetuated an act of aggression against the South after they rebelled at Fort Sumnter. It's not really sensible. The Mages are the ones who wanted to change the status quo, thus they are the aggressors (whether they are righteous, rebels, or somewhere in between is up to interpretation of course). They are the ones who "began" it. By any measure you choose, in terms of what is happening now with the Circles, the mages started it. They were pushed by Templar policies, Chantry and common indifference, and their own extremists' plots, but they began us down this path. 

 

 

entirely on what resources are available to me in the game itself. I'm not opposed to mages being in a segregated society, but I am opposed to mages being non-representatively governed by the Chantry, and opposed completely to the current templars.

 

What if you find there are no good resources available and no easy options? What if you find the solution is not quite so simple as you hoped and if every path brings some evil? 

 

 

This is me being extremely nice compared to prevailing Thedosian norms, which would likely just have them all killed. But perhaps I'll make it a choice between that and disarmament.

 

 

Not nice compared to the norms Templars generally imposed against the Mages until recently, and you villify them. They accepted even mages who had turned apostate back into the Circle and rarely imposed sanctions. We have seen escaped (and returned) Mages even in DA2/Kirkwall who were accepted back into the Circle, not made Tranquil or killed, and that is one of the most extreme settings with the worst Templar abuses. You are on the extreme fringes with your suggestions towards Templars yet paint them as though they are all extreme towards Mages. Ironic. 

 

 

I've come up with no better solution because I have no better information since DA2, which didn't include the kind of details necessary to craft an entirely new society (I also don't see why it's my job to come up with a solution, since I didn't start the war).

 

Neither did the Templars, first of all. Whether righteously or not, the Mages begun the war. 

 

It seemed from your information you had book knowledge, but perhaps you do not. At any rate, my point is mainly that you are acting like there are easy solutions. "It's not my responsibility" is a fine answer for someone so intent upon villfying those who see it as their responsibility. 

 

 

I'm not arguing for no protection for mages whatsoever, I'm only arguing for siding with them and against the templars (I also don't really think there are any worse solutions that I can see).

 

You're not just arguing this - you're arguing that no Templars could be honorable, good, moderate, or worthwhile. You are painting them all with a black brush. 

[Keroko]

I think dwarves might still have a connection to the Fade, just a very heavily suppressed one. They can still operate in it just as well as humans or elves, after all.

 

The dwarves have a connection to the Fade. That has been proven several times. It's just that it's a whole lot weaker. I believe you might still have a point that further investigation is needed to determine whether or not this connection can be artificially stunted to the point where magic is no longer possible, but you might have to be ready to accept disappointment give that that's supposed to have happened over generations.

 

Has it? Huh, overlooked that a bunch. Could you name one or two of these instances?

 

I don't particularly see "dwarves can enter the fade under certain circumstances" as evidence of a connection. Demons can enter our world as well, given the circumstances, despite having no connection to ours.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Has it? Huh, overlooked that a bunch. Could you name one or two of these instances?

Basically every time Oghren, Varric, or a dwarven warden goes into the Fade without taking their bodies with them is evidence of this.

[General TSAR]

I wonder what's her views concerning the Right of Annulment? Not the one invoked in Kirkwall but the one invoked in Fereldan.

[Xilizhra]

She was never given the chance in Asunder. Lord Seeker Lambert wrote his letter of intent based partially on Leliana's involvement and perhaps this assumption, but no such refusal was made that I remember. Where does this notion come from? 

I was under the impression that there was a timeskip before the epilogue, as it had taken some time for everyone to get to Andoral's Reach, and Lambert had made his decision based on the Divine's.

 

 

No. The Mages rebelled; they went first. That's like saying the North perpetuated an act of aggression against the South after they rebelled at Fort Sumnter. It's not really sensible. The Mages are the ones who wanted to change the status quo, thus they are the aggressors (whether they are righteous, rebels, or somewhere in between is up to interpretation of course). They are the ones who "began" it. By any measure you choose, in terms of what is happening now with the Circles, the mages started it. They were pushed by Templar policies, Chantry and common indifference, and their own extremists' plots, but they began us down this path.

The mages seceded from the Chantry. The templars then attacked them of their own accord.

Also, there were no Circle extremists with any power. The ones who deliberately attacked civilians like the Resolutionists could be considered such, but certainly not Fiona and the like.

 

 

What if you find there are no good resources available and no easy options? What if you find the solution is not quite so simple as you hoped and if every path brings some evil?

I already have several preliminary plans in mind if you're interested in them. And in all situations, all I can do is my best.

 

 

Not nice compared to the norms Templars generally imposed against the Mages until recently, and you villify them. They accepted even mages who had turned apostate back into the Circle and rarely imposed sanctions. We have seen escaped (and returned) Mages even in DA2/Kirkwall who were accepted back into the Circle, not made Tranquil or killed, and that is one of the most extreme settings with the worst Templar abuses. You are on the extreme fringes with your suggestions towards Templars yet paint them as though they are all extreme towards Mages. Ironic. 

They weren't at war before. This is a wartime situation now. And every templar is a soldier, as opposed to the mages, almost all of whom are civilians.

 

 

Neither did the Templars, first of all. Whether righteously or not, the Mages begun the war. 

 

It seemed from your information you had book knowledge, but perhaps you do not. At any rate, my point is mainly that you are acting like there are easy solutions. "It's not my responsibility" is a fine answer for someone so intent upon villfying those who see it as their responsibility. 

The mages did not declare war on the Chantry, the templars declared war on the mages. This is a war started by templars and because of templars.

 

And I do have book knowledge. And despite it not being my responsibility, I'm going to take it on anyway.

 

 

You're not just arguing this - you're arguing that no Templars could be honorable, good, moderate, or worthwhile. You are painting them all with a black brush. 

If they wish to prove this, then I give them every chance to defect and join us. The proof will be, as they say, in the pudding.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I wonder what's her views concerning the Right of Annulment? Not the one invoked in Kirkwall but the one invoked in Fereldan.

It depends on whether the assertion that mages outside the Tower are killed is true (since she's managed to pretty well remove herself from the Tower apparently.) I don't think she's likely to object to killing everything in a Tower that's already completely fallen. Killing mages outside the Tower who could well be taken alive just seems a bit excessive, though.

[General TSAR]

It depends on whether the assertion that mages outside the Tower are killed is true (since she's managed to pretty well remove herself from the Tower apparently.) I don't think she's likely to object to killing everything in a Tower that's already completely fallen. Killing mages outside the Tower who could well be taken alive just seems a bit excessive, though.

Yeah, that's my thoughts too.

 

I could also see her being best rivals with Greagoir.

[Keroko]

If they wish to prove this, then I give them every chance to defect and join us. The proof will be, as they say, in the pudding.

 

This is hilariously Meredith-like thinking. "If you aren't on my side, you're evil."

[viperidae]

Can we stop the personal jabs, please? It's honestly getting uncomfortable reading this thread at the moment

[Xilizhra]

This is hilariously Meredith-like thinking. "If you aren't on my side, you're evil."

The trouble is that they're actually at war with me...

[Kirikou]

Gonna pipe in a bit. All Circle Mages are trained for war, they know damage spells because Circles are more than a place to segregate mages, they are weapons in times of Blights or other major conflicts.

[General TSAR]

Gonna pipe in a bit. All Circle Mages are trained for war, they know damage spells because Circles are more than a place to segregate mages, they are weapons in times of Blights or other major conflicts.

Good point and love that avatar. 

[Keroko]

The trouble is that they're actually at war with me...

 

As are the mages. Both sides attack the Inquisition on sight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Gonna pipe in a bit. All Circle Mages are trained for war, they know damage spells because Circles are more than a place to segregate mages, they are weapons in times of Blights or other major conflicts.

I thought a bunch of them were healers, instead?

[Xilizhra]

As are the mages. Both sides attack the Inquisition on sight.

I thought that Harding just killed both sides on sight of her own accord, but regardless. If I do indeed get an option to solve the issue diplomatically by contacting the templars and saying "Hi, this might sound strange, but I need the mages to give me the world's most important hand job, and since I'll need an incentive for them to do that, I need you to call off your war and stop trying to recapture them? Kthx," I'll do that. I just doubt it'll be possible.

[The Elder King]

I thought that Harding just killed both sides on sight of her own accord, but regardless. If I do indeed get an option to solve the issue diplomatically by contacting the templars and saying "Hi, this might sound strange, but I need the mages to give me the world's most important hand job, and since I'll need an incentive for them to do that, I need you to call off your war and stop trying to recapture them? Kthx," I'll do that. I just doubt it'll be possible.

Spoiler for certain streams:

Spoiler

the first time you go to The Hintelrands you fight both factions. You have to kill both mages and templars.

[Xilizhra]

Spoiler for certain streams:

Spoiler

the first time you go to The Hintelrands you fight both factions. You have to kill both mages and templars.

Laaaame.

 

Oh well. It can't be as bad as Best Served Cold.

[Keroko]

I thought that Harding just killed both sides on sight of her own accord, but regardless. If I do indeed get an option to solve the issue diplomatically by contacting the templars and saying "Hi, this might sound strange, but I need the mages to give me the world's most important hand job, and since I'll need an incentive for them to do that, I need you to call off your war and stop trying to recapture them? Kthx," I'll do that. I just doubt it'll be possible.

 

Not really Harding I'm talking about, I'm talking about encountering mages and templars in the game. The roaming NPC's of both sides will attack you on sight. One side will probably stop when you pick their side, but before that? Both sides are ready to clobber you.

 

 

I thought a bunch of them were healers, instead?

 

Sure, but even those know some attack spells, if Wynne is any indication.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sure, but even those know some attack spells, if Wynne is any indication.

Fair. But the fact remains that they're useful for things other than killing.

[Keroko]

Fair. But the fact remains that they're useful for things other than killing.

 

True. Heck, I can find a non-combat application for almost every spell in the long list of mage spells.

 

Laaaame.

 

Oh well. It can't be as bad as Best Served Cold.

 

You're called "the herald of Andraste."

 

As in the herald of the prophet of the organization both sides of the war split away from. Violently.

 

It shouldn't come as a surprise that neither side is quite ready to roll out the red carpet for you.