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[Hellion Rex]

@sandalisthemaker:  I was unsure about Vivienne till today.  She will absolutely be the "other mage" I travel through Thedas with. 

I think when dealing with Circle mage stuff or Orlesian politics, she'd be the best to put into the party.

[AshenEndymion]

Why not? The Hawkes managed and every Dalish mage manage without it. I actually think the Harrowing should be done away with because there is no determining when someone is mentally ready for something like that. Essentially, they are getting put into the exact situation that everyone fears them for: a confrontation with a demon.

 
The average person doesn't know enough about magic to truly understand why the should fear it.  The Templars aren't afraid that a mage will meet a demon.  The Templars are afraid a mage will succumb to the temptations of said demon.  Putting a mage through the Harrowing is smart, because if they can't pass the "small" test, they certainly can't pass any bigger tests further down the road.
 
As for mages deserving "adequate" preparation for the Harrowing, i'm torn.  It does seem like mages do get preparation before their Harrowing.  Jowan and the Warden aren't 14/15 year olds... They are at least 17...  Which means, even if they were discovered late, they have been in the Circle for ~7 years.  Would it be nice if the mages knew what the Harrowing entailed before they entered the Fade?  Perhaps... But that knowledge may foster different issues when it comes to actually facing a demon.

[AshesEleven]

No more than any other person in a position of power.

 

Except, you know, generally people in power don't have the ability to light things on fire with their mind or lightning with their fingertips.  

[Lanavis]

@Lanavis: And because of what the mages have just done - that kind of reform is now going to be centuries away. 

 

I'd like to find out that Vivienne was actually REALLY close to having something like this starting to take off - and the rebellion crushed it.  It would frame her disdain for the rebellion nicely. 

 

@GipsyDangeresque:  The Harrowing should NEVER be optional.  What it should be - is properly prepared for.  Why they don't do this is another idiocy of the current Circles.

That is unfortunate, but it is equally the fault of the Chantry/the Templars and the mages.

 

There were decades of mages attempting to create peaceful change. Hell, it even worked in individual Circles, but those changes never reached the actual laws and so a new Templar Knight Commander could easily revert even the most peaceful and free Circle into a cesspool of fear and restrictions.

 

The fact that the Rite of Annulment is even a thing proves that The Chantry is nowhere near blameless in the mage/templar war. 

[eyezonlyii]

 
The average person doesn't know enough about magic to truly understand why the should fear it.  The Templars aren't afraid that a mage will meet a demon.  The Templars are afraid a mage will succumb to the temptations of said demon.  Putting a mage through the Harrowing is smart, because if they can't pass the "small" test, they certainly can't pass any bigger tests further down the road.
 
As for mages deserving "adequate" preparation for the Harrowing, i'm torn.  It does seem like mages do get preparation before their Harrowing.  Jowan and the Warden aren't 14/15 year olds... They are at least 17...  Which means, even if they were discovered late, they have been in the Circle for ~7 years.  Would it be nice if the mages knew what the Harrowing entailed before they entered the Fade?  Perhaps... But that knowledge may foster different issues when it comes to actually facing a demon.

I'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I like what Merrill says about the way the Dalish are trained: trust nothing in the fade (though to be fair, in Origins you do a lot of just that). 

 

"My magic will serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base." 

[BullionRouge]

It is about assumption.

 

Anders assumed all mages wanted freedom from the chantry no matter what the cost, because that is what he wanted. He decided to act for all mages.

Meredith assumed all mages were one stressful situation away from becoming an abomination and destroying the world. She decided to paint all mages with the same brush.

 

Both were extremists. While some forum members tend to hold to one extreme ideology, I think most forum members don't have trouble seeing why both sides have a point, but are acting in ways that completely negate that point.

 

I deserve freedom, so I shall bomb the **** out of everything! is just as stupid as I exist to protect people from evil magic, but I will attack all magical things because why take the risk?

[andar91]

 

 

This is more or less the solution I feel is best but what do you think about mages who have completed their training?

 

 

I would say they should be allowed to seek dispensation to do what they want. But the key word is dispensation - they would be checked up on. Like...a family being checked on by social services once in a while or something. I think they should be free to live in a small village with a family (with templars stationed there), or in the Circle as an Enchanter/Scholar/Teacher, or open a business / work through the Circle by selling magical thingamajigs or magical services to those who need them. Heck, healers could set up shop and even form freaking hospitals in larger cities. Maybe some just want to travel. Again, I think it's all good as long as they check in along the way or have some supervision at some point. True, some mages might abuse this relative freedom, but I think the goodwill it earns would prevent more bad things in the big picture - more flies with honey and all that.

 

I think I might see it a bit like the Aes Sedai in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. It's like a vast guild that governs itself and divides itself into sub-guilds that perform functions (mercenary mages / scholarly mages / business mages / healers / spy mages lol / political and justice mages /) and so on.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Lanavis:  You would not find me disagreeing.  The Chantry and the Templars had a "good idea" given to them by Andraste.  "Magic is men to serve man, and never to rule over him."  Very sound premise.

 

But - then the people embraced it, the Chantry and Templars abused it a "little" - nobody made a stink about it but mages... so a little became a lot... and here we have the tyrannical abuse of a "good idea" a thousand years later. 

 

The Chanty - being the administrative branch - was, in my opinion, more at fault for not leashing their dogs when they should have.  The Templars have gone completely off the rails of course and honestly, shouldn't even be needed.

 

Mages should have filled the templar role.  Mages trained in anti-magic and given authority to police their fellows.  Then a group should have policed those mages like an Internal Affairs.

 

But since both sides are incredibly incompetent... there's conflict...

But now, there's the Inquisition.

[metalfenix]

Somehow I didn't like her...and now I know why. Ah well, I wasn't planning to use her anyways.

[HeyCal]

Just hearing her say those things kind of solidified the fact that I am not going to like her and thusly probably never use her. I'm super pro Mage so I just wanted to roll my eyes at everything she said, haha.

I may try and use her for my own semi pro circle Mage (pro Harry potter type circle) though if she gets on my nerves she'll forever stay on her balcony,

[GipsyDangeresque]

Yeah, not only does she hold controversial views but she was very obnoxious about them.

 

I have a feeling Vivienne is going to be just as annoying as Anders about mage issues, even though she stands on the other side.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I think I am going to dislike Vivienne a great deal. Not so much because she is pro-Circle, but because of her snotty, arrogant, elitist attitude. I have no patience for people who think their s**t don't stink. I think Vivienne will be exiting via the airlock of the SSV Inquisition.

[mikeymoonshine]

I would say they should be allowed to seek dispensation to do what they want. But the key word is dispensation - they would be checked up on. Like...a family being checked on by social services once in a while or something. I think they should be free to live in a small village with a family (with templars stationed there), or in the Circle as an Enchanter/Scholar/Teacher, or open a business / work through the Circle by selling magical thingamajigs or magical services to those who need them. Heck, healers could set up shop and even form freaking hospitals in larger cities. Maybe some just want to travel. Again, I think it's all good as long as they check in along the way or have some supervision at some point. True, some mages might abuse this relative freedom, but I think the goodwill it earns would prevent more bad things in the big picture - more flies with honey and all that.

 

I think I might see it a bit like the Aes Sedai in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. It's like a vast guild that governs itself and divides itself into sub-guilds that perform functions (mercenary mages / scholarly mages / business mages / healers / spy mages lol / political and justice mages /) and so on.

 

Yep I agree completely. You would still have the Templars, seekers and maybe even the Inquisition to deal with mages who do abuse their freedom and power. I wonder what Vivienne would think of this idea. 

[leaguer of one]

She has a point. When I played my mage warden, and I was in full role as him, he felt that the outside world was a disorganized mess that was far from the quality of the circle. The mages technically are living a better quality life then most of the people of thedus. But there's is a huge counter to her point. It's a guilded cage and even well treated pets are at the mercy of the wills of their masters. Giving mages more freedom would not of been a problem.

[greywatch]

I really liked Vivienne in that video today; she seems funny and on point. That said, I definitely support the mage rebellion, so she and I will have to disagree in this area. =P

[eyezonlyii]

Why not have mages in each Chantry within the world? There are already Templars there, so a mage presence shouldn't be taken with that much concern. Instead of carting mages off to a circle tower way far away from their families, they can live and learn in the chantry, in familiar surroundings, whilst still being watched.

[sandalisthemaker]

Vivienne will just be too fabulous and fierce for many it seems.  Gurl knows how to WURK.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Personally, I'd think Circles should stay, but run by mages for mages, with the Templars (or a similar organisation, preferably secular) serving as a police hunting down mages who abuse their powers. Attendance is compulsory for all mages, but they get chances to visit their family once in a while, under supervision pre-Harrowing, alone post. They could also not be locked in a tower, have the run of an area around their designated Circle to actually be able to see the world a bit. But humans being humans, there will never be a perfect solution so long as someone gets to shoot fire out of their hands and control other's minds if they dabble in dark powers.

 

Vivienne was definitely snooty about her opinion, but given that the Mage rebellion has by and large been a huge disaster, it's kinda hard to blame her. 

[Sifr]

I like that she's forthright with her beliefs, even if she does come a cross a somewhat of an elitist snob.

 

It must be nice to suck up to the prison wardens in exchange for a nice and comfortable cell and special privileges, then act disdainful of the rest of your fellow inmates when they choose to riot because they're unhappy with the accomodation, lack of privacy, lack of time in the fresh air, constant supervision etc?

 

Hopefully we can call her out on this at some point?

[AshenEndymion]

Why not have mages in each Chantry within the world? There are already Templars there, so a mage presence shouldn't be taken with that much concern. Instead of carting mages off to a circle tower way far away from their families, they can live and learn in the chantry, in familiar surroundings, whilst still being watched.

 

In what capacity?  Mages are allowed within the Chantry to worship(and I'm sure someone lights the fires)...  But mages as religious leaders?  That idea is the fundamental one behind the schism between the Imperial Chantry and the Andrastian Chantry.  I highly doubt the Andrastian Chantry would ever allow that.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I'm reminded of average people who spoke out against rebelling against monarch's or government's arguing about them being selfish and talking as if they should be grateful for what they have and in fact have no right to ask for more. 

 

Their will always be those willing to accept having their rights and independence trodden on in the name of protection, especially so if they have some modicum of power from doing so.

 

Take into account Vivenne's position in the circle as well as her support of the chantry, along with her vanity and it's easy to see why she was more comfortable within the confines of the circle.

 

the rebels of course back an idealism that's solely based around their own liberty, suggesting its selfish is like saying a fast ball is fast. people outside the circles opinions do not matter to the rebels just as the right of mages is not cared about those outsiders.

 

the line about reminding people why their scared of magi, well nobody was crying about the horrible confined conditions of mages themselves, it was "i'm scared of them lock them up" it matters not how they justify locking them up, to the Magi the only reason they are locked up is because the mudanes fear them.....end of story.

 

those unwilling to accept confinement no longer care about those outside it and why should they? to the rebel's their confinement is as much the fault of the average person of thedas as it is the templars themselves. and for those mage that supported the towers the greatest contempt would be reserved.

 

It is in fact lucky that Bioware have chosen not to go as dark as real life, If you look at the atrocities committed in the name of liberty against those who sided with their keepers even their fellow citizens its horrific, Vivienne likely wouldn't be in Inquisition but a ditch somewhere along the imperial highway. 

 

From arson to beatings, to rape, torture and of course murder, lots and lots of murder. some of the punishments carried out by revolutionaries against their own people for supporting the other side are some of the most despicable crimes around and yet for the most part today these self serving blind rebels that only cared about themselves are celebrated by those countries that succeeded in their rebellion.

 

is mage rebellion selfish? yes of course.............. unless you support them then their your people fighting for you. then they are hero's. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, as they say. 

 

suggesting they should consider the rest of society when it is the rest of society is what keeps them caged is suggesting they should accept the oppressive conditions they are in. bringing up anders and the hit on the divine also misses the point. Nobody listened to the mages or what they wanted.

 

these crimes came about because they were ignored, To them the crimes against them go unpunished. these weren't crimes to the rebel's but protests, forcing people to start listening to them. the rebellion came about because even these protests were met with more oppression. the circle was always doomed to fail because people generally will never accept being ruled over by others, not matter how necessary the others deem it to be.

 

the fact is to the Rebel's Vivienne is the one who is blind and detriment to her own people, a traitor in fact. the problem is we have a habit of looking at things from a 21st century point of view, one where people accept less rights and freedoms in favour of security because of the comforts it affords us. But the less rights people have the more militant they are about them. history is riddled with rebellions that today are considered nuts.

 

hell the us war of independence started over the rate of taxes to pay for a war they demanded. removing yourself from the situation makes the whole thing sound stupid. but the reason was because they had no say in paying those taxes it was a right denied to them.

[eyezonlyii]

Vivienne will just be too fabulous and fierce for many it seems.  Gurl knows how to WURK.

In what capacity?  Mages are allowed within the Chantry to worship(and I'm sure someone lights the fires)...  But mages as religious leaders?  That idea is the fundamental one behind the schism between the Imperial Chantry and the Andrastian Chantry.  I highly doubt the Andrastian Chantry would ever allow that.

 

 

Instead of locked in a tower. Bring the Circle to the Chantry. Show a united face. They wouldn't have to be a religious presence, though I can't see how that would hurt things, because people would be able to see tha tyes, magic can actually serve man, and not rule over him.

In what capacity?  Mages are allowed within the Chantry to worship(and I'm sure someone lights the fires)...  But mages as religious leaders?  That idea is the fundamental one behind the schism between the Imperial Chantry and the Andrastian Chantry.  I highly doubt the Andrastian Chantry would ever allow that.

[Jaison1986]

I like that she's forthright with her beliefs, even if she does come a cross a somewhat of an elitist snob.

 

It must be nice to suck up to the prison wardens in exchange for a nice and comfortable cell and special privileges, then act disdainful of the rest of your fellow inmates when they choose to riot because they're unhappy with the accomodation, lack of privacy, lack of time in the fresh air, constant supervision etc?

 

Hopefully we can call her out on this at some point?

 

This just about sums it up nicely. She was granted privileges that very few have, and acts dismissive because those below her wanted an better life. She reminds me of an corrupt politician. She will probally be thrown out of the airlock once I get the knight enchanter specialization.

[sandalisthemaker]

 

 

 

 

YESSS.

 

And she doesn't even need the hair to give off the same impression.

[Jackums]

I think her view is very limited and/or clouded by ambition.