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Total War: Attila


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#26
Dermain

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I didn't mean to imply that Attila was the chief driving force to the already-happening migrations. Nor that the migration period was the chief driving force behind the fall of the Western Roman Empire. But... that's a new one. Granted, I'll have to read into it a bit more before I agree but I found this insightful.

 

To add to that piece on Rome 2...

 

Rome 2 was built on an engine ill-suited for melee combat. Warscape was designed, first and foremost, for line infantry musket warfare. With that, there is a lack of unit collision and an obnoxious focus on flashy kill moves, which has units attacking each other one at a time for no apparent reason. It gets so idiotic to the point of Legionaries attacking Berserkers one on one. There's also how "higher ground" barely factors as a tactical advantage. This all means that unit stats are the key to winning individual battles, not circumstance. Shogun 2 managed to succeed despite the engine, not because of it.

 

The AI was also pretty dumb. While the Total War series has never presented a golden standard of AI, it was significantly worse off here. At launch, units would stand outside siege walls and get slaughtered easily by ranged units. There's little rhyme or reason in diplomacy. It's more determined by dice rolls than anything else.

 

As for the multiple factions, I liked how they at least tried to make things a bit more historically accurate in at least when it came to naming (Britannia and Germania were never united and Egypt was Ptolemaic at the time). But ultimately, it's drowned out by homogenization with the Satrapy system.

 

Germany was never united until Prince Otto Von Bismark showed up. Even the Holy Roman Empire was a mess.



#27
AventuroLegendary

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Germany was never united until Prince Otto Von Bismark showed up. Even the Holy Roman Empire was a mess.

 

I never implied it was. Just that some faction themes and names in vanilla Rome were innaccurate.



#28
Dermain

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I never implied it was. Just that some faction themes and names in vanilla Rome were innaccurate.

 

It's one of my pet peeves. Especially with Medieval 2.



#29
AventuroLegendary

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It's one of my pet peeves. Especially with Medieval 2.

 

Like with Scot"Braveheart"land? 

 

Or with United Spain and Russia?

 

Stainless Steel is best mod :)



#30
Fidite Nemini

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Germany was never united until Prince Otto Von Bismark showed up. Even the Holy Roman Empire was a mess.

 

Let's just settle for Germany =/= Germany.

 

Because really, there never was a unified Germany and there still isn't if we're talking ethnicity and cultural borders instead of dictated lines on a map drawn by politicians.


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#31
Aimi

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The reason of falling of the (western) Roman empire:
- Lack of Military innovation / Military equipment improvements by the neighbors AKA barbarians
- The centralized Rome lost its attractiveness when Roman Rights were given to everyone in the Empire.
- Population diversity, not enough true blood Romans (not many really had that nationalistic feel for some time)
- Huns invasion was really devastating
- Losing agricultural territories around Mediterranean Sea
- Sassanian Empire? They defeated Roman Empire in the 3rd century (and later in the 6th century). Also the lack of good relation with Persia was bad for both Empires.
 
I don't necessarily find dividing the Empire in 4 a bad thing. The Byzantine Empire flourished. If the other three emperors and their successors were "genius" they could have changed the history!
 
I may missed a few points but the reasons were majorly these.

 
In order:

Rome's military was never at any point weaker than the fighting forces of its northern opponents; Elton (1996) bears this out in rather dramatic fashion, listing all historically attested engagements between the Roman military and unambiguously external forces and coming up with a rather startlingly-in-Rome's-favor set of outcomes. Sure, the Romans lost some battles, but there's no such thing as an unambiguously perfect record for any military in history. Battle is a lottery, and even though the Romans could buy more tickets than anybody else, they couldn't buy all of them. The series of events that is conventionally held to indicate the fall of the Western Empire - Odovacar's 476 coup against the government of Orestes and Romvlvs Avgvstvlvs - had nothing to do with external military pressure.

Rome was, if anything, more centralized under the later Empire than it was before Caracalla granted citizenship to all free adult Roman males in 212. The later Emperors ruled what is sometimes referred to as the "Dominate" (as opposed to the earlier "Principate"), marked, ostensibly, by a growth of the imperial bureaucracy at the expense of local leadership and the senatorial aristocracy. More recent historians have shown that this is a false dichotomy. Either way, though, the problems of centralization existed throughout the Empire's existence and there was nothing particularly special about the late fourth century and fifth century that changed them in a meaningful way. It's basically impossible for me to see what Caracalla's citizenship edict has to do with the fall of the West; there's no obvious causative link, and the two things are separated by 250 years.

And the claim that the extension of the franchise was a Bad Thing is immediately contradicted by the next point, which claims that Rome was too diverse, not insufficiently diverse. More inhabitants of the Roman Empire considered themselves Romans first and other things second in the fourth century than they did in the first century. There was regional variation, sure, but there is always regional variation, especially outside the aristocracy. When the various provinces went their own way in the late fifth century, it was not because they were insufficiently loyal to the Empire. Quite the opposite: I would argue that it was instead because the Empire was insufficiently loyal to them.

The Hunnic invasions were quite devastating. But they did not cause the fall of the West. Attila and the Huns raided the Balkan provinces of the Eastern Empire for a decade. They caused incalculable property damage, thousands of deaths, enslaved thousands more, and forced the imperial treasury in Constantinople to disgorge millions of gold pieces into Attila's hands. Then, the Huns turned west and launched two vicious unsuccessful campaigns that did not result in any tribute. If the Hunnic invasions of 451 and 452 were so bad that they contributed to the collapse of the Western Empire, why didn't the much worse incursions of the 440s cause the collapse of the Eastern Empire? What, precisely, is the line of causation between the Battle of the Campus Mauriacus and the abdication of Avgvstvlvs?

The second-to-last point, the loss of Africa, is something I wholeheartedly agree with as a major cause of the end of Rome in the West. It is no coincidence that the last Emperor in Italy fell within a few years of the last failed attempts to recapture Africa (in 468 and 471). Vandal conquest of Africa represented a humongous revenue loss for Rome, the severance of the Carthage-Rome trade spine (the single most important economic pipeline in the world at that point), the emergence of a pirate threat in hitherto-quiescent Mediterranean waters, and the end of the city of Rome's cheap food supply.

The Sasanian Empire was, to all intents and purposes, irrelevant to the fall of Rome in the West. It was a security threat to the Eastern Empire when it was a security threat to any Romans at all, and the East did not fall. For most of the fifth century, Constantinople and Tisifon were at peace anyway.

---

Africa was important, but the reason Africa was lost to Rome was because it was captured by the Vandals and Alans. And it was captured by the Vandals and Alans because the Western Roman military was so busy fighting itself that it didn't have the ability to defend the province. From 380 onward, the Roman military was engaged in a series of destructive, endless civil wars. They started because the Western Emperors had begun to fail at elite management. For most of the fourth century, the Western Emperors were generally competent: they were able to balance the patronage needs of Gallic and Italian interests. In 380, the Emperor Gratianvs failed at maintaining the balancing act, and the general Magnvs Maximvs revolted with Gaul as his base. Maximvs's rebellion eventually failed, but successive Emperors consistently failed to fix the underlying problem of elite management and relied on winning the inevitable civil wars to keep Gaul in line.

In 405-07, the Emperor Honorivs and his generalissimo, Stilicho, were confronted simultaneously by several threats. Firstly, Stilicho was trying to fight the Constantinopolitan government. His main weapon in this war was the field army of Alareiks, which switched sides frequently and required a great deal of finesse to manage. Secondly, Stilicho faced an invasion from the north of a broad collection of allegedly migratory "barbarians" led by one Radagaisvs. He successfully defeated this group at Faesvlae and enslaved the survivors. Thirdly, he was beset with an invasion over the Rhine by the Alans, Asdings, Silings, and Sueves, which he completely failed to address. And fourthly, he was attacked by the rebellious forces of the usurper Constantinvs "III" in Britannia, Gaul, and Hispania. This combination of threats - the most dangerous of which came from Eastern Rome and the Western rebel army - overloaded the imperial military and caused its near collapse.

Eventually, Honorivs's military climbed back from the brink under the leadership of the general Constantivs, who reestablished control over Alareiks' field army, crushed the Rhine invaders and drove the few survivors into Hispania, and annihilated the rebels in Gaul. Constantivs looked like he had everything under control, with only the last sad remnants of the Vandals, Alans, and Sueves to deal with, but his death in 423 precipitated another civil war. During the confusion, the Rhine invaders invaded Africa, and then they conquered it in the midst of yet another civil war. The eventual winner of the struggle for imperial primacy, the general Aetivs, was less competent than Constantivs and failed to recapture Africa, northern Gaul, or most of Hispania. Aetivs's eventual death precipitated yet another struggle for power...and so on, and so forth.

The key problem was that the Emperors who ruled the West for most of this time period - Gratianvs, Valentinianvs II, Honorivs, and Valentinianvs III - were incompetents in the most basic of ways. They could not exercise even a modicum of control over their own aristocracies or their own militaries. It was left to powerful generals and statesmen to exercise real control from behind the scenes, but these generals never had the secure authority that the Emperors would have had. And nobody resolved the issue of managing the competing Gallic and Italian aristocracies until it was, to all intents and purposes, too late. The civil wars that were spawned from this failure of basic governance lay at the heart of each and every one of the West's problems.

It was by no means certain that, having become embroiled in civil war, the West was irrevocably doomed. Far from it. Rome had faced civil war before, and survived quite nicely. That's what the East managed to do, after all. But the West was struck with a run of rather awful luck: every time somebody appeared to be close to putting the pieces back together properly, something went wrong. Theodosivs I put the Empire back together but died and left two incompetent sons in charge of the whole thing. Constantivs put the Empire back together and died of pleurisy right before his final triumph. Later strongmen and Emperors - Aetivs, Maiorianvs, Anthemivs - came reasonably close to achieving something but suffered from a similar bit of bad luck. Anthemivs's Africa invasion fleet, for instance, was destroyed because the wind off Cape Bon had an unseasonable turn that allowed Vandal fireships a once-in-a-lifetime chance to close on a helplessly trapped target. Without that change in the breeze, Africa probably would've been back in Roman hands, and that could've changed everything.

And the remarkable thing was that the Empire died in spite of the fact that literally nobody wanted to destroy it. Instead, the various squabbling generals were each aiming for a better position within a functioning, powerful Rome. Many so-called "barbarians" - who were, in many cases, simply Roman-born officers in charge of Roman field armies, only some of whom had distant ancestors from over the border - were in the same boat. It was only after a century (380-476) of blatantly obvious evidence that the Empire was broken that they started to act less as Roman grandees and soldiers and more as the rulers of their own little pocket kingdoms.

Sussing out which of these men were barbarians and which were Romans is a bit of a joke. Historical convention, for example, labels the shadowy realm of Syagrivs and Aegidivs, centered on Noviodvnvm in Gaul, as the "Dominion of Soissons [sic]", a loyal Roman province that survived the fall of the West for some years. Its chief competitor was the realm of the "Franci", led by Childericvs and Chlodovechvs, which is described as a "barbarian" kingdom. Chlodovechvs eventually defeated Syagrivs, conquered his lands, and came to rule all Gaul, which eventually gained the name Francia after his kingdom, or France. Yet there was no meaningful difference between the two sides. Aegidivs and Childericvs were both born within the Empire, and led elements of the Roman military. Each obeyed and disobeyed various Emperors based on which way the political winds were blowing; they eventually both struck out on their own when it became clear that there was no real benefit to allying with whoever was flavor of the week in Italy. The only thing was, Chlodovechvs survived and had to create a founding mythos for his kingdom, so he drew on the "Franci"; Syagrivs didn't, so he was left as a Roman by default. The same situation obtained everywhere else. New identities were created wholesale, or elevated from obscurity to supersede a defunct Roman identity that lacked the same sort of cachet that it once had. Romanness did not cease to be afterwards - far from it. But it was a secondary layer of identity, not the primary.

When the end of the Empire came, it was not because some wooly, hairy, unlettered savages from the misty forests of the North came in and destroyed civilization. It was because the leader of the Italian imperial field army, Odovacar, once again launched a revolt against imperial authority looking for a bigger slice of the pie, and decided that he could get a better deal from the Emperor in the East than from the Emperor in the West. It was just one more sordid elite-management fiasco in a century-long line of them. And it was four decades until everybody decided that that had unequivocally been the end of Rome in the West, and that only happened because the Emperors of the East decided they wanted to have an excuse to conquer Italy so they'd better spread some stories about Italy being overrun by "barbarians".

It's an incredibly complicated story, most of which has very little to do with what is commonly taught to students in secondary school, and almost none of which has to do with Attila. Hence my annoyance at the game's title.

At least with Napoleon: Total War one could plausibly argue that Bonaparte stamped his personality on Europe during the era in question unlike anyone else. One cannot discuss war and high politics from 1805 to 1815 without mentioning Napoleon, otherwise it makes no sense. He even managed to affect the law, economics, gender relations, and high culture. Attila, on the other hand, was an incidental player who had an admittedly dramatic and well-publicized cameo. Naming this game after Attila would be like naming X-Men: Days of Future Past after Quicksilver.
 

Medieval II doesn't need mods to shine.


Stainless Steel, Broken Crescent, Europa Barbarorum II.
 

Because really, there never was a unified Germany and there still isn't if we're talking ethnicity and cultural borders instead of dictated lines on a map drawn by politicians.


If your definition of a united nation-state is so stringent that literally no country in the entire world meets the definition, then it is a useless definition.

Germany is a united nation-state with a reasonably strong amount of cultural unification. That regional particular cultures exist within the continuum of Germanness does not change this. Neither does the existence of culturally distinct minorities. That's like saying there's no such thing as a united USA because of the Southeastern Conference and Mexican-Americans.
  • Dermain, A Crusty Knight Of Colour et Han Shot First aiment ceci

#32
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Gotta bookmark this stuff.

 

Seriously it's great. Keep on talking.

 

All we get from the history channel are Rednecks and Aliens now.


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#33
Fidite Nemini

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If your definition of a united nation-state is so stringent that literally no country in the entire world meets the definition, then it is a useless definition.

Germany is a united nation-state with a reasonably strong amount of cultural unification. That regional particular cultures exist within the continuum of Germanness does not change this. Neither does the existence of culturally distinct minorities. That's like saying there's no such thing as a united USA because of the Southeastern Conference and Mexican-Americans.

 

The cultural ethnicity of what can be identified as german encompasses much more than just the borders of the modern nation of Germany. Austria and Switzerland for one are of the same ethnicity and culture. A good chunk of what's now Poland and Tsecho-Slovakia has historically been german and there's still many traces left of its culture and ethnicity amond the people living in those regions right now.

 

 

And let's kid ourselves when talking about the formation of modern Germany itself, the only reason the nation of Germany isn't much bigger right now was the historic feud between the higher hierarchies of nobility of then present Austria-Hungary and the rest of Germany. There's a reason there was a debate about Groß- or Kleindeutschland when it came to the formation of Germany and it was not because Vienna Schnitzel was deemed ungerman. And even that wouldn't encompass much of the cultural borders.

 

The simple truth is that there is no Germany. There's lots of little Germanies and some of them unified and went on to trademark the title for their nation. The cultural identity of what's german is still very much like in the days of the Holy Roman Empire, we just traded hundreds of sovereign regions for a couple large sovereign regions.



#34
Aimi

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The cultural ethnicity of what can be identified as german encompasses much more than just the borders of the modern nation of Germany. Austria and Switzerland for one are of the same ethnicity and culture. A good chunk of what's now Poland and Tsecho-Slovakia has historically been german and there's still many traces left of its culture and ethnicity amond the people living in those regions right now.
 
 
And let's kid ourselves when talking about the formation of modern Germany itself, the only reason the nation of Germany isn't much bigger right now was the historic feud between the higher hierarchies of nobility of then present Austria-Hungary and the rest of Germany. There's a reason there was a debate about Groß- or Kleindeutschland when it came to the formation of Germany and it was not because Vienna Schnitzel was deemed ungerman. And even that wouldn't encompass much of the cultural borders.
 
The simple truth is that there is no Germany. There's lots of little Germanies and some of them unified and went on to trademark the title for their nation. The cultural identity of what's german is still very much like in the days of the Holy Roman Empire, we just traded hundreds of sovereign regions for a couple large sovereign regions.


Ah. You went the other direction: instead of saying Germany has too many non-Germans in it, you say that there are too many Germans outside Germany. I mean...it's still true, but it does not mean that Germany isn't "united", culturally or otherwise.

You mention the possible "solutions" to the German Question: grossdeutsch and kleindeutsch. That certainly implies that there are multiple ways of looking at the issue, and that defining "Germany" as a territorial space that encompasses the homes of all German-speakers is not the only definition - or even a popularly accepted one. The grossdeutsch advocates lost that argument long ago: first the philosophical argument, then the political argument, and finally, in 1866, the military argument. The only people who've tried to resurrect it since are the nationalist crazies like the Alldeutscher Verband and the Nazis. It would be stupid to let their ilk set the terms of the debate. It's not like people say "there is no such thing as united England" even though England contains a tiny minority of the world's English-speakers.

When people say "Germany", they mean the Federal Republic. And when people say "united Germany", they mean the post-Wiedervereinigung Federal Republic. And when people claim that Germany is not culturally united, they are talking about Turks, not about "gathering 'the Germans' in, Hitler-style".

People still adhere to German identity and exercise an amount of Germanness even outside Germany. So what? This isn't 1938. Swiss Germanness and Austrian Germanness aren't the same thing as German identity in the Federal Republic. Swiss Germans and Austrian Germans don't even want to be a part of the Federal Republic. They still exist on the same continuum - they still speak the same language (technically), and there are other elements of culture that bear similarity to ours - but that doesn't mean that cultural Germany is missing an essential piece that can only be (re?)claimed by bringing Austria, Switzerland, the Tirol, my apartment in America, and other "places where Germans live" under a single government.
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#35
Fidite Nemini

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When people say "Germany", they mean the Federal Republic. And when people say "united Germany", they mean the post-Wiedervereinigung Federal Republic. And when people claim that Germany is not culturally united, they are talking about Turks, not about "gathering 'the Germans' in, Hitler-style".

 

I was arguing the historic formation of the nation from an unpolitical standpoint, as I thought was the premise in this thread's context.

 

 

And I do sorely hope those many nudges towards Nazi mindsets are not aimed at me. Because if they are, they are for one terribly mistaken and secondly the end of this little historic excursion I thought we had.



#36
Aimi

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I was arguing the historic formation of the nation from an unpolitical standpoint, as I thought was the premise in this thread's context.
 
 
And I do sorely hope those many nudges towards Nazi mindsets are not aimed at me. Because if they are, they are for one terribly mistaken and secondly the end of this little historic excursion I thought we had.


It's not an "unpolitical standpoint" if you explicitly say that Germany has "never been united" from a "cultural" and "ethnic" standpoint and that this is because not all "Germans" live in "Germany". That is literally the set of assumptions that lie behind the grossdeutsch approach to German identity. It doesn't make you a Nazi at all, but it does mean that you're using those words in the same way they do...a way that most people nowadays would not use them.

To bring the conversation back to the fall of Rome, it's like this: the British historians Bryan Ward-Perkins and Peter Heather have described the fall of the West as having been creditable to a failure of managing immigrant policy. Heather baldly states that, starting around 370 or so, the Romans failed to keep the same tight control over their borders as they used to, so foreigners started swarming in. Those foreigners, according to Heather, maintained themselves in the Empire without assimilating as many of their forebears did: they stayed in the same communities they immigrated with, and used those communities to exercise political, and eventually military, power. The lesson, presumably, is that you can't let too many immigrants into your country, that you have to control who gets in and who does not carefully, and you have to keep the immigrants from sticking together because otherwise they'll DESTROY THE EMPIRE AND THERE'LL BE FUR-WEARING SAVAGES IN THE FORUM.

Neither Heather nor Ward-Perkins is a member of, say, the UK Independence Party. (As far as I know.) But their language is the exact same as UKIP's. And their message is incredibly exploitable by the likes of Nigel Farage. They would argue that they are unpolitical members of the historical academy, but there is no such thing as unpolitical history, and especially in this particular case, where their words and the assumptions underlying those words line up so closely with the actual message of a real political party.

Same with what you're saying. I don't think you're a Nazi. But your point about Germanness lines up very nicely with German ultranationalist talking points on greater Germany. Same with your definition of what "Germany" is, and your contention about whether it has ever been "united". These are not unpolitical historical facts, they are highly politically charged historical opinions. If you wished to be unpolitical, rather than boldly asserting greater Germany as the unvarnished truth, you might have instead said something along the lines of "some people might even argue that modern Germany is not united, because grossdeutsch kleindeutsch Austria Switzerland und so weiter". That, at least, would have been a token gesture towards objectivity.

I have no more interest in discussing politics than anyone else on this board, and a great deal less than most...which is why I'd prefer that you not endorse - implicitly or explicitly - a far-right interpretation of the word "Germany" as being true, and instead stick with something more neutral and widely accepted.
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#37
Kaiser Arian XVII

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In order:

Rome's military was never at any point weaker than the fighting forces of its northern opponents; Elton (1996) bears this out in rather dramatic fashion, listing all historically attested engagements between the Roman military and unambiguously external forces and coming up with a rather startlingly-in-Rome's-favor set of outcomes. Sure, the Romans lost some battles, but there's no such thing as an unambiguously perfect record for any military in history. Battle is a lottery, and even though the Romans could buy more tickets than anybody else, they couldn't buy all of them. The series of events that is conventionally held to indicate the fall of the Western Empire - Odovacar's 476 coup against the government of Orestes and Romvlvs Avgvstvlvs - had nothing to do with external military pressure.

Rome was, if anything, more centralized under the later Empire than it was before Caracalla granted citizenship to all free adult Roman males in 212. The later Emperors ruled what is sometimes referred to as the "Dominate" (as opposed to the earlier "Principate"), marked, ostensibly, by a growth of the imperial bureaucracy at the expense of local leadership and the senatorial aristocracy. More recent historians have shown that this is a false dichotomy. Either way, though, the problems of centralization existed throughout the Empire's existence and there was nothing particularly special about the late fourth century and fifth century that changed them in a meaningful way. It's basically impossible for me to see what Caracalla's citizenship edict has to do with the fall of the West; there's no obvious causative link, and the two things are separated by 250 years.

And the claim that the extension of the franchise was a Bad Thing is immediately contradicted by the next point, which claims that Rome was too diverse, not insufficiently diverse. More inhabitants of the Roman Empire considered themselves Romans first and other things second in the fourth century than they did in the first century. There was regional variation, sure, but there is always regional variation, especially outside the aristocracy. When the various provinces went their own way in the late fifth century, it was not because they were insufficiently loyal to the Empire. Quite the opposite: I would argue that it was instead because the Empire was insufficiently loyal to them.

The Hunnic invasions were quite devastating. But they did not cause the fall of the West. Attila and the Huns raided the Balkan provinces of the Eastern Empire for a decade. They caused incalculable property damage, thousands of deaths, enslaved thousands more, and forced the imperial treasury in Constantinople to disgorge millions of gold pieces into Attila's hands. Then, the Huns turned west and launched two vicious unsuccessful campaigns that did not result in any tribute. If the Hunnic invasions of 451 and 452 were so bad that they contributed to the collapse of the Western Empire, why didn't the much worse incursions of the 440s cause the collapse of the Eastern Empire? What, precisely, is the line of causation between the Battle of the Campus Mauriacus and the abdication of Avgvstvlvs?

The second-to-last point, the loss of Africa, is something I wholeheartedly agree with as a major cause of the end of Rome in the West. It is no coincidence that the last Emperor in Italy fell within a few years of the last failed attempts to recapture Africa (in 468 and 471). Vandal conquest of Africa represented a humongous revenue loss for Rome, the severance of the Carthage-Rome trade spine (the single most important economic pipeline in the world at that point), the emergence of a pirate threat in hitherto-quiescent Mediterranean waters, and the end of the city of Rome's cheap food supply.

The Sasanian Empire was, to all intents and purposes, irrelevant to the fall of Rome in the West. It was a security threat to the Eastern Empire when it was a security threat to any Romans at all, and the East did not fall. For most of the fifth century, Constantinople and Tisifon were at peace anyway.

---

Africa was important, but the reason Africa was lost to Rome was because it was captured by the Vandals and Alans. And it was captured by the Vandals and Alans because the Western Roman military was so busy fighting itself that it didn't have the ability to defend the province. From 380 onward, the Roman military was engaged in a series of destructive, endless civil wars. They started because the Western Emperors had begun to fail at elite management. For most of the fourth century, the Western Emperors were generally competent: they were able to balance the patronage needs of Gallic and Italian interests. In 380, the Emperor Gratianvs failed at maintaining the balancing act, and the general Magnvs Maximvs revolted with Gaul as his base. Maximvs's rebellion eventually failed, but successive Emperors consistently failed to fix the underlying problem of elite management and relied on winning the inevitable civil wars to keep Gaul in line.

In 405-07, the Emperor Honorivs and his generalissimo, Stilicho, were confronted simultaneously by several threats. Firstly, Stilicho was trying to fight the Constantinopolitan government. His main weapon in this war was the field army of Alareiks, which switched sides frequently and required a great deal of finesse to manage. Secondly, Stilicho faced an invasion from the north of a broad collection of allegedly migratory "barbarians" led by one Radagaisvs. He successfully defeated this group at Faesvlae and enslaved the survivors. Thirdly, he was beset with an invasion over the Rhine by the Alans, Asdings, Silings, and Sueves, which he completely failed to address. And fourthly, he was attacked by the rebellious forces of the usurper Constantinvs "III" in Britannia, Gaul, and Hispania. This combination of threats - the most dangerous of which came from Eastern Rome and the Western rebel army - overloaded the imperial military and caused its near collapse.

Eventually, Honorivs's military climbed back from the brink under the leadership of the general Constantivs, who reestablished control over Alareiks' field army, crushed the Rhine invaders and drove the few survivors into Hispania, and annihilated the rebels in Gaul. Constantivs looked like he had everything under control, with only the last sad remnants of the Vandals, Alans, and Sueves to deal with, but his death in 423 precipitated another civil war. During the confusion, the Rhine invaders invaded Africa, and then they conquered it in the midst of yet another civil war. The eventual winner of the struggle for imperial primacy, the general Aetivs, was less competent than Constantivs and failed to recapture Africa, northern Gaul, or most of Hispania. Aetivs's eventual death precipitated yet another struggle for power...and so on, and so forth.

The key problem was that the Emperors who ruled the West for most of this time period - Gratianvs, Valentinianvs II, Honorivs, and Valentinianvs III - were incompetents in the most basic of ways. They could not exercise even a modicum of control over their own aristocracies or their own militaries. It was left to powerful generals and statesmen to exercise real control from behind the scenes, but these generals never had the secure authority that the Emperors would have had. And nobody resolved the issue of managing the competing Gallic and Italian aristocracies until it was, to all intents and purposes, too late. The civil wars that were spawned from this failure of basic governance lay at the heart of each and every one of the West's problems.

It was by no means certain that, having become embroiled in civil war, the West was irrevocably doomed. Far from it. Rome had faced civil war before, and survived quite nicely. That's what the East managed to do, after all. But the West was struck with a run of rather awful luck: every time somebody appeared to be close to putting the pieces back together properly, something went wrong. Theodosivs I put the Empire back together but died and left two incompetent sons in charge of the whole thing. Constantivs put the Empire back together and died of pleurisy right before his final triumph. Later strongmen and Emperors - Aetivs, Maiorianvs, Anthemivs - came reasonably close to achieving something but suffered from a similar bit of bad luck. Anthemivs's Africa invasion fleet, for instance, was destroyed because the wind off Cape Bon had an unseasonable turn that allowed Vandal fireships a once-in-a-lifetime chance to close on a helplessly trapped target. Without that change in the breeze, Africa probably would've been back in Roman hands, and that could've changed everything.

And the remarkable thing was that the Empire died in spite of the fact that literally nobody wanted to destroy it. Instead, the various squabbling generals were each aiming for a better position within a functioning, powerful Rome. Many so-called "barbarians" - who were, in many cases, simply Roman-born officers in charge of Roman field armies, only some of whom had distant ancestors from over the border - were in the same boat. It was only after a century (380-476) of blatantly obvious evidence that the Empire was broken that they started to act less as Roman grandees and soldiers and more as the rulers of their own little pocket kingdoms.

Sussing out which of these men were barbarians and which were Romans is a bit of a joke. Historical convention, for example, labels the shadowy realm of Syagrivs and Aegidivs, centered on Noviodvnvm in Gaul, as the "Dominion of Soissons [sic]", a loyal Roman province that survived the fall of the West for some years. Its chief competitor was the realm of the "Franci", led by Childericvs and Chlodovechvs, which is described as a "barbarian" kingdom. Chlodovechvs eventually defeated Syagrivs, conquered his lands, and came to rule all Gaul, which eventually gained the name Francia after his kingdom, or France. Yet there was no meaningful difference between the two sides. Aegidivs and Childericvs were both born within the Empire, and led elements of the Roman military. Each obeyed and disobeyed various Emperors based on which way the political winds were blowing; they eventually both struck out on their own when it became clear that there was no real benefit to allying with whoever was flavor of the week in Italy. The only thing was, Chlodovechvs survived and had to create a founding mythos for his kingdom, so he drew on the "Franci"; Syagrivs didn't, so he was left as a Roman by default. The same situation obtained everywhere else. New identities were created wholesale, or elevated from obscurity to supersede a defunct Roman identity that lacked the same sort of cachet that it once had. Romanness did not cease to be afterwards - far from it. But it was a secondary layer of identity, not the primary.

When the end of the Empire came, it was not because some wooly, hairy, unlettered savages from the misty forests of the North came in and destroyed civilization. It was because the leader of the Italian imperial field army, Odovacar, once again launched a revolt against imperial authority looking for a bigger slice of the pie, and decided that he could get a better deal from the Emperor in the East than from the Emperor in the West. It was just one more sordid elite-management fiasco in a century-long line of them. And it was four decades until everybody decided that that had unequivocally been the end of Rome in the West, and that only happened because the Emperors of the East decided they wanted to have an excuse to conquer Italy so they'd better spread some stories about Italy being overrun by "barbarians".
 

 

My mistake to rely on my historic knowledge that is around 3-10 years old and I never read much about post-Constantine Roman Empire. I mostly used what I remembered from Gibbon, Montesquieu and Toynbee's interpretation of Roman Empire's fall.

 

But seeing from the political aspect, the Alliance with Persia would be a great assistance for the empire. Too sad, they had not any cooperation against the barbarians and at the end the real enemy were the barbarians (Germans, Arabs, Central Asian tribes).



#38
L. Han

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I fail to see why this game can't be a stand-alone expansion of the current total war game. It would remove so much bad press and make it seem like they are still giving support to Rome 2!



#39
Inquisitor Recon

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In order:

Rome's military was never at any point weaker than the fighting forces of its northern opponents; Elton (1996) bears this out in rather dramatic fashion, listing all historically attested engagements between the Roman military and unambiguously external forces and coming up with a rather startlingly-in-Rome's-favor set of outcomes. Sure, the Romans lost some battles, but there's no such thing as an unambiguously perfect record for any military in history. Battle is a lottery, and even though the Romans could buy more tickets than anybody else, they couldn't buy all of them. The series of events that is conventionally held to indicate the fall of the Western Empire - Odovacar's 476 coup against the government of Orestes and Romvlvs Avgvstvlvs - had nothing to do with external military pressure.

The legions themselves were however quite the step back compared to the legions at the height of the empire. They more or less became light infantry unlike their predecessor from eras past. Most of the "barbarians" were just as well equipped and organized as the Roman legions at that point. A stagnation of military development was not the sole cause of Rome's demise but it certainly didn't help matters. Somebody competent trying to end a civil war and restore some degree of order could have probably done a lot more with legions from a few hundred years before him.

I've got to wonder how exactly did architecture and so many other fields were the Romans were once experts seemed to suddenly revert hundreds of years. Did somebody bury an axe in the skull of the last guy in all the Western world who knew how to build like the Romans did? Maybe things were different some parts of the Italian peninsula but elsewhere (Britain for example) it seems that throwing up wooden structures with filthy hay flooring was the standard to go by. Even settlements built around old Roman construction were quite poor in comparison.
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#40
AventuroLegendary

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#41
Jock Cranley

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Well, this looks interesting. 

 

 

The legions themselves were however quite the step back compared to the legions at the height of the empire. They more or less became light infantry unlike their predecessor from eras past. Most of the "barbarians" were just as well equipped and organized as the Roman legions at that point. A stagnation of military development was not the sole cause of Rome's demise but it certainly didn't help matters. Somebody competent trying to end a civil war and restore some degree of order could have probably done a lot more with legions from a few hundred years before him.

I've got to wonder how exactly did architecture and so many other fields were the Romans were once experts seemed to suddenly revert hundreds of years. Did somebody bury an axe in the skull of the last guy in all the Western world who knew how to build like the Romans did? Maybe things were different some parts of the Italian peninsula but elsewhere (Britain for example) it seems that throwing up wooden structures with filthy hay flooring was the standard to go by. Even settlements built around old Roman construction were quite poor in comparison.

 

Trickle-down idiocy tbh. Bad leadership tends to ruin everything.



#42
ME_Fan

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TOTAL WAR: NEW WORLD

 

- A reimagining on a much grander scale the Americas campaign of MIIK. You start off in the early 16th century as either an early colonial power just making it first steps of discovery in the new world, or an indian faction with primitive technology but knowledge of the lands.

 

-As opposed to the Americas campaign, it could span the entirety of the continents, from the Northern passages down to the southern Andes. Additional colony towns are landed by the colonial powers over the course of the early game. The creation of plantations early on is crucial to getting the colonies off their feet, as trade with the home nations is key to a successful campaign. The conquest of indian lands is easier early on than having to face down other western nations.

 

-The campaign leads all the way to the end of the 18th century, and social and economic changes overtime may cause the creation of New countries such as the United States, Mexico and Gran Columbia, a more dangerous threat, gradually replacing the indian factions.

 

-On the battlefield, the western nations will progress technology from the late-medieval era all the way to the height of line infantry and tall ships, starting off with primitive units like armoured conquistadors and galleons, and finishing with modern artillery, rifles, and ships of the line. As for the indian nations, those that do survive to mid/late game develop greater passive bonuses against attrition, and the ability to forge their own firearms.

 

 

 

 

^want



#43
Kaiser Arian XVII

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Calling conquistadors and galleons primitive is an insult.



#44
ME_Fan

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*rolls eyes* yes they were very effective in their own time, but compared to line infantry and HMS Victory they are primitive. By the mid 17th century conquistadors had long gone and galleons started being phased out at the start of the 18th.



#45
Aimi

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The legions themselves were however quite the step back compared to the legions at the height of the empire. They more or less became light infantry unlike their predecessor from eras past. Most of the "barbarians" were just as well equipped and organized as the Roman legions at that point. A stagnation of military development was not the sole cause of Rome's demise but it certainly didn't help matters. Somebody competent trying to end a civil war and restore some degree of order could have probably done a lot more with legions from a few hundred years before him.


Not really. Elton (1996) is still the gold standard here. Roman infantry were the class of the world and employed both heavily armored and lightly armored troops; Roman cavalry was numerous and diversified. More importantly, Elton showed that tactically, unambiguously "Roman" armies crushed unambiguously "barbarian" armies almost every time, even when everything was falling apart at the turn of the fifth century. Romans were more numerous and armed with the industrial output of an empire with millions of souls; the people beyond the frontier were not numerous, relied on barely-above-subsistence agriculture, and did not have the luxury of mass-produced excellent war matériel.

The problems arose when Roman armies fought each other. When Alareiks and his 'Goths' - which were not an external barbarian foe but a Roman field army recruited from Roman citizens who lived inside the Empire fighting in a Roman style and armed with Roman weapons - tried conclusions with the Army of the Emperor's Presence under Stilicho, things were a lot more even than they were when Stilicho wiped out the invaders led by Radagaisvs. It would not have mattered if the armaments available to the Romans were 10 AD standard, 410 AD standard, or 2010 AD standard: they were the same on both sides, just as they were in the Year of Four Emperors or in the civil war of 193 or any other of the countless Roman internal struggles.

Competent leaders arose, more than once: Theodosivs I, Constantivs III, Maiorianvs, Anthemivs. Each came close to restoring the Empire as it was; each was profoundly unlucky. Luck is a Thing in history, and sometimes sh*t happens. The Romans were lucky to have had the long run of militarily competent Emperors that they did in the fourth century; they were equally unlucky to have had the long run of militarily incompetent Emperors that they did in the fifth century.

I've got to wonder how exactly did architecture and so many other fields were the Romans were once experts seemed to suddenly revert hundreds of years. Did somebody bury an axe in the skull of the last guy in all the Western world who knew how to build like the Romans did? Maybe things were different some parts of the Italian peninsula but elsewhere (Britain for example) it seems that throwing up wooden structures with filthy hay flooring was the standard to go by. Even settlements built around old Roman construction were quite poor in comparison.


There's still a lot we don't know about a lot of this part of history. But generally people accept that the Great Simplification was less a matter of people turning into idiots and more a matter of a loss of high-level organization and of surpluses. Individual magnates or rulers didn't have the political or economic ability to manage the kinds of projects that Rome had managed. An example: once, Rome had maintained massive armies on the Rhine river, supplied by British grain, a trade that was greased with copious amounts of imperial gold; when those armies vanished, so too did the market for that grain. Even in places that quite unambiguously did not "lose" any knowledge, like the remnant of the Roman Empire in the East, many of Rome's old massive public works were abandoned. Constantinople's aqueduct was shut down for centuries because compared to the basic needs of imperial defense, keeping the capital supplied with enough fresh water for a huge population was a luxury.

The period was still marked by great feats of engineering and organization. Look at the massive post-Roman fortification in England named for Offa of Mercia, for example. But they were subordinated to what the rulers of the time considered to be practical needs: the Mercian dike was supposedly built to help guard against Welsh raids.
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#46
AventuroLegendary

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The Goths, Vandals, Alans and Sassanids have been "revealed".

 

Come to think of it, I dislike that the Huns are being turned into Mongols 2.0. They were fine in Barbarian Invasion as a playable faction.

 

Also, city view won't be a thing even after 10 years, which is disappointing. I would have enjoyed seeing cities function outside of war, seeing as civilians are given more of a role.


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#47
AventuroLegendary

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It looks like playable factions from BI, with the exception of the Alemanni and (obviously) Huns, have been confirmed to be playable for the base game. There are three new "viking" factions available... as DLC.

 

 

This has got to be some kind of cruel joke.



#48
AventuroLegendary

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The family trees and politically system explained in detail. It also shows various non-playable factions. 

 

I can see a Germanic culture pack including the Suebi and Alemanni in the future. Maybe for Slavs and Celts too.



#49
Alan Rickman

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Really happy to see the family trees again, one of my only remaining gripes with Rome 2 is how playing a campaign often feels so detached and impersonal with how you manage the politics and your generals.


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#50
AventuroLegendary

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Just realized they're releasing their trailers in order of the four horsemen. The Red Horse is here.

 

Really happy to see the family trees again, one of my only remaining gripes with Rome 2 is how playing a campaign often feels so detached and impersonal with how you manage the politics and your generals.

 

Yeah. It's awesome how Paradox-ish they're trying to make the family tree/diplomacy system. They tried in Rome 2 with rebellions and "civil wars" but failed horribly /crosses fingers