1757 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

You're called "the herald of Andraste."

As in the herald of the prophet of the organization both sides of the war split away from. Violently.

It shouldn't come as a surprise that neither side is quite ready to roll out the red carpet for you.

I feel I must draw attention to the distinction between the religion and the institution. I'd bet my boots most Templars and many Mages are still followers of Andraste, they just don't tote the Chantry line on the interpretation of her teachings. Even in previous games, only a few rebellious Mages express outright hostility to Andraste rather than the Chantry, more take issue with the way they apply her teachings.

[Xilizhra]

There may or may not have been a timeskip, but we have no proof the Divine had no intention to go after the Mages. Even if the Divine didn't personally want to, I don't see how she wouldn't be overthrown (or assassinated) for such a decision, and she isn't the whole Chantry. The Chantry is likely not cool with rogue mages out there. Nor are independent governments. Nor are the Templars, of course.

Such may have been the case, but I'd be happy to fight anyone who tried as well. I am certain that the Divine wouldn't have done so, though, given that she was working to stop the templars near the end of Asunder.

 

 

We also don't know precisely what "attacks" happened. Did the Templars have order to kill Mages on sight? To try to return them to Circles? To annul Circles? Who gave the orders? Why? Were mages given any ways to surrender themselves peacefully? We have no idea what happened. But we do know that the mages made the first act of aggression - seceding - in this instance. Whether they had a reason to do so, with the new oppression in the Circles and the rising tensions (perpetuated by BOTH sides), is a topic I can see both sides on. However, they clearly acted first. Just because they seceded from the Chantry (since the Templars were not at that point an independent organization) doesn't mean they didn't act against the Order since the Order was obviously the branch of the Chantry that related to them. 

They always had a reason to secede since the Circle's inception; current tensions (which only the templars had the power to act on) just give more of one.

 

 

This is not true. Many Senior Enchanters and even some First Enchanters were Libertarians. There's no reason to believe that there were not Circle extremists with power. And, even without power, they pushed things. Adrian, for example, didn't have particular power (though she did have the ear of many) but greatly pushed the situation. Mages may not have rebelled, the slaughter at the conclave may no have happened, without her.

The Libertarian fraternity is not an extremist one. Wanting to escape crushing oppression is not and has never been extremist--it's like calling the PLO terrorists.

 

 

Sure. I will say, by the way, I generally don't tend pro-Templar, and I fully expect that if forced to a choice with no moderate find a middle ground or frustrated "**** them all" option (both of which I might take over choosing a side), I will likely side with the Mages first. What I object to is painting the Templars as ill-intentioned wholesale or acting like the choice is simple or that the Templars aren't in existence to solve a real and complicated problem. 

The templars deserve no middle ground, nor a voice in negotiations; they're police, not politicians. This is a matter between mages and the Chantry.

 

 

No. The Mages gathered, they seceded, they made a choice to rebel, and they know how to fight. Many of them are certainly not civilians. 

Some. Not most.

 

 

The proof you demand would likely be a reversal of their vow (to both protect and control mages) and even an honorable Templar would not be able to meet the demands you would require. 

Then tell me, what am I supposed to do with enemies in wartime who'll continue fighting as enemies?

[The Elder King]

Your right and it is more than that.
 
The creation of the circles was mutually done by the Chantry, the Mages and the Templars. All sides agreed to what would be involved and expected by each group and the Mages then willing went to the circles.
 
When the Chantry and the Templars did not live up too their end of the agreement the Mages decided to vote on leaving the circles which they had the right to do. It was then that the Chantry refused to let them go and took up arms against the Mages. It was the Chantry that used forced and tried to imprison or kill the Mages, so the Mages then fought back against the Chantry aggression.

What ?
The Chantry never forced The mages to stay. The first votes for secession were against The secession. The TEMPLARS tried in Asunder to stop The mages' vote. The CHANTRY, with The Divine, helped The mages escape The white spire. For this very reason, Lambert made The Accord null. How on earth The Chantry tried to stop The mages?

[ianvillan]

What ?
The Chantry never forced The mages to stay. The first votes for secession were against The secession. The TEMPLARS tried in Asunder to stop The mages' vote. The CHANTRY, with The Divine, helped The mages escape The white spire. For this very reason, Lambert made The Accord null. How on earth The Chantry tried to stop The mages?

 

As you said the Templars in Asunder took arms against the Mages because they were voting about secession. Why would the Mages even need the Divines help to escape the White spire if the Templars were allowing the Mages to leave.

 

It was the Mages aggression that turned the vote against staying in the circles, and it was the Templars refusal to allow Mages to leave the circles after the Vote that made the mages take up arms and fight back.

[wcholcombe]

As you said the Templars in Asunder took arms against the Mages because they were voting about secession. Why would the Mages even need the Divines help to escape the White spire if the Templars were allowing the Mages to leave.

 

It was the Mages aggression that turned the vote against staying in the circles, and it was the Templars refusal to allow Mages to leave the circles after the Vote that made the mages take up arms and fight back.

The templars took action for 2 reasons: 1) The person the mages were convening to interview was murdered and a mage was the suspect--wrong mage, but a mage all the same. 2) The mages had agreed that the only topic they would discuss was the ability to repair tranquility.  By bringing up another subject they violated the agreement.  3)  The mages previously voted against independence and even Adrian admits that they knew they weren't going win the vote for independence again which is the reason she murdered the elf to manipulate wynne and the rest of the conclave. 

 

The mages never took a vote.  The mages took up arms and rebelled to save Rhys who Adrian had manipulated into the situation he was in expressly to force Wynne to act against the templars.

[wcholcombe]

Such may have been the case, but I'd be happy to fight anyone who tried as well. I am certain that the Divine wouldn't have done so, though, given that she was working to stop the templars near the end of Asunder.

Based off of what we know about the beginning of DAI, she at the very least would have acted to bring them back into the fold.  I don't know that she would have pursued armed conflict as a first course of action.  Justiniana seems to be a concensus builder/negotiator. I think she would have used the situation of mages rebelling/leaving as an example for need to reform the circles.  IE the mages have a reason for doing what they are doing.

 

They always had a reason to secede since the Circle's inception; current tensions (which only the templars had the power to act on) just give more of one.

Considering they joined the circles originally for protections, doesn't sound like they always had reasons. Plus, as I have stated repeatedly, Rhys states that previously the circles had been a goo place to live. Heck, the first enchanter in Montsimmard throws finner banquets then the Empress of Orlais.

 

The Libertarian fraternity is not an extremist one. Wanting to escape crushing oppression is not and has never been extremist--it's like calling the PLO terrorists.

Not to go OT, but I agree, the PLO are terrorists   Adrian the head of the Libertarians murdered one of her fellow mages just to manipulate the vote that she and Fionna both knew they were going to lose. Extremist.

 

The templars deserve no middle ground, nor a voice in negotiations; they're police, not politicians. This is a matter between mages and the Chantry.

Not including the side that is at the heart of the primary issue is just asking for nothing to be resolved.  Plus, considering they are currently just as much rebels as the mages are, in order to bring them back into the fold they need a seat at the table.

 

Some. Not most.

 

 

Then tell me, what am I supposed to do with enemies in wartime who'll continue fighting as enemies?

Well, my approach in DAI is going to be to kill the belligerent hard liners on both sides and bring the remaining members who are open to intelligent negotiation to the table.  I will no more be showing favoritism to the mages then I will to the templars they are both in rebellion.

[efd731]

For some reason I can't quote, but to the guy who posted that the mages leaving wasn't an act of war, incorrect. The mages rebelling was an act of aggression, because one they broke the law, two every single Mage is a weapon, and three they had to illegally move through the lands they occupied. They weren't legally able to wander thedas at will, thus trespassing.

[berrieh]

Such may have been the case, but I'd be happy to fight anyone who tried as well. I am certain that the Divine wouldn't have done so, though, given that she was working to stop the templars near the end of Asunder.

 

 

The Divine wasn't working to stop the Templars. She was trying to be moderate, and a battle broke out. At that point, she was helping Wynne and perhaps a few others she knew escape immediate danger. At no point did the Divine suggest the Circles should be disbanded or mages should be freed - she helped in the midst of a situation she felt was out of control, using deceit and treachery as she could, and never taking an overt pro-mage side. This whole "The Divine let them go" argument doesn't hold water. The Divine is clearly swept up in the moment as much as anyone else and just trying to diffuse the situation as best she can. 

 

They always had a reason to secede since the Circle's inception; current tensions (which only the templars had the power to act on) just give more of one.

 

 

The Libertarian fraternity is not an extremist one. Wanting to escape crushing oppression is not and has never been extremist--it's like calling the PLO terrorists.

 

 

I don't know anything about the PLO, but I do know the vote to leave the Circle was pushed by Libertarians that were engaged in blood magic (some, not all, but the guy at the beginning did not seem to have acted alone), at least a few of whom likely colluded with the blood mage who attacked the divine at the beginning (he was a Libertarian and the White Spire, and he had friends, though Rhys wasn't among them) and led by a woman (at the White Spire) who framed her friend for murder in order to push the mages towards voting for independence. Pretty damn extremist just in those few bits. Clearly, not every Libertarian mage was an extremist, but many colluded together to push the other mages towards independence - which was not overwhelmingly popular before these events and had been voted DOWN before. Before current tensions, the majority of mages represented at the conclave did not favor independence. We saw the Libertarians engage in many unsavory actions to push independence. This is simply fact. 

 

 

 

The templars deserve no middle ground, nor a voice in negotiations; they're police, not politicians. This is a matter between mages and the Chantry.

 

 

Regular Templars are absolutely police, but the top guys are Sheriffs (police/politicians) and they absolutely have a voice. The Templar Order is actually PART of the Neverran accord. The mages are not even recognized in it - they are just to be controlled by it, with the Chantry as their voice. Where you get the idea that there is any such thing as an independent matter between the Mages and the Chantry that could not involve the Order, I'm not sure, but it's not from Thedas law. 

 

Some. Not most.

 

 

Some, not most are what? I agree that many mages were basically shanghied into leaving the Circles by extremist mages and bad Templar management alike (there are plenty to blame there) if that's what you mean. Most mages, it seems, would have preferred to remain in their Circles, even tense as things were, but someone lit a match near the wrong powder keg and there it went. But I don't know if you mean "Some, not most" know how to fight. Most mages definitely know how to fight. I do agree that most mages were not even involved in the original choice to rebel and were victims of their fellow mages, however. They never got to make the choice for themselves. 

 

Then tell me, what am I supposed to do with enemies in wartime who'll continue fighting as enemies?

 

 

 

See both sides logically and try to broker a reasonable peace, with moderates and good people from both sides. That's obviously an ideal view - it may not be possible - but it's a more worthy goal, in my eyes.

 

The templars took action for 2 reasons: 1) The person the mages were convening to interview was murdered and a mage was the suspect--wrong mage, but a mage all the same. 2) The mages had agreed that the only topic they would discuss was the ability to repair tranquility.  By bringing up another subject they violated the agreement.  3)  The mages previously voted against independence and even Adrian admits that they knew they weren't going win the vote for independence again which is the reason she murdered the elf to manipulate wynne and the rest of the conclave. 

 

The mages never took a vote.  The mages took up arms and rebelled to save Rhys who Adrian had manipulated into the situation he was in expressly to force Wynne to act against the templars.

 

Yes, it's Adrian's rash and extreme actions that lead to independence. It also seems likely she did not act alone.