You're called "the herald of Andraste."
As in the herald of the prophet of the organization both sides of the war split away from. Violently.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that neither side is quite ready to roll out the red carpet for you.
Well, the Chantry hates the PC too, so I don't know how much sense that would make... but I suppose it might happen.
I find it highly unlikely no such solution exists. We know a connection to the fade is neither essential for life nor emotion, as the dwarves have neither yet live, breathe, laugh and cry the same as we do. The only real difference between us and them is that they don't dream, so I believe further investigation is needed in that area.
Oghrens Fade prison shows Dwarves are connected still. Lyrium seems to be able to block the Fade... I wonder if anyones tried to see how humans and elves react when put in a Lyrium based prison?
Oghrens Fade prison shows Dwarves are connected still. Lyrium seems to be able to block the Fade... I wonder if anyones tried to see how humans and elves react when put in a Lyrium based prison?
Fade prison? You mean during Broken Circle? I don't really consider that a connection to the Fade. Demons are capable of entering our world when special circumstances are met as well, despite none of them having a connection to our world. The Broken Circle scenario just seems like a reverse of that scenario.
True. Heck, I can find a non-combat application for almost every spell in the long list of mage spells.
Yeah, probably. It's just that the healers are the mages who are most likely to be allowed to use their powers in a non-combat situation, and the ones most likely to be specifically trained for one
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You're called "the herald of Andraste."
As in the herald of the prophet of the organization both sides of the war split away from. Violently.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that neither side is quite ready to roll out the red carpet for you.
That's not because they hate Andraste herself. The fact is I think they all like Andraste and her Maker. They just disagree as to whether or not the Circle system follows from what she said.
Fade prison? You mean during Broken Circle? I don't really consider that a connection to the Fade. Demons are capable of entering our world when special circumstances are met as well, despite none of them having a connection to our world. The Broken Circle scenario just seems like a reverse of that scenario.
The only people in Thedas with "a connection to the Fade" are mages. Normal humans and elves don't enter the fade when they dream(that's something only mages do). And every normal human or elf has as much capability of entering the Fade as a demon does entering Thedas. They requiring special circumstances to occur in order for it to be possible to cross the veil...
Dwarves are able to enter the fade using those same special circumstances. But the reason there aren't any dwarven mages isn't due to a lack of connection to the fade...
I find it highly unlikely no such solution exists. We know a connection to the fade is neither essential for life nor emotion, as the dwarves have neither yet live, breathe, laugh and cry the same as we do. The only real difference between us and them is that they don't dream, so I believe further investigation is needed in that area.
I don't know, Asunder implied to me that such a solution is a pipe dream. I wish for it, too, but Pharamond didn't seem to think it existed. Maybe the dwarves are the answer; that's very interesting.
I was under the impression that there was a timeskip before the epilogue, as it had taken some time for everyone to get to Andoral's Reach, and Lambert had made his decision based on the Divine's.
There may or may not have been a timeskip, but we have no proof the Divine had no intention to go after the Mages. Even if the Divine didn't personally want to, I don't see how she wouldn't be overthrown (or assassinated) for such a decision, and she isn't the whole Chantry. The Chantry is likely not cool with rogue mages out there. Nor are independent governments. Nor are the Templars, of course.
The mages seceded from the Chantry. The templars then attacked them of their own accord.
Kind of. Yes, the Templars decided they too should have independent authority (taking a page out of the Mage playbook, I guess), or rather one Lord Seeker did and it flowed down the chain of command (let's not pretend this was a mutual decision or ignore the chain of command aspect of the Order).
We also don't know precisely what "attacks" happened. Did the Templars have order to kill Mages on sight? To try to return them to Circles? To annul Circles? Who gave the orders? Why? Were mages given any ways to surrender themselves peacefully? We have no idea what happened. But we do know that the mages made the first act of aggression - seceding - in this instance. Whether they had a reason to do so, with the new oppression in the Circles and the rising tensions (perpetuated by BOTH sides), is a topic I can see both sides on. However, they clearly acted first. Just because they seceded from the Chantry (since the Templars were not at that point an independent organization) doesn't mean they didn't act against the Order since the Order was obviously the branch of the Chantry that related to them.
Also, there were no Circle extremists with any power. The ones who deliberately attacked civilians like the Resolutionists could be considered such, but certainly not Fiona and the like.
This is not true. Many Senior Enchanters and even some First Enchanters were Libertarians. There's no reason to believe that there were not Circle extremists with power. And, even without power, they pushed things. Adrian, for example, didn't have particular power (though she did have the ear of many) but greatly pushed the situation. Mages may not have rebelled, the slaughter at the conclave may no have happened, without her.
I already have several preliminary plans in mind if you're interested in them. And in all situations, all I can do is my best.
Sure. I will say, by the way, I generally don't tend pro-Templar, and I fully expect that if forced to a choice with no moderate find a middle ground or frustrated "**** them all" option (both of which I might take over choosing a side), I will likely side with the Mages first. What I object to is painting the Templars as ill-intentioned wholesale or acting like the choice is simple or that the Templars aren't in existence to solve a real and complicated problem.
They weren't at war before. This is a wartime situation now. And every templar is a soldier, as opposed to the mages, almost all of whom are civilians.
No. The Mages gathered, they seceded, they made a choice to rebel, and they know how to fight. Many of them are certainly not civilians.
The mages did not declare war on the Chantry, the templars declared war on the mages. This is a war started by templars and because of templars.
This is a war started by the mages rebelling against the Circles. You don't get to declare yourself suddenly independent without it being the same thing as declaring a war. An uprising, a rebellion, done through force and violence (as this one was)...no matter how righteous means a war. That is just factual. I can't even imagine the mages are as naive as your statement implies.
If they wish to prove this, then I give them every chance to defect and join us. The proof will be, as they say, in the pudding.
The proof you demand would likely be a reversal of their vow (to both protect and control mages) and even an honorable Templar would not be able to meet the demands you would require.
Gonna pipe in a bit. All Circle Mages are trained for war, they know damage spells because Circles are more than a place to segregate mages, they are weapons in times of Blights or other major conflicts.
I thought a bunch of them were healers, instead?
I think that strong healers are relatively rare, and they'd be able to conjure a basic offensive spell as well. Offensive spells seem to be easier. The healing mages we've seen have all also been able to conjure offensive magic (not so much the other way), though different mages seem to have different natural talents.
The only people in Thedas with "a connection to the Fade" are mages. Normal humans and elves don't enter the fade when they dream(that's something only mages do).
Yes they do. It's made very clear that everyone in Thedas who dreams is going to the Fade.
That's not because they hate Andraste herself. The fact is I think they all like Andraste and her Maker. They just disagree as to whether or not the Circle system follows from what she said.
Oh, I realize that. It's just that when people say "Andraste" the first thing that pops into many people's minds is "the Chantry."
Add to that you being the leader of the Inquisition, the very first organization that rose up to battle the dangers of magic, and I can understand the mages being more than a little paranoid when you appear on the battlefield.
The only people in Thedas with "a connection to the Fade" are mages. Normal humans and elves don't enter the fade when they dream(that's something only mages do). And every normal human or elf has as much capability of entering the Fade as a demon does entering Thedas. They requiring special circumstances to occur in order for it to be possible to cross the veil...
Dwarves are able to enter the fade using those same special circumstances. But the reason there aren't any dwarven mages isn't due to a lack of connection to the fade...
Normal humans and elves do enter the fade when they sleep, that's where dreams come from (World of Thedas page 131 is quite clear on that). They're just not conscious of it and can't interact with it. The connection of a mage is not unique to them, it's just many times stronger than that of a normal person.
Dwarves are the exception to this.
@berriah; The circle's secession was not an act of aggression. An act of aggression - as defined in the UN charter is - "the use of armed force by a State against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of another State, [...]". I would substitute entity for state in this situation, but "armed force" is the important part. The mages took a vote at Andoral's Reach to separate the circle from the Chantry. And a declaration of independence is not a declaration of war either. The templars abandoning the Chantry to take the mages back by force begins the mage-templar war. What they did was an act of aggression. It comes across that you're twisting terms and definitions to fit your opinion.
@berriah; The circle's secession was not an act of aggression. An act of aggression - as defined in the UN charter is - "the use of armed force by a State against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of another State, [...]". I would substitute entity for state in this situation, but "armed force" is the important part. The mages took a vote at Andoral's Reach to separate the circle from the Chantry. And a declaration of independence is not a declaration of war either. The templars abandoning the Chantry to take the mages back by force begins the mage-templar war. What they did was an act of aggression. It comes across that you're twisting terms and definitions to fit your opinion.
You do realize that the mages who voted at Andoral's Reach used an "armed force" in order to get to Andoral's Reach, right?
You do realize that the mages who voted at Andoral's Reach used an "armed force" in order to get to Andoral's Reach, right?
You do realize that the Divine helped them escape?
@berriah; The circle's secession was not an act of aggression. An act of aggression - as defined in the UN charter is - "the use of armed force by a State against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of another State, [...]". I would substitute entity for state in this situation, but "armed force" is the important part. The mages took a vote at Andoral's Reach to separate the circle from the Chantry. And a declaration of independence is not a declaration of war either. The templars abandoning the Chantry to take the mages back by force begins the mage-templar war. What they did was an act of aggression. It comes across that you're twisting terms and definitions to fit your opinion.
They were an armed force, and they used their arms to escape. I also wasn't aware the UN charter applied to Thedas. The reality is that they separated themselves by force, with immediacy, and were ready to defend their independence by force. That is, based upon the status quo at the time, an act of aggression. The Mages were ready to attack and unwilling to be controlled; as they are seen as walking weapons, I don't think you can blame the Order or the people in general for seeing this rebellion as an act of aggression. I also don't think you can necessarily blame the mages for being afraid and doing what they had to do, but I do blame the extremist mages who pushed this agenda and forced it on the many. I think that ties into Vivi's basic opinion on the matter, and I think she's right. The extremist mages really pushed a situation as much as, if not more than, the Templar Order and made it much, much worse.
You do realize that the Divine helped them escape?
Not officially. Secretly. And in the heat of the moment, not in some grand master plan.
She did not release them, as she does not have this authority. People are acting like Justinia V disbanded the Circles and said, "Let mages be free." She didn't. Most templars and commoners have no idea she even sent people to help the mages - this is not known. And if it were known (perhaps through Seeker Lambert's letter), Justinia would lose favor with the common people and nobles who fear the mages and do not want them to just be free.
Justinia V also has no real political authority. The Circles are controlled by the Chantry, but the various governments in which they dwell also rely on them and depend on their continuance and aren't happy to see them gone and the mages loose, I wouldn't imagine.
You do realize that the Divine helped them escape?
And? The mages still used an armed force against the Sovereignty of the Chantry by attacking the Templars in their escape to Andoral's Reach.
The reason that's a fact is because Divine Justinia V never went public in her wish to set the mages free...
Oh, I realize that. It's just that when people say "Andraste" the first thing that pops into many people's minds is "the Chantry."
Add to that you being the leader of the Inquisition, the very first organization that rose up to battle the dangers of magic, and I can understand the mages being more than a little paranoid when you appear on the battlefield.
This isn't the original Inquisition. The original Inquisition is what they're fighting. And when they started out, the Inquisition wasn't a bad group. They had a reputation for running a reign of terror, yes, but only because their attempts at being fair sometimes required them to rule in favor of a mage (or suspected mage) and sometimes required them to rule against a mage. Though yes, I can see why trying to revive that would have everyone side-eyeing you.
And? The mages still used an armed force against the Sovereignty of the Chantry by attacking the Templars in their escape to Andoral's Reach.
The reason that's a fact is because Divine Justinia V never went public in her wish to set the mages free...
The templars know what Justinia did by the end of Asunder, and the Order is part of the Chantry - the Chantry can't commit an act of aggression against itself. They can't use an escape the Divine, not only approved, but set in motion, to say the mages started the war.
This isn't the original Inquisition. The original Inquisition is what they're fighting. And when they started out, the Inquisition wasn't a bad group. They had a reputation for running a reign of terror, yes, but only because their attempts at being fair sometimes required them to rule in favor of a mage (or suspected mage) and sometimes required them to rule against a mage. Though yes, I can see why trying to revive that would have everyone side-eyeing you.
How long ago exactly was the original inquistion anyways?
How long ago exactly was the original inquistion anyways?
Centuries, certainly. Maybe approaching a millennium. Certainly not millennia, as they were contemporary with the early Chantry and this is their ninth century.
The templars know what Justinia did by the end of Asunder, and the Order is part of the Chantry - the Chantry can't commit an act of aggression against itself. They can't use an escape the Divine, not only approved, but set in motion, to say the mages started the war.
Justinia V, as the Divine, speaks for the Chantry. But if she takes an action in secret, that makes said action not an act of the Divine, and thus it's not an act of which the Chantry approves.
And while Lambert knows what Justinia did, it's highly debatable as to whether or not the Templars as a whole do. The Templars, as an organization, are likely in the dark like the rest of Thedas, and those that left with Lambert did so due to Justinia V's public silence and inaction on the situation, more than anything else. If the Templars as a whole knew what Justinia V did, the whole of Thedas knew what she did... And if the whole of Thedas knew, Justinia V wouldn't have survived 3 days to "broker peace" with the mages, let alone 3 years...
Yes they do. It's made very clear that everyone in Thedas who dreams is going to the Fade.
They don't go to the Fade. Their mind skips into and out of the Fade. But they aren't in the Fade the same way a mage is. They are more like window shoppers looking into the store from outside while a mage is in the store buying the fancy shoes.
If it worked any other way then people would get possessed by demons every time they went to sleep which obviously doesn't happen.
They don't go to the Fade. Their mind skips into and out of the Fade. But they aren't in the Fade the same way a mage is. They are more like window shoppers looking into the store from outside while a mage is in the store buying the fancy shoes.
If it worked any other way then people would get possessed by demons every time they went to sleep which obviously doesn't happen.
World of Thedas is quite specific on this. The minds of dreamers enter the fade, but they're not lucid. And since demonic possession requires some form of agreement from the victim, it's impossible for demons to posses a dreamer, as they can't directly interact with the dreamer.
Mages are different. Their magic allows them to remain lucid in the fade, which opens them up to corruption.
@berriah; The circle's secession was not an act of aggression. An act of aggression - as defined in the UN charter is - "the use of armed force by a State against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of another State, [...]". I would substitute entity for state in this situation, but "armed force" is the important part. The mages took a vote at Andoral's Reach to separate the circle from the Chantry. And a declaration of independence is not a declaration of war either. The templars abandoning the Chantry to take the mages back by force begins the mage-templar war. What they did was an act of aggression. It comes across that you're twisting terms and definitions to fit your opinion.
Your right and it is more than that.
The creation of the circles was mutually done by the Chantry, the Mages and the Templars. All sides agreed to what would be involved and expected by each group and the Mages then willing went to the circles.
When the Chantry and the Templars did not live up too their end of the agreement the Mages decided to vote on leaving the circles which they had the right to do. It was then that the Chantry refused to let them go and took up arms against the Mages. It was the Chantry that used forced and tried to imprison or kill the Mages, so the Mages then fought back against the Chantry aggression.
Prior to the Circles the mages were confined to the chantries, the last time we had large numbers of mages outside the Chantry's control were the years after the defeat of the Old Tevinter Imperium when there was apparently chaos and the old Inquisition (which became the Templars and Seekers) actively hunted down mages....seems like the Templars just went back to the old system of dealing with mages, if there is no way to confine large numbers of mages then it would seem their only other choice is a more bloody one.
Its seems like we have come full circle to the time before the Andrastian Circles and we are back to those times of chaos.
The only people in Thedas with "a connection to the Fade" are mages. Normal humans and elves don't enter the fade when they dream(that's something only mages do). And every normal human or elf has as much capability of entering the Fade as a demon does entering Thedas. They requiring special circumstances to occur in order for it to be possible to cross the veil...
Dwarves are able to enter the fade using those same special circumstances. But the reason there aren't any dwarven mages isn't due to a lack of connection to the fade...
Most living things have a connection to the fade. Humans and elves always enter the fade when dreaming, mage or not. the difference is Mundanes aren't consciously aware their in the fade when dreaming.
Dwarves do not have a connection to the fade which is why they don't dream.
Entering the Fade while concious has special circumstance for everyone but dreamers who can enter the fade at will. Normal mages need a metric ton of lyrium. while for a mundane it's unknown.
just how everyone enters the fade in the broken circle is unknown it's not a fade breach no-one physically enters it. only our minds. we can speculate but will never know. the only thing we do know is when we exit the fade it appears we were asleep.
The templars know what Justinia did by the end of Asunder, and the Order is part of the Chantry - the Chantry can't commit an act of aggression against itself. They can't use an escape the Divine, not only approved, but set in motion, to say the mages started the war.
Nothing at the end of Asunder suggests the Templars, in general, know what she has done. Additionally, she did NOT officially approve escape. She helped in secret - calling the Templars to meet with her and sending one agent. She didn't issue a proclamation, nor would I expect her to. She helped them get out, but odds are she didn't officially support the escape and urged them back in public. Just because we know Justinia V is sympathetic to the mages doesn't mean that was an act of the Chantry itself.
Lord Seeker Lambert has "put together" what she has done, and if his note is released to the general Templar Order, they know what she has done but also that she has done it in secret and treachery, not using her office but trickery. I don't know to what degree the Templar Order knows about this, but it certainly was not an order issued down to them from their superiors or the Chantry at large.
The Chantry and the Order are linked, but they are not the same. We see this in DA2, where the Grand Cleric says she cannot interfere with the Circle. Perhaps the Divine has more leeway but only if she uses it in her official capacity, which she does not because she knows she cannot. There is a reason she acts in secret. The Divine can give Seeker Lambert orders, but only orders that fit within his vow. Releasing the mages would not be such an order.
I seriously doubt the general populace or any large group of Templars knew about it immediately. Justinia V lived too long and remained in her position too long for that. I assume there were whispers but uncertainties.
Justinia V, as the Divine, speaks for the Chantry. But if she takes an action in secret, that makes said action not an act of the Divine, and thus it's not an act of which the Chantry approves.
And while Lambert knows what Justinia did, it's highly debatable as to whether or not the Templars as a whole do. The Templars, as an organization, are likely in the dark like the rest of Thedas, and those that left with Lambert did so due to Justinia V's public silence and inaction on the situation, more than anything else. If the Templars as a whole knew what Justinia V did, the whole of Thedas knew what she did... And if the whole of Thedas knew, Justinia V wouldn't have survived 3 days to "broker peace" with the mages, let alone 3 years...
Right, this was not an act of the Chantry. And clearly, the whole of Thedas did not know.
Your right and it is more than that.
The creation of the circles was mutually done by the Chantry, the Mages and the Templars. All sides agreed to what would be involved and expected by each group and the Mages then willing went to the circles.
When the Chantry and the Templars did not live up too their end of the agreement the Mages decided to vote on leaving the circles which they had the right to do. It was then that the Chantry refused to let them go and took up arms against the Mages. It was the Chantry that used forced and tried to imprison or kill the Mages, so the Mages then fought back against the Chantry aggression.
I do not believe the Neverran Accord gave one side the right to disband the Circles, nor do I believe mages were an equal party in the Neverran Accord. They went to the Circles because their other choice was to be hunted, not because the Mages agreed per se. According to every source I can find, the Circles were created between the original Inquisition (which became the Seekers and the Templars) and the Chantry, with the Mages not being given a particular vote or equal share.
http://dragonage.wik...Nevarran_Accord
What Lord Seeker Lambert points out about the Nevarran Accord is that, without it, without the mages in the Circles, under the care of the Templars and the Chantry, there is no reason for the Seekers and the Templars to be united with the Chantry, as their original mission was the persecution of mages and the protection of the people from the powers of magic. They agreed to instead cloister and protect the mages, as well as protect the world from the mages, in the Circles, at the behest of the Chantry, but if their purpose there is forfeit, they will break free and become mage-hunters again. As they were originally formed to do, out of need.
What the mages did by rebelling - and what Justinia V secretly helped them do - was ensure they had no safe place to surrender to. The Nevarran Accord was created to protect mages, while still checking the problem of illegal magic (all magic being illegal at that time and still illegal outside of the Circles that now don't exist). They also made themselves law-breakers, for a mage practicing any kind of magic outside of the guidance of the Circle is illegal.
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