1751 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

*shrugs* thankfully some of us can side with the templars and the rest with the mages. Everyone wins!

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ryzaki: Do you think co-operation is going to be an option? 

 

My list of preferences: 

 

Co-operation

Refuse Both

Chose Templars

Chose Mages

 

The last two "could" switch... if the mages are willing to play by my rules.

[General TSAR]

Finally, a voice of sanity.

 

Viv, you're definitely a semi permanent party member as far as I'm concerned.  

[Travie]

A luxurious prison is still a prison. 

[Nohvarr]

Exactly, her attitude is;

 

"How dare those ingrates complain just because they've not been allowed outside the tower in over a decade! Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go rub elbows with the Empress, the Orlesian nobility and the Divine..."

Anders kills hundreds of people in Kirkwall, and then another mage tries to assassinate the divine, uniting the common people and the Nobels in fear of magic. Then the Mage leaders rebel against the Chantry, when this fear is at it's peak. Now you want to condemn Vivenne for pointing this out...why?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Travie:  And people who hear voices and risk having their bodies carved out and used as hand puppets are still a danger. 

 

@Nohvarr:  Oh, that one's easy... because when you have a bad thing happen as a child you have the right to kill and hurt as many people as you want in Dragon Age.

[Sifr]

So, now she's guilty of having worked for the freedoms other mages just want to kill for.  

 

Fascinating.

 

I think it's more of the case of, if Vivienne is an example of a mage who's allowed freedom to roam around and mix with the brass, but isn't running around and inciting chaos, what's the argument again for locking the majority of other mages away from everybody, instead of letting them have similar freedoms?

[Nohvarr]

I think it's more of the case of, if Vivienne is an example of a mage who's allowed freedom to roam around and mix with the brass, but isn't running around and inciting chaos, what's the argument again for locking the majority of other mages away from everybody, instead of letting them have similar freedoms?

Interestingly enough, that put her in a position to see how things were outside the circle. She noted that mages would have few allies, and many more enemies after the actions of Anders and others. Other mages chose to ignore this and rebel which leads to the entire world being plunged into chaos.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sifr:  Because maybe she earned it by not threatening everyone who was nervous around her with magic?  Maybe she's proven she's in control of the demons constantly clawing at her skull?  Maybe she's shown that she isn't a biased twit who thinks mages are a whole different class of "her people" and should have their dangerous quirks ignored?

[Treacherous J Slither]

The Circle should simply be a school where mages learn to control their powers and themselves. Where they learn to become productive members of society. Not a prison. Just a school.

 

The Templars should simply be a police force that goes after bad mages and magic related issues like demons and abominations. They should also allow mages to join their ranks.

 

This right here is the solution.

 

Now who among you think that this is silly and actually advocate locking up mages? 

[Ryzaki]

@Ryzaki: Do you think co-operation is going to be an option? 

 

My list of preferences: 

 

Co-operation

Refuse Both

Chose Templars

Chose Mages

 

The last two "could" switch... if the mages are willing to play by my rules.

 

I doubt it sadly. I think most of the people who were pro cooperation died in the explosion

[Medhia_Nox]

@JSlither:  I don't advocate "locking up" mages... and I don't advocate Templars.  Templars should be secular enforcers to protect the common people from mages.  Mages should have learned to police themselves - which they don't and didn't. 

 

Young mages who haven't passed their Harrowing however - should have to remain in the tower, but should be permitted visitation from parents and be given leave under supervision on occasion.

[leaguer of one]

Anders kills hundreds of people in Kirkwall, and then another mage tries to assassinate the divine, uniting the common people and the Nobels in fear of magic. Then the Mage leaders rebel against the Chantry, when this fear is at it's peak. Now you want to condemn Vivenne for pointing this out...why?

About that mage assassin? We don't know which side that mage was on. and the divide fealt it was from people in the chantry it self.

[Nohvarr]

About that mage assassin? We don't know which side that mage was on. and the divide fealt it was from people in the chantry it self.

And that distinction matters to the common people?

[ArvinDulku]

The Circle should simply be a school where mages learn to control their powers and themselves. Where they learn to become productive members of society. Not a prison. Just a school.
 
The Templars should simply be a police force that goes after bad mages and magic related issues like demons and abominations. They should also allow mages to join their ranks.
 
This right here is the solution.
 
Now who among you think that this is silly and actually advocate locking up mages?

I do, so there.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Interesting that you are reminded of that seeing as she didn't say anything at all like that. 

 

She didn't say the rebels were selfish for wanting freedom. She said it was selfish to not think about how others outside the circle felt, to oppose an investigation into an assassination attempt on the devine and for the leadership to put all mages at risk by rebelling in that way at that time. 

 

That argument is not about justification it is about practicality. Whether you agree with her or not on the issue of mage freedom you have to accept that the mages were not ready for war because they really obviously weren't ready for that. 

 

You are ignoring practicality to talk about what is fair and how people are entitled to feel, it doesn't matter. Rebelling when everyone fears and hate you means little in the way of support and allies. Even if they won what is to stop angry mobs killing many of these newly freed mages? How can they survive in an environment like that with no experience in the real world? 

 

Yes and those who supported a losing rebellion got much the same treatment. What is your point? 

 

Again, these are arguments for why it happened. They are not arguments for why it was a good idea or for why Vivienne is wrong. 

 

i was highlighting how the rebel mages think.

their is no right or wrong there is only perspective.

 

Vivienne sides on supporting the circle and confinement 

to the rebels she's the one that's blind and selfish.

 

And really? Vivienne referred to them as spoiled children for wanting their freedom.

the implication is their confinement is completely acceptable and its objectionable to even want Independence.

 

the rebel mages no longer cared about anything other then that freedom, the statement give me liberty or give me death sums it up. Losing a rebellion, losing their life, doesn't matter they weren't going to accept a collar any longer. they don't view it as some political opinion where everyone sits down and considers whether it will work in the long run. it's straight up this is it we win or we die but we don't accept these conditions any longer.

[mikeymoonshine]

I do, so there.

 

Why do you feel this is necessary? 

[Treacherous J Slither]

Vivienne's views are the views of someone who has benefitted from the current Circle system and is upset at those who have jeopardized her ambitions.

 

Nothing wrong with this. I disagree with her because I cannot defend locking people up unnecessarily.

 

Mages need education and training. Mages do not need to be locked up. 

[Nohvarr]

Vivienne's views are the views of someone who has benefitted from the current Circle system and is upset at those who have jeopardized her ambitions.

 

Nothing wrong with this. I disagree with her because I cannot defend locking people up unnecessarily.

 

Mages need education and training. Mages do not need to be locked up. 

They also don't need to be torn apart by angry fearful mobs of people.

[Giantdeathrobot]

One thing that strikes me as right, however, is when she says that mages had little considerations for the outside.

 

Well, not right, she does come from a very privileged background, but she's got a point. Whenever we like it or not, mages are locked up in circles for a reason- and as the series has shown us thus far, the danger mages pose is not some sort of propaganda. It's a very, very real one. At the most basic level, if your next door neighboor can fry you with a snap of his finger or make your children murder you by controling their blood, you are always going to be at least slightly wary of him even if he's the nicest guy to ever exist. 

 

The Andrastian religion turns this up to 11, but it's far from a baseless fear. And the only thing the mage rebellion does is fuel the fires of that fear, by wreacking havoc as soon as they are free. Sure, they do so for good reasons, many of them want to be free or just survive, but it still in many's eyes no doubt vindicate everything the Chantry has ever said about mages: you lock them up or they cause trouble.

 

Besides, what's the end goal of the Rebellion anyway? There must be some sort of actual goal. Force the Chantry to the negociating table? I suppose, but there's no way they will be very lenient after the mages proved firsthand how much destruction can be caused by letting them loose. Destroy the Templar order? Good luck, and it's not like they can't simply raise more religious warriors to fight mages that just futher prove to be incredibly dangerous. Destroy the Chantry itself? The amount of chaos and death resulting from that would be appaling, not to mention the task is daunting to say the least, given how well rooted the religion is.

 

It just seems like the mages rebelled because, well, templars are evil and stuff, not because they had an actual idea of what to do in the aftermath. If this turns out to be true, it also leads credence to Vivienne's points.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Well in contrast, the mage could be as dirt poor as most of the people in thedus. You don't like the circle, try living in an alienage or dust town.

 

and they would argue that the elves and dwarf commoners are in the alienages and dust town conditions because they do nothing to get out of it.

 

the very point of the rebellion is that they will no longer accept confinement for good or ill. their not their to fix other peoples problems.

[leaguer of one]

And that distinction matters to the common people?

The common people? The nobles in fighting, illness, and starvation are what the common people's interest. They are completely ignorant to things of mages and magic. That Ignorance can easily misguide them. Current they have issue with both mages and templers, civil wars, chantry infighting and the fade rift. They would side with the people who will ensure order and safety the fastest.

[ArvinDulku]

@JSlither:  I don't advocate "locking up" mages... and I don't advocate Templars.  Templars should be secular enforcers to protect the common people from mages.  Mages should have learned to police themselves - which they don't and didn't. 
 
Young mages who haven't passed their Harrowing however - should have to remain in the tower, but should be permitted visitation from parents and be given leave under supervision on occasion.

I might be wrong, and its has been awhile since I read WoT or the codexes, but I am pretty sure your family can visit you at the tower. Pretty sure If Connor dies, Eamon and Isolde have Rowan, who also is a mage. I am pretty sure it explicitly says that despite being sent to the circle she is visited often by her father.

This would imply that families chose to abandon and forget about their children in the circles, which make the suggestion that they should only stay till a certain age and then return to their families moot.  

I may be completely wrong about this, feel free to correct me.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@JSlither:  I don't advocate "locking up" mages... and I don't advocate Templars.  Templars should be secular enforcers to protect the common people from mages.  Mages should have learned to police themselves - which they don't and didn't. 

 

Young mages who haven't passed their Harrowing however - should have to remain in the tower, but should be permitted visitation from parents and be given leave under supervision on occasion.

 

Mages aren't some united force. They're simply people all over the world born with a closer link to the Fade. All mundanes aren't united so why would all mages be? There are groups of mages in various areas but these groups can't somehow all know of each other and form some kind of governing body. That kind of thing takes time and mages have been either locked up or living in the shadows for centuries.

 

You say "they" like they're some group aware of each member and they willingly choose not to look after one another.

[HiroVoid]

it's straight up this is it we win or we die but we don't accept these conditions any longer.

Doubt it.  Kill enough of them and the survivors will go back.  Very rarely is it ever freedom or death to the last man.