1757 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

@TheCreeper:  Why's that?  Because she disagrees with how you see things?

[eyezonlyii]

one could just do the registration thing. Every person who is born a mage gets a phylactory made, then they spend the first few years of their lives in a boarding school like situation, with breaks to see their families every so often. Then as they grow older, more options made available: military service, court appointments, and the like. There could even be a branch in smaller villages and such to station a mage or two as healers or whatever with a complement of Templars as well. 

[GipsyDangeresque]

The problem with tweaking the Circle NOW... is the outcry.

 

Vivienne makes it clear that after Anders... the Nobility throughout Thedas and the commoners wanted something done about the mages... so, the Templars did something (the WRONG something). 

 

Now the commoners and nobles are terrified... the Templars are militarized... the Chantry has been rendered largely impotent... and the mages are violent radicals. 

 

None of them are worth anything anymore... the Inquisition needs to steamroll and rebuild.

 

Steamrolling and rebuilding is actually going to be pretty violently radical.

 

The mages will have your back in that regard.

[SilentCid]

Are they? It seemed more of a choice going by the games, although you could torture somebody into accepting.

Anyway, I'm not against training, I'm against stripping them of basic rights for no good reason.

 

Yeah some do it by calling out to demons so that they can use their powers. Others times just by what I said just being constantly in contact with the fade can lead to increased risk of demonic possessions.

[Nerevar-as]

What the writers seem to be missing is that it IS an issue of human rights, and that's not something where many people will make concessions, because any step taken down that road is one step too much.

And if they want to make magic really dangerous in DA 2, having every other mage reduced to a thug with delusions of grandeur wasn't the way, because the problem was with the person, not magic itself.

[Medhia_Nox]

@GispyDangeresque:  I'm being hyperbolic. 

 

The Templars and Mages will be given exactly one chance to co-operate and join the Inquisition.

 

Then - they will be given exactly one chance to get out of my way if they don't want to co-operate. 

 

Then - if they persist in getting in my way - I will mow them down.

 

I have this Breach thing you see... and it's going to eat the world if I spend my time fighting stupid conflicts of pride.

[Lanavis]

Long mage post coming up.

 

Personally, I think a huge part of the topic of "The Mage Problem" is always framed as two polar extremes: it's either complete freedom for mages or total restriction of mages. I think this does the reality (or fiction, in this case ;p ) of the situation a huge disservice.

 

We need to keep in mind that we're only ever experiencing these groups within games which tell stories...and stories revolve around conflict. Y'know what I think the average mage is actually like? Probably like that guy hiding in the cupboard while Uldred ravaged the Circle in Fereldan, or that Sweeney guy who complained about his failing eyesight. Does that mean all mages are bland? No, of course not. But we're seeing the MOST bombastic personalities because the writers aren't going to design followers that are boring. People that get things done tend to have strong personalities.

 

This problem is particularly present in DA2 - that game went out of its way to portray mages as lunatics bent on world domination. Despite his issues, Anders is a good example of why this doesn't necessarily apply. He was staunchly opposed to the Circle, but he was also staunchly opposed to Blood Magic and working with demons - he understood the risks all too well. In other words, not necessarily every apostate is a maleficar and not every Circle mage is free of demonic influence. Furthermore, it doesn't take blood magic to encourage a tyrannical abuse of power or great destruction (again, see Anders). DA2 skews this because almost every mage we meet is in some way corrupted, and I think that makes it seem worse than it is. I THINK Gaider has said he regretted going that far on it (no proof, but I vaguely recall this), but they needed to make the threat of magic real. Otherwise, it's just a straightforward human rights issue with no nuance to it. I think the mage-templar conflict is complicated and lacks easy answers BY DESIGN.

 

Similarly, judging the Dalish mages solely by the actions of Merrill, Zathrian, and Velanna is ridiculous. Those are three individuals that exist as part of a huge culture that spans an entire continent in many unconnected groups. To be sure, they all made poor decisions, but it wasn't because they were mages; it was because of their situations. Zathrian acted out of sadness and anger, Velanna the same, and Merrill obsession with the past (that's my assessment, anyway) and commitment to her people. I'm not really saying that excuses their actions, and I'm not interested in labeling them as good or bad – I'm just saying that they are probably not representative of the Dalish. I really, REALLY hope we get a Dalish mage companion that's more nuanced and less nuts than we've seen so far in a future installment.

 

Personally, I think the best situation would be a largely secular Circle system that gave significant control to the mages, and the Templar Order maintained its presence as both protectors (a role that the games have de-emphasized but should not be forgotten, I think) and internal police officers for mages. I say secular because the way the Chantry preaches about magic being evil is, in my opinion, directly tied to the mistreatment and abuses of the mages. One need not be an Andrastian to learn the techniques. Anyway, the Circles would serve as centers of learning and training for nascent mages as well as resources for any mage or those in need of magical aid/resources/services. They need not be framed as a prison.

 

But I do think it should be compulsory. Why? Because magic is very dangerous and gives lots of power to very flawed individuals, as well as opening them up to the dangers of the Fade. They NEED guidance so they can control their powers safely, I think. I would leave any culture (see: Dalish) that trains its mages in its own way out of it because the point is to make sure mages aren't ticking time bombs. Dalish with magic are paired with a Keeper to train them right away.

 

But aren't all mages ticking time bombs? Well...yes, in a way, but I don't think it's fair to weight that too heavily when discussing their fundamental rights. Just because a person might abuse something is no excuse for cruelty and injustice that, ultimately, make that abuse / possession even more likely. To pull from another nerdy medium, I cite Jean Grey's quote from the first X-Men movie when asked by Senator Kelly whether or not mutants were dangerous. “I'm afraid that's an unfair question, Senator Kelly. After all, the wrong person behind the wheel of a car can be dangerous.” Kelly says, “Well, we do license people to drive.” Jean responds by saying, “Yes, but not to live.”

 

Thus it is with mages, I think.

I mostly agree with this. I believe Circles should be compulsory for mages up to a certain age (e.g. 18 years old). And for Circles to be more like boarding schools, which mages are allowed to leave alone from at will as long as they return before curfew, don't skip classes, and are over a certain age, such as 11 years of age. Prior to that there should be Templars or other mages on hand to take younger mages out on regular (maybe thrice weekly field trips) to the local towns (to familiarize the mages with the townsfolk and vice versa) and to other local areas, such as the woods for nature classes or the lake for swimming fun. I would also leave the Dalish alone.

[Super Drone]

 

But it's funny how casteless dwarves suffer more abuse than mages, yet you don't see people claiming for their justice. No one adopts them as their pet cause. Weird.

 

"intellectuals with powerful minds" are more like nerdy video-game players than "short, dirty people".

[AresKeith]

What the writers seem to be missing is that it IS an issue of human rights, and that's not something where many people will make concessions, because any step taken down that road is one step too much.

And if they want to make magic really dangerous in DA 2, having every other mage reduced to a thug with delusions of grandeur wasn't the way, because the problem was with the person, not magic itself.

 

You realize that's why they say magic is dangerous right? Along with demons always trying to possess them

[Nerevar-as]

one could just do the registration thing. Every person who is born a mage gets a phylactory made, then they spend the first few years of their lives in a boarding school like situation, with breaks to see their families every so often. Then as they grow older, more options made available: military service, court appointments, and the like. There could even be a branch in smaller villages and such to station a mage or two as healers or whatever with a complement of Templars as well.

If a mage wants to go back to the family work after training, s/he should be able to, too.

[GipsyDangeresque]

one could just do the registration thing. Every person who is born a mage gets a phylactory made, then they spend the first few years of their lives in a boarding school like situation, with breaks to see their families every so often. Then as they grow older, more options made available: military service, court appointments, and the like. There could even be a branch in smaller villages and such to station a mage or two as healers or whatever with a complement of Templars as well. 

 

A better system would be to keep the circle system as it is, minus any capability of the Templars to perform Tranquility or Annulment. Until you take your Harrowing (which is optional.) If you succeed at your Harrowing... you're free to go live your life. Maybe yearly check-ins would be nice. If you don't want to go through the Harrowing, then you remain in the Circle for your life. You can also just opt to remain in the Circle if you like it there and want to teach or just live with fellow mages.

 

Templars, in the absence of having so many mages to guard/watch, would instead be an order of globe-trotting criminal mage hunters. In this case, the crimes being killing/abusing/hurting innocent people with magic. Not like they are now, where the crimes of an apostate mage are "living in the wrong place."

[TheCreeper]

@TheCreeper:  Why's that?  Because she disagrees with how you see things?

No because she basically acts like the mages where whining and didn't realize how good they had it. Even in the best of circles they where being kept in a prison and there was rampant sexual abuse by the Templars, and zero implication any of the circles where doing anything to improve that.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Lanavis: And because of what the mages have just done - that kind of reform is now going to be centuries away. 

 

I'd like to find out that Vivienne was actually REALLY close to having something like this starting to take off - and the rebellion crushed it.  It would frame her disdain for the rebellion nicely. 

 

@GipsyDangeresque:  The Harrowing should NEVER be optional.  What it should be - is properly prepared for.  Why they don't do this is another idiocy of the current Circles.

[sandalisthemaker]

VIVIENNE IS FABULOUS.

 

LOOOOOOOOVE HERRRRRRRRR!!!!

[Nerevar-as]

You realize that's why they say magic is dangerous right? Along with demons always trying to possess them

No more than any other person in a position of power.

[efd731]

Ahem, twas me that wrote that up.

 

But I absolutely agree with her.

and we appreciate it

[Medhia_Nox]

@Nerevar-as:  You know a lot of people that can practice mind control and create fire with their minds?

[mikeymoonshine]

 

Personally, I think the best situation would be a largely secular Circle system that gave significant control to the mages, and the Templar Order maintained its presence as both protectors (a role that the games have de-emphasized but should not be forgotten, I think) and internal police officers for mages. I say secular because the way the Chantry preaches about magic being evil is, in my opinion, directly tied to the mistreatment and abuses of the mages. One need not be an Andrastian to learn the techniques. Anyway, the Circles would serve as centers of learning and training for nascent mages as well as resources for any mage or those in need of magical aid/resources/services. They need not be framed as a prison.

 

But I do think it should be compulsory. Why? Because magic is very dangerous and gives lots of power to very flawed individuals, as well as opening them up to the dangers of the Fade. They NEED guidance so they can control their powers safely, I think. I would leave any culture (see: Dalish) that trains its mages in its own way out of it because the point is to make sure mages aren't ticking time bombs. Dalish with magic are paired with a Keeper to train them right away.

 

 

This is more or less the solution I feel is best but what do you think about mages who have completed their training?

[eyezonlyii]

@GipsyDangeresque:  The Harrowing should NEVER be optional. 

 

Why not? The Hawkes managed and every Dalish mage manage without it. I actually think the Harrowing should be done away with because there is no determining when someone is mentally ready for something like that. Essentially, they are getting put into the exact situation that everyone fears them for: a confrontation with a demon.

[Hellion Rex]

 

None of them are worth anything anymore... the Inquisition needs to steamroll and rebuild.

Yeah, pretty much this. I seriously think all we can do is annihilate the Old World system and build from the ground up.

[Medhia_Nox]

@eyezonliyii:  Mages are always in a confrontation with a demon.  As the Pride demon states clearly:  "True tests never end." 

Being a mage is the "true test" - not the Harrowing.

 

The Harrowing should be heavily trained for test NOT where Templars are prepared to cut you down right away - but where mages are prepared to enter the Fade to rescue you should it need.  Then - you go back to training for the Harrowing again.

 

You should never be allowed out of the tower until you pass your first Harrowing without assistance. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Okay, so is a large portion of the fanbase going to hate Viv for her opinion of the rebel mages?

 

IMO, I love her opinion.  It's refreshing, if nothing else, after what we got with Anders, and I feel that the mages aren't simply innocent, oppressed victims here.

[GipsyDangeresque]

@Lanavis: And because of what the mages have just done - that kind of reform is now going to be centuries away. 

 

I'd like to find out that Vivienne was actually REALLY close to having something like this starting to take off - and the rebellion crushed it.  It would frame her disdain for the rebellion nicely. 

 

@GipsyDangeresque:  The Harrowing should NEVER be optional.  What it should be - is properly prepared for.  Why they don't do this is another idiocy of the current Circles.

 

Why shouldn't it be optional? The alternative is constant scrutiny by Templars and living in a tower the rest of your life, and if you ever become an abomination you'll be put out of your misery.

 

The Harrowing is merely a very hefty "Driver's License test." Except in this case you're justifying your freedom by proving your resistance to demonic posession and temptation.

 

The Templars/Inquisition continue to function as a peace-keeping order combating/investigating alleged abuses of Magi power.

[Medhia_Nox]

@sandalisthemaker:  I was unsure about Vivienne till today.  She will absolutely be the "other mage" I travel through Thedas with. 

 

@GipsyDangeresque: You're aware your first year driving is one of the most dangerous years of your life?  And that over a million people die each year from motor vehicle accidents?   Yeah - let's keep the Harrowing required.

[mikeymoonshine]

What the writers seem to be missing is that it IS an issue of human rights, and that's not something where many people will make concessions, because any step taken down that road is one step too much.

And if they want to make magic really dangerous in DA 2, having every other mage reduced to a thug with delusions of grandeur wasn't the way, because the problem was with the person, not magic itself.

 

I don't think the writers are missing anything about human rights, the purposefully made it a moral dilemma by making the majority of the mages in DA2 completely corrupt. 

 

In reference to the dangers of magic. The point is that magic is more dangerous in the hands of someone who abuses it just like any power, there was a lot of abuse and misuse of power in DA2 and it wasn't just mages doing it.