43 réponses à ce sujet

[Gairnulf]

My implication is, can it be consodered a malevolent practice of magic, similiar to mind control and other kinds of blood magic? I'm thinking the argument that the Rite of tranquility is in effect equivalent to blood magic can be a powerful base for launching an attack against the Chantry's control over mages, if some character ingame is interested in that... I'd love to know what some of the setting's authors think about this question and the possibiities it opens.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It affects emotions and desires by making you not have any. 

[KezzieZ]

Basically what Kallen said. I think a good example of the effects and someone's first-hand account of it in the Dragon Age universe was the bit in Dragon Age 2 about Karl; he was absolutely frantic about how it sucked the joy and everything else from him, but then went back to utterly neutral when the effect that allowed him normalcy again wore off.

[veeia]

Phylacteries are technically a form of blood magic, so its there...just no one cares, lol.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Basically what Kallen said. I think a good example of the effects and someone's first-hand account of it in the Dragon Age universe was the bit in Dragon Age 2 about Karl; he was absolutely frantic about how it sucked the joy and everything else from him, but then went back to utterly neutral when the effect that allowed him normalcy again wore off.

 

poor bloke begged for death rather then be returned to that state.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Probably only one part of the mind.. The "right brain" if you will. Tranquil are like pure left brainers.

 

it's basically a magic lobotomy, the frontal cortex they target in real life is on the left.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

I fail to see what is problem with RoT pretty much it is 1 of 2 only effective way dealing with weak and dangerous mages another is death. So if you don't want have even more psycho-mages and walking bombs (what we have a lot already) RoT is necessity unless you don't like screw around senselessly and just chop all mages.And no it isn't blood magic like because it isn't super dangerous for society and you can't use it as mean to control everyone at worst 1 individual.   

[Tevinter Soldier]

I fail to see what is problem with RoT pretty much it is 1 of 2 only effective way dealing with weak and dangerous mages another is death. So if you don't want have even more psycho-mages and walking bombs (what we have a lot already) RoT is necessity unless you don't like screw around senselessly and just chop all mages.And no it isn't blood magic like because it isn't super dangerous for society and you can't use it as mean to control everyone at worst 1 individual.   

 

its barbaric, cruel and unnecessary, death is more merciful. there's a reason nobody lobotomises violent criminals to "protect people" any more. I'm not one that is usually offended by things but, the RoT really shocked me. More so in DA2 when the poor mage is temporarily rescued from his torment and beg's for death.

 

to be robbed of ones sense of self ability to think or have emotions is disturbing. I can roleplay pretty much anything but...........that? it doesn't even seem to have a reason. the Qunari use mind control potions to make people believe in the Qun. Magisters use blood magic to control a person.

 

both are unsettling but, they have a point a goal that can only be achieved in this way and overall the person is still a person. they still feel think and experience life themselves. RoT is a disgusting premise you basically turn themm into a zombie because you don't have to stomach to kill them and want to convince yourself what you're doing isn't all that bad. just kill the poor bastard and be done with it.

[Panda]

It cuts you from the fade but in the other hand ex-tranquil in Asunder described being tranquil as being in endless dream, it didn't felt real but you couldn't wake up either.

[TheKomandorShepard]

its barbaric, cruel and unnecessary, death is more merciful. there's a reason nobody lobotomises violent criminals to "protect people" any more. I'm not one that is usually offended by things but, the RoT really shocked me. More so in DA2 when the poor mage is temporarily rescued from his torment and beg's for death.

 

to be robbed of ones sense of self ability to think or have emotions is disturbing. I can roleplay pretty much anything but...........that? it doesn't even seem to have a reason. the Qunari use mind control potions to make people believe in the Qun. Magisters use blood magic to control a person.

 

both are unsettling but, they have a point a goal that can only be achieved in this way and overall the person is still a person. they still feel think and experience life themselves. RoT is a disgusting premise you basically turn themm into a zombie because you don't have to stomach to kill them and want to convince yourself what you're doing isn't all that bad. just kill the poor bastard and be done with it.

It is necessary (if you want control mages and by that have safe society) as i said alternative is death and mage can choose between so it is mage choice not mention that tranquil pretty much drive circle economy so if you want maintain circles they are in fact very important.

 

Well to be honest they can think as every other individual but their way of thinking is different than it was before.

 

Magister can use blood magic on king and start war im sure pretty much templars and qunari won't and can't do that with RoT or qamek...

 

As i said RoT is alternetive that mage can pick instead death so they have choice pretty much few peoples in universe have problem with RoT even many mages.

[Icy Magebane]

its barbaric, cruel and unnecessary, death is more merciful. there's a reason nobody lobotomises violent criminals to "protect people" any more. I'm not one that is usually offended by things but, the RoT really shocked me. More so in DA2 when the poor mage is temporarily rescued from his torment and beg's for death.

 

to be robbed of ones sense of self ability to think or have emotions is disturbing. I can roleplay pretty much anything but...........that? it doesn't even seem to have a reason. the Qunari use mind control potions to make people believe in the Qun. Magisters use blood magic to control a person.

 

both are unsettling but, they have a point a goal that can only be achieved in this way and overall the person is still a person. they still feel think and experience life themselves. RoT is a disgusting premise you basically turn themm into a zombie because you don't have to stomach to kill them and want to convince yourself what you're doing isn't all that bad. just kill the poor bastard and be done with it.

I agree, but I just wanted to point out that the Qunari toxin (qamek) turns people into mindless zombies so that their bodies can be used as laborers rather than fulfilling the less useful role of fertilizer.  So technically they are fulfilling a demand of the Qun, but they will not be actively believing in anything ever again.

 

But more on topic, the Rite of Tranquility probably needs to go... I know that the Tranquil serve a useful role in that they are the only non-dwarves who can enchant items, but I think the death penalty should be used instead.

[Tevinter Soldier]

It is necessary (if you want control mages and by that have safe society) as i said alternative is death and mage can choose between so it is mage choice not mention that tranquil pretty much drive circle economy so if you want maintain circles they are in fact very important.

 

Well to be honest they can think as every other individual but their way of thinking is different than it was before.

 

Magister can use blood magic on king and start war im sure pretty much templars and qunari won't and can't do that with RoT or qamek...

 

As i said RoT is alternetive that mage can pick instead death so they have choice pretty much few peoples in universe have problem with RoT even many mages.

 

a mage rarely get's to choose mostly it's decided for them and even when they do choose it's not really a choice. they are making the choice full well knowing they die otherwise, it's natural to fear death, but to do that to them?

 

your objection to blood magic control seems only that your concerned about how it can be used you don't seem to object to the effect it has on a person. 

 

this is where i draw issue, not with what you can do with the person, what you do TO THEM, mind control and gamek are not in the same league as tranquillity at all. it literally robes the person of who they are completely. It's pure barbarism. its boarderline sadistic.

 

there are lines nobody should cross the right of tranquillity is one of them, just kill them.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I agree, but I just wanted to point out that the Qunari toxin (qamek) turns people into mindless zombies so that their bodies can be used as laborers rather than fulfilling the less useful role of fertilizer.  So technically they are fulfilling a demand of the Qun, but they will not be actively believing in anything ever again.

 

 

really? i thought it just left them open to suggestion allowing the teachings of the qun to be more effective. in that case its even worse. could the qunari get any worse? 

[Icy Magebane]

really? i thought it just left them open to suggestion allowing the teachings of the qun to be more effective. in that case its even worse. could the qunari get any worse? 

Yeah, qamek is pretty bad... but I think this is probably the worst of it (that we know of).

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qamek

[TheKomandorShepard]

a mage rarely get's to choose mostly it's decided for them and even when they do choose it's not really a choice. they are making the choice full well knowing they die otherwise, it's natural to fear death, but to do that to them?

 

your objection to blood magic control seems only that your concerned about how it can be used you don't seem to object to the effect it has on a person. 

 

this is where i draw issue, not with what you can do with the person, what you do TO THEM, mind control and gamek are not in the same league as tranquillity at all. it literally robes the person of who they are completely. It's pure barbarism. its boarderline sadistic.

 

there are lines nobody should cross the right of tranquillity is one of them, just kill them.

They can and not rarely because every mage can chose that...

 

Yep and it is most important part.

 

Qamek is pretty much same as RoT because it turns you into tool Blood magic can control you while you are able mantain you position for example as i said king. 

 

As i said tranquil are important for circle economy and it is alternative for mages instead of death.

 

That may be not nice but life isn't nice and othering creatures by nature destroy another for own goals.  

[Tevinter Soldier]

They can and not rarely because every mage can chose that...

 

Yep and it is most important part.

 

Qamek is pretty much same as RoT because it turns you into tool Blood magic can control you while you are able mantain you position for example as i said king. 

 

As i said tranquil are important for circle economy and it is alternative for mages instead of death.

 

That may be not nice but life isn't nice and othering creatures by nature destroy another for own goals.  

 

the right of tranquilty is more then just a choice very few mages choose it its enforced on them. the fact most would rather face death, shows how barabaric a practice it is. most traquils are made so without any choice by the mage its imposed on them. and even when they choose it that "choice" is a death threat.

 

its just inhumane, death is a better option. there's no reason to do it. it's not "just not nice" 

Killing a person because your afraid of them isn't nice.

lobotomising them is sadistic.

[Roamingmachine]

really? i thought it just left them open to suggestion allowing the teachings of the qun to be more effective. in that case its even worse. could the qunari get any worse? 

 

I suppose they could boil kittens and puppies alive. They are pretty abhorrent.

 

As is tranquility.  To answer the op, there is no meaningful diffrence between tranquility and mind control through blood magic. Both rip the essential freedom of thought from the person. Blood magic just replaces it with the will of the caster.

[Wolfen09]

paint fumes affect my mind

[Gairnulf]

I dont't have "a problem" with the Rite of Tranquility, neither do I cherish it. Seen from the perspective of a Thedosian, I suppose it's the best method for eliminating the uncertainty around mages with weak willpower they have at their disposal. Also keep in mind that compassion for the loss incurred on Tranquils may and most probably does exist among non-tranquils.

As I said, I am only pondering the potency of the argument that the Rite is in effect equivalent to Mind control as an argument against this Chantry practice.

Re the philacteries being blood magic, that's correct, and I'm aware of that, but it's not news. It's been confirmed by David Gaider as well. From my perspective, the philacteries are much less harmful, because 1. There is no uncertainty/danger involved in their use, it has (at least for the time being) been established how they work, and they work consistently, and 2. They don't cause physical or mental damage in the way the Rite of Tranquility does.

[TheKomandorShepard]

the right of tranquilty is more then just a choice very few mages choose it its enforced on them. the fact most would rather face death, shows how barabaric a practice it is. most traquils are made so without any choice by the mage its imposed on them. and even when they choose it that "choice" is a death threat.

 

its just inhumane, death is a better option. there's no reason to do it. it's not "just not nice" 

Killing a person because your afraid of them isn't nice.

lobotomising them is sadistic.

What is barabaric is matter of opinion im pretty much sure orlesian have same opinion about ferelden should we burn it to the grund?

RoT is accepted by majority of peoples in thedas.

And every mage have choice either to die or become tranquil pretty much what they tell you in dao magi origins so no in few cases it is forced like corrupted templar like arlik but most mages have choice either die or tran.We know that many mages find tranq attractive and pick it up instead death.

 

No it isn't inhumane it is practical pretty much humans do that a lot and it isn't sadism because that would require individual that enjoy suffering of such mage and RoT isn't just individual practice but practice of whole organisation that does that for practical reasons not mention we don't know even if such mage suffer during RoT.

And as i said humans rarely do nice things. 

[10K]

The right of tranquility is just another alternative to deal with weak willed mages. I have no problem with it. If they do not whish to die they can become tranquil, their choice.

[Ignasious]

I have to agree with Tevinter Soldier (which...is a bit ironic, considering the name and my opinion of Tevinter  ). The Rite of Tranquility is probably the most cruel thing imaginable. An approved lobotomy, that serves as "protection" against more weak minded mages (or mages that simply makes one "misstake"...or for being a mage in general according to people like Alrik), and as a living example of horror for the mages who havn't become tranquil. To be stuck in a tower all your life, being told you are scum, and then seeing a person that might have been a close friend, taking care of a stockroom with a tranquil brand on their forhead...I can understand if depresion was a thing in the circles, even more so because of it.

 

Sadly, it is so far the only option for mages of weaker minds to survive, without being an abomination (which, is also rather high up on the "horrible" scale). It does make one wonder however, if there could have been another way to help those mages if the Rite didn't exist? As I understood from bits of information I have found from Asunder, the Rite of Tranquility is something not completly understood. If it didn't exist, would the chantry, templars and the circle found a better way?

[nightcobra]

a conversation i had on another thread seems relevant here so I'll just post it :

 

we now know that red lyrium is basically anti-magic.

Seeing as how it worked in DA2, I'd say it functions like a magic sponge, syphoning and storing magical power giving access to that magic to whoever wields it (ie, Meredith and the red templars).

Further study of red lyrium could be advantageous as a method of taking a mage's magic without resorting to the rite of tranquility.

Along with the lack of knowledge, the main problem is to how this implement this method as it poses a few problems, such as how to safely discharge red lyrium when it's fully charged seeing at how it can be disastrous if it's unleashed uncontrollably like what we saw with Meredith.

There's also the misterious effects it poses on people, namely Bartrand and maybe varric.

It is something to think on however.

 

 

 

I was under the impression that mages were made tranquil because that way you sever their connection with the Fade, making it impossible for the demon to find a gate into this world. If, on the contrary, you take out a mage's magic (how is that done? what does it mean? the ability to cast spells or the ability to intearct with the Fade while conscious?) wouldn't that mean the mage is still connected to the Fade while still conscious? 

 

My guess they would still be connected to the fade but with their magic sealed I'd wager the demons would see them as any other mortal.

They might be able to see the lyrium though.

[Deadman Inc. 73]

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Tranquil