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Total War: Attila


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#1
AventuroLegendary

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I couldn't find any thread about this game in particular and it's pretty much old news at this point so I guess I'll start with a fairly recent trailer.

 

 

For anyone who doesn't know, it's Rome 2 but with a focus on Attila (duh) and is set during the closing days of Antiquity, similarly to Barbarian Invasion. New features will include dynamic fire, civilians, family trees (cheers), barricades, and complete settlement destruction. I've heard that Attila will be playable but most likely not in the grand campaign.

 

Thoughts? After Rome 2, it'd be wise to wait for a month of two after release for reviews.

 

Siege of Carthage demo, never forget.

 

On another note, now I just want Medieval 3 more. The darker, chaotic tone would suit it perfectly. And maybe a Total War: Genghis Khan. One can dream.



#2
Gorthaur the Cruel

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I like the gritty apocalyptic feel of it, but I probably won't buy it. I skipped out on Rome 2 and that was probably a good idea in hindsight.

 

CA really should make use of that Warhammer license they acquired, that would make for a badass total war.



#3
wolfhowwl

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Didn't it take them until last month to fix Total War Rome II?



#4
Fidite Nemini

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Yeah, not buying another Total War game for a long time. Shogun 2 was bad enough and all the things I've heard/read about Rome 2 paint an even bleaker mosaic.



#5
AventuroLegendary

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I like the gritty apocalyptic feel of it, but I probably won't buy it. I skipped out on Rome 2 and that was probably a good idea in hindsight.

 

CA really should make use of that Warhammer license they acquired, that would make for a badass total war.

 

I was hoping for a licensed Tolkien game. The two things missing from Third Age: Total War were fellbeasts and Grond.

 

 

Yeah, not buying another Total War game for a long time. Shogun 2 was bad enough and all the things I've heard/read about Rome 2 paint an even bleaker mosaic.

 

 

That's new. The only thing I can really hold against Shogun 2 is its engine.



#6
Fidite Nemini

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That's new. The only thing I can really hold against Shogun 2 is its engine.

 

 

The biggest thing I hold against it is the fact that I can open up a random game, start playing it, get bored and quit again before I even get to see the game menu in Shogun 2.



#7
AventuroLegendary

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The biggest thing I hold against it is the fact that I can open up a random game, start playing it, get bored and quit again before I even get to see the game menu in Shogun 2.

 

Hmm? Is it because of the less-than-diverse factions and unit roster?



#8
Fidite Nemini

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Hmm? Is it because of the less-than-diverse factions and unit roster?

 

I haven't played Rome 2.



#9
AventuroLegendary

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I haven't played Rome 2.

 

I was talking about Shogun 2. 



#10
mybudgee

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Nope
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#11
Aimi

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Wonderful. A Total War game set in the fifth century that manages to ignore almost everything important that was happening in favor of a flashy, transitory irrelevancy. I get that they've got a game to market to people who don't know much about history, but damn, they could've at least used a more generic name to refer to the end of the Empire instead of some random warlord.

I don't expect much out of the gameplay, either, given the colossal mess that was Rome 2. I'll just be over here, playing Europa Barbarorum. Don't mind me.
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#12
AventuroLegendary

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Wonderful. A Total War game set in the fifth century that manages to ignore almost everything important that was happening in favor of a flashy, transitory irrelevancy. I get that they've got a game to market to people who don't know much about history, but damn, they could've at least used a more generic name to refer to the end of the Empire instead of some random warlord.

 

To be fair, we haven't seen anything beyond a siege between the Western Romans and Saxons in London (which never actually happened but whatever). And Attila was more than just a random warlord; he lead a tribe that caused wholesale migrations, leading to the "Barbarian Invasion".



#13
Kaiser Arian XVII

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What the bloody hell! What genius is behind this Idea? Is Attila a likeable character? and that Era is so lame.

 

And yet to see a game set in Medes/Assyria period.



#14
Dermain

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I couldn't find any thread about this game in particular and it's pretty much old news at this point so I guess I'll start with a fairly recent trailer.

 

 

For anyone who doesn't know, it's Rome 2 but with a focus on Attila (duh) and is set during the closing days of Antiquity, similarly to Barbarian Invasion. New features will include dynamic fire, civilians, family trees (cheers), barricades, and complete settlement destruction. I've heard that Attila will be playable but most likely not in the grand campaign.

 

Thoughts? After Rome 2, it'd be wise to wait for a month of two after release for reviews.

 

Siege of Carthage demo, never forget.

 

On another note, now I just want Medieval 3 more. The darker, chaotic tone would suit it perfectly. And maybe a Total War: Genghis Khan. One can dream.

 

If I understand my own rumor searching friends correctly, Creative Assembly has stated that they won't do a "3" for any of the Total Wars.

 

I am really dreading Empire 2 Total War after the disaster that was both Empire and Rome 2...



#15
AlanC9

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What went wrong with Rome 2, anyway? I mean, sometimes it's just bad implementation, short time, etc., but this one looks like it had basic conceptual flaws. Anyone have a good idea what they were?

#16
Dermain

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What went wrong with Rome 2, anyway? I mean, sometimes it's just bad implementation, short time, etc., but this one looks like it had basic conceptual flaws. Anyone have a good idea what they were?

 

My main complaints were that the family tree was gone, there were way too many factions, it took forever for the faction list to finish (sometimes 15 minutes), and apparently their were random crashes (that I never had).



#17
Aimi

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And Attila was more than just a random warlord; he lead a tribe that caused wholesale migrations, leading to the "Barbarian Invasion".

 
No, he was exactly just a random warlord.

The rest of that is...well, I'll just restate it in a better way.

Many people associate the fall of the Western Empire with "barbarian migrations". The Völkerwanderung, or Migration Period/Era, is a commonly used appellation for the period now. It is a uniquely poorly substantiated case, however. Statistically, fewer people migrated during this time period than during some others in not far off European history: for instance, perhaps several millions left Italy over the course of the centuries immediately surrounding the birth of Christ, as part of the colonization of Rome's newly acquired provinces. Even the most generous estimates of pro-migration scholars place the number of "barbarians" that entered Roman territory during this time in the low hundreds of thousands.

Some people choose to circumvent this statistical problem by claiming that the "barbarian migrations" were the key thing that brought down the Roman Empire in the West. There are plenty of historians who disagree: for example, Guy Halsall, Michael Kulikowski, and Walter Goffart, who reverse the causation, locating the cause of barbarian migration at the fall of the Empire, not the other way around.

Nevertheless, there is modern scholarly support for your contention that Attila "led a tribe that caused [...] the barbarian migrations", in a roundabout way. Peter Heather, for example, has claimed that Hunnic migration into Europe set off a chain of dominoes, forcing other tribes to move as well and sparking the most famous examples of migratory activity. Both Halsall and Goffart have logically demolished this case - not that that has stopped Heather from continuing to teach it.

Of course, your grammar is still problematic, because it implies that Attila was the leader of the Huns when, Heather claims, the Huns were "pushing" barbarians westward. When Attila was in charge of the Huns, migration was in fact quite low on the agenda: migrating people are hard to keep in an army, and Attila preferred to keep his army together so he could use it to raid Roman territory and extort the Roman government of valuables. The 440s and early 450s, Attila's period of ascendancy, were times when migration over the borders into the Empire is said by Heather and other pro-migration historians to have slowed to a crawl.

So, even if one gives the Huns a protagonist's role in the breakup of the Roman Empire in the West - and that is something that only bad historians do, in my opinion - then one would not be giving Attila that role, because Attila wasn't in charge of the Huns when they were doing their most historically important work, in the 370s and the 400s.

Instead, Attila ruled the Huns and a coalition of other groups and was unusually successful at extorting an already weakened imperial government for about a decade. Eventually, he squandered much of his power in two large-scale, flashy, but ultimately fruitless campaigns in the West, and died shortly thereafter. He did not kill the Western Empire, much less the Eastern Empire. He did not even contribute meaningfully to its eventual demise. Even Heather argues that Attila was not so much a threat to the West alive as dead, because when Attila died, Heather claims, the tribes he had kept in thrall resumed swarming over Rome's borders.

There is, to be fair, a great deal of apocalyptic drama surrounding the events of 451 and 452. Most of it was manufactured after the fact, naturally. What made Attila's failed war against Rome any different from that of Radagaisus? Why emphasis Gaul in the 450s instead of Gaul in the 400s and 410s? Why not highlight the massive civil wars against Honorius - a far more plausible causative factor in the fall of the West than the activities of the Huns - which came replete with their own cast of compelling characters?

I stand by my description of Attila as a flashy, transitory irrelevancy and a random warlord. Compared to Constantinus "III", Magnus Maximus, or even Alareiks, he cuts a rather poor figure.
 

My main complaints were that the family tree was gone, there were way too many factions, it took forever for the faction list to finish (sometimes 15 minutes), and apparently their were random crashes (that I never had).


I agree with everything you said, and to expand on it:

The game had way too many factions without enough flavor differences between them. Instead of focusing on the top level of classical states, CA chose to split everything up into satrapies and governorships, decentralizing everything. This helped to give the player a feeling of constant expansion throughout the game, even if they started as the ruler of a vast empire - first the player would conquer her own satraps, then the rest of the world. Unfortunately, that didn't actually balance the game at all. And the differences between these satraps were trivial at best. Units were differentiated chiefly by name and little else. Historical accuracy suffered (and that always gets my goat) but more importantly, replayability did.

Tactical gameplay suffered very badly as well. RTW and its ilk were always arcadey, with compressed-time battles and greater lethality, but TWR2 took that to a ridiculous extreme. It did not help Rome 2's case that insofar as tactics did exist, they rarely if ever resembled actual classical tactics: good luck finding the Diadoch oblique order or a quincunx anywhere.
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#18
Dermain

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No, he was exactly just a random warlord.

The rest of that is...well, I'll just restate it in a better way.

Many people associate the fall of the Western Empire with "barbarian migrations". The Völkerwanderung, or Migration Period/Era, is a commonly used appellation for the period now. It is a uniquely poorly substantiated case, however. Statistically, fewer people migrated during this time period than during some others in not far off European history: for instance, perhaps several millions left Italy over the course of the centuries immediately surrounding the birth of Christ, as part of the colonization of Rome's newly acquired provinces. Even the most generous estimates of pro-migration scholars place the number of "barbarians" that entered Roman territory during this time in the low hundreds of thousands.

Some people choose to circumvent this statistical problem by claiming that the "barbarian migrations" were the key thing that brought down the Roman Empire in the West. There are plenty of historians who disagree: for example, Guy Halsall, Michael Kulikowski, and Walter Goffart, who reverse the causation, locating the cause of barbarian migration at the fall of the Empire, not the other way around.

Nevertheless, there is modern scholarly support for your contention that Attila "led a tribe that caused [...] the barbarian migrations", in a roundabout way. Peter Heather, for example, has claimed that Hunnic migration into Europe set off a chain of dominoes, forcing other tribes to move as well and sparking the most famous examples of migratory activity. Both Halsall and Goffart have logically demolished this case - not that that has stopped Heather from continuing to teach it.

Of course, your grammar is still problematic, because it implies that Attila was the leader of the Huns when, Heather claims, the Huns were "pushing" barbarians westward. When Attila was in charge of the Huns, migration was in fact quite low on the agenda: migrating people are hard to keep in an army, and Attila preferred to keep his army together so he could use it to raid Roman territory and extort the Roman government of valuables. The 440s and early 450s, Attila's period of ascendancy, were times when migration over the borders into the Empire is said by Heather and other pro-migration historians to have slowed to a crawl.

So, even if one gives the Huns a protagonist's role in the breakup of the Roman Empire in the West - and that is something that only bad historians do, in my opinion - then one would not be giving Attila that role, because Attila wasn't in charge of the Huns when they were doing their most historically important work, in the 370s and the 400s.

Instead, Attila ruled the Huns and a coalition of other groups and was unusually successful at extorting an already weakened imperial government for about a decade. Eventually, he squandered much of his power in two large-scale, flashy, but ultimately fruitless campaigns in the West, and died shortly thereafter. He did not kill the Western Empire, much less the Eastern Empire. He did not even contribute meaningfully to its eventual demise. Even Heather argues that Attila was not so much a threat to the West alive as dead, because when Attila died, Heather claims, the tribes he had kept in thrall resumed swarming over Rome's borders.

There is, to be fair, a great deal of apocalyptic drama surrounding the events of 451 and 452. Most of it was manufactured after the fact, naturally. What made Attila's failed war against Rome any different from that of Radagaisus? Why emphasis Gaul in the 450s instead of Gaul in the 400s and 410s? Why not highlight the massive civil wars against Honorius - a far more plausible causative factor in the fall of the West than the activities of the Huns - which came replete with their own cast of compelling characters?

I stand by my description of Attila as a flashy, transitory irrelevancy and a random warlord. Compared to Constantinus "III", Magnus Maximus, or even Alareiks, he cuts a rather poor figure.
 

I agree with everything you said, and to expand on it:

The game had way too many factions without enough flavor differences between them. Instead of focusing on the top level of classical states, CA chose to split everything up into satrapies and governorships, decentralizing everything. This helped to give the player a feeling of constant expansion throughout the game, even if they started as the ruler of a vast empire - first the player would conquer her own satraps, then the rest of the world. Unfortunately, that didn't actually balance the game at all. And the differences between these satraps were trivial at best. Units were differentiated chiefly by name and little else. Historical accuracy suffered (and that always gets my goat) but more importantly, replayability did.

Tactical gameplay suffered very badly as well. RTW and its ilk were always arcadey, with compressed-time battles and greater lethality, but TWR2 took that to a ridiculous extreme. It did not help Rome 2's case that insofar as tactics did exist, they rarely if ever resembled actual classical tactics: good luck finding the Diadoch oblique order or a quincunx anywhere.

 

Which also reminds me:

 

Good luck finding a unit formation that actually worked as intended. I have no idea if that was ever patched into it. I do know mods exist, but those usually make X formation far more godlike than it should have been.

 

As for the historical debate, I'll leave that to people that haven't become too cynical about historical sources or the people teaching from them.



#19
AventuroLegendary

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No, he was exactly just a random warlord.

The rest of that is...well, I'll just restate it in a better way.

Many people associate the fall of the Western Empire with "barbarian migrations". The Völkerwanderung, or Migration Period/Era, is a commonly used appellation for the period now. It is a uniquely poorly substantiated case, however. Statistically, fewer people migrated during this time period than during some others in not far off European history: for instance, perhaps several millions left Italy over the course of the centuries immediately surrounding the birth of Christ, as part of the colonization of Rome's newly acquired provinces. Even the most generous estimates of pro-migration scholars place the number of "barbarians" that entered Roman territory during this time in the low hundreds of thousands.

Some people choose to circumvent this statistical problem by claiming that the "barbarian migrations" were the key thing that brought down the Roman Empire in the West. There are plenty of historians who disagree: for example, Guy Halsall, Michael Kulikowski, and Walter Goffart, who reverse the causation, locating the cause of barbarian migration at the fall of the Empire, not the other way around.

Nevertheless, there is modern scholarly support for your contention that Attila "led a tribe that caused [...] the barbarian migrations", in a roundabout way. Peter Heather, for example, has claimed that Hunnic migration into Europe set off a chain of dominoes, forcing other tribes to move as well and sparking the most famous examples of migratory activity. Both Halsall and Goffart have logically demolished this case - not that that has stopped Heather from continuing to teach it.

 

I didn't mean to imply that Attila was the chief driving force to the already-happening migrations. Nor that the migration period was the chief driving force behind the fall of the Western Roman Empire. But... that's a new one. Granted, I'll have to read into it a bit more before I agree but I found this insightful.

 

To add to that piece on Rome 2...

 

Rome 2 was built on an engine ill-suited for melee combat. Warscape was designed, first and foremost, for line infantry musket warfare. With that, there is a lack of unit collision and an obnoxious focus on flashy kill moves, which has units attacking each other one at a time for no apparent reason. It gets so idiotic to the point of Legionaries attacking Berserkers one on one. There's also how "higher ground" barely factors as a tactical advantage. This all means that unit stats are the key to winning individual battles, not circumstance. Shogun 2 managed to succeed despite the engine, not because of it.

 

The AI was also pretty dumb. While the Total War series has never presented a golden standard of AI, it was significantly worse off here. At launch, units would stand outside siege walls and get slaughtered easily by ranged units. There's little rhyme or reason in diplomacy. It's more determined by dice rolls than anything else.

 

As for the multiple factions, I liked how they at least tried to make things a bit more historically accurate in at least when it came to naming (Britannia and Germania were never united and Egypt was Ptolemaic at the time). But ultimately, it's drowned out by homogenization with the Satrapy system.



#20
Kaiser Arian XVII

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The reason of falling of the (western) Roman empire:

- Lack of Military innovation / Military equipment improvements by the neighbors AKA barbarians

- The centralized Rome lost its attractiveness when Roman Rights were given to everyone in the Empire.

- Population diversity, not enough true blood Romans (not many really had that nationalistic feel for some time)

- Huns invasion was really devastating

- Losing agricultural territories around Mediterranean Sea

- Sassanian Empire? They defeated Roman Empire in the 3rd century (and later in the 6th century). Also the lack of good relation with Persia was bad for both Empires.

 

I don't necessarily find dividing the Empire in 4 a bad thing. The Byzantine Empire flourished. If the other three emperors and their successors were "genius" they could have changed the history!

 

I may missed a few points but the reasons were majorly these.



#21
Alan Rickman

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With mods, Rome 2 has been a good game since the spring or so. Pretty much every TW game has required mods to truly shine, so I don't think this is all that different from previous installments.



#22
Kaiser Arian XVII

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With mods, Rome 2 has been a good game since the spring or so. Pretty much every TW game has required mods to truly shine, so I don't think this is all that different from previous installments.

 

Medieval II doesn't need mods to shine.



#23
Alan Rickman

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Medieval II doesn't need mods to shine.

 

I disagree, but Medieval 2 + Kingdoms is still easily my favorite TW game.



#24
Melra

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Meh, not buying it. I have Medieval 2, Shogun 2 and Rome 2, if I ever feel like playing some total wars. Even though I am not big fan of Rome 2, it is still better for co-op campaigns than Shogun 2. Shogun gets old way too fast, my main complaint with Rome 2 was quite frankly lack of feel and lack of family trees, otherwise I had fun playing it.



#25
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At least we get to see huge armies killing the **** out of each other.

 

That's cool.