584 réponses à ce sujet

[Palidane]

I'd rather not have him in game at all. His life cycle in-game was supposed to be over in Origins, back when he was just a minor NPC. But, no, he had to become a Knight-Captain (!) of Templars in Kirkwall, second most important person after Meredith herself. And, mind you, my first playthrough was continued from my Magi Origin save, where Cullen goes crazy (!!) and kills two apprentices (!!!) before running into the unknown. But, no, that had to be retconned. 

"retconned"

 

Anyway, the fact is that there are not a lot of professional soldiers running around in a feudalistic society, and Southern Thedas hasn't had a whole ton of warfare happening in the past few years. Come to think of it, I can only think of four incidents that could really be described as battles:

1. The Ferelden-Orlesian War, and all associated battles.
2. The Battle of Denerim
3. The Qunari Invasion of Kirkwall
4. The Battle at the Gallows

Cullen was in every major battle that happened within his lifetime, and acted as a commander and leader in two of them. What's more, he has a 100% victory rate, as the Warden's coalition won at Denerim, the Kirkwall threw back the Qunari, and the Templars destroyed The Circle. The only other guys I can think of who could rival that is Loghain MacTir and Gaspard de Chalons, neither of which would be acceptable as Generals because of their politics. Ferelden isn't letting an army commanded by Gaspard get within a hundred miles of their border, and I'm sure the same is true of Loghain and Orlais.

[Lingvort]

Leliana is writer favourite  pet same as Liara

Aye  . I mean, I like them both, but the fact that Liara can't die till the very end of ME3 (and that's only with the Extended Cut), and Leliana can die but it will be immediately retconned, gets me annoyed beyond measure. 

[9TailsFox]

I played through DA2 recently and I'm fairly certain that he has although you may stick to that opinion and claim him saying that "such large amount of magic might destroy us all" to be anti-mage. 

It's just logical. Magic is dangerous.

Stating fact is not anti magic "such large army might destroy us all" same think. Calling mages not people is anti magic. And 

Spoiler

The young templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered.”

[Lingvort]

"retconned"

Oh, you do? So, "retcon", or "retroactive continuity" doesn't mean that the established canon (storylines, narratives, characters, etc) gets re-established in the middle of the story, changing the original outcome? If that's not what it means, then I indeed don't know what it means.

[Icy Magebane]

Stating fact is not anti magic "such large army might destroy us all" same think. Calling mages not people is anti magic. And 

Spoiler

The young templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered.”

What you wrote in the spoiler was dismissed as a rumor long ago.  It never happened according to Bioware's canon, so it can't be used to analyze Cullen's character.

[Muspade]

Stating fact is not anti magic "such large army might destroy us all" same think. Calling mages not people is anti magic. And 

Spoiler

The young templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered.”

 

Citing an epilogue screen from the original game which has proven false does not aid your argument.

[Palidane]

Oh, you do? So, "retcon", or "retroactive continuity" doesn't mean that the established canon (storylines, narratives, characters, etc) gets re-established in the middle of the story, changing the original outcome? If that's not what it means, then I indeed don't know what it means.

A brand new game is "the middle of the story"? What original outcome? Your Warden tried to kill Leliana, and thought that she succeeded. Just because you don't like the consequences of your actions doesn't mean you can scream retcon. What next? "OMG retcon! I thought Harrowmont was the good guy, but he turned out to be a loser! Why doesn't everything go exactly how I expect it too?"

[Patchwork]

Especially when it's one of many possible slides.

[franciscoamell]

I hate Cullen since DAO and I really really don't like what I've seen of Leliana in DAI so far (that Redcliffe demo painted her in a terrible light) so it'll always be either Josephine's way or MY way. >:3 Yeah I'm biased as hell lol.

[9TailsFox]

What you wrote in the spoiler was dismissed as a rumor long ago.  It never happened according to Bioware's canon, so it can't be used to analyze Cullen's character.

Retcon even worse. And thanks Scoutyo for full line. 

"His exact line is "Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me. They are weapons. They have the power to light a city on fire in a fit of pique." So you wrong, you can sugar coat what Cullen said. It means same Cullen thinks mages dangerous and must be locked and it is irrelevant if person committed crime or not.

[Palidane]

Retcon even worse. And thanks Scoutyo for full line. 

"His exact line is "Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me. They are weapons. They have the power to light a city on fire in a fit of pique." So you wrong, you can sugar coat what Cullen said. It means same Cullen thinks mages dangerous and must be locked and it is irrelevant if person committed crime or not.

Well, he's not wrong. Ex: Tevinter.

[Icy Magebane]

Retcon even worse. And thanks scoty for full line Nope. 

"His exact line is "Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me. They are weapons. They have the power to light a city on fire in a fit of pique."  (source)" So you wrong, you can sugar coat what Cullen said. It means same Cullen thinks mages dangerous and must be locked and it is irrelevant if person committed crime or not.

I disagree.  Even with the full and correct quote (which you initially misquoted btw... I had nothing to do with bringing this up), there is no malice in this statement.  It is a fact that mages are living weapons and it is a fact that they can light a city on fire anytime they want.  As such, they need to be handled differently.  At no point does he make mention of treating them like criminals (the Cricle is not a prison) or animals, that is simply your opinion of the Circle coloring your interpretation.

[Lingvort]

A brand new game is "the middle of the story"? What original outcome? Your Warden tried to kill Leliana, and thought that she succeeded. Just because you don't like the consequences of your actions doesn't mean you can scream retcon. What next? "OMG retcon! I thought Harrowmont was the good guy, but he turned out to be a loser! Why doesn't everything go exactly how I expect it too?"

I was talking about retcon in general, and not about any story in particular. Therefore, the original outcome could be anything, since I wasn't referring to DA. Who said I didn't like the consequences? I'm perfectly fine with them. I'm not fine with how the choice I've made didn't matter in the end. Leliana is dead? "Umm, nope, sorry". Ah, well.

 

No, that won't happen. Although I rarely pick Harrowmont on my playthroughs nowadays, I'm always fine with him screwing up in the end and living with the consequences. I've made a choice and it had this outcome, and I'm fine with that. In "Leliana dies" situation, I've made a choice and it didn't matter. If you think I'm complaining about nothing and it for some reason gets you pissed off, fine, feel free to think so. I'm certainly not trying to stop you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Retcon even worse.

Whether or not it's a retcon depends on whether Gaider at any point intended for that to be true, which I don't know that he did. This is at any rate irrelevant to the current discussion given that we're trying to analyze Cullen's canonical character and material that was either retconned or never true doesn't help with that.

[Samahl]

Man, what's with all the Cullen hate? I get it if you don't like templars or are sick of his fanbase, but I think his qualifications are pretty incontrovertible. Who else would you have step up as High General?

 

Because all he wants to do is throw templars at the problem? He honestly doesn't seem all that qualified to me.

[franciscoamell]

the Cricle is not a prison

Of course it is. They can't leave if they want to, they don't choose to move there, they're brought back or killed if they escape.

[Ryzaki]

Yep. Josephine will probably be favored.

[9TailsFox]

A brand new game is "the middle of the story"? What original outcome? Your Warden tried to kill Leliana, and thought that she succeeded. Just because you don't like the consequences of your actions doesn't mean you can scream retcon. What next? "OMG retcon! I thought Harrowmont was the good guy, but he turned out to be a loser! Why doesn't everything go exactly how I expect it too?"

Warden not tried, warden killed Leliana, you can see cold dead corpses and loot. Leliana is definition of retcon. And because of outcry Bioware promised to "explain" writer are smart they will easy think something , especially in world with magic.

Harrowmont is good how? He is traditionalist all dwarf cast system is horrible, it was so clear Harrowmont will be bad rule. 

[Muspade]

Because all he wants to do is throw templars at the problem? He honestly doesn't seem all that qualified to me.

 

The reverse argument can be made for Lelianna and Cassandra. They just want to throw mages at the problem. They don't seem very "qualified" either, in that case?

Leliana is definition of retcon

 

The urn of sacred ashes. Lyrium mountain...Go figure.

Cullen was retconned. Lelianna was not.

[TammieAZ]

Oh yeah ..it ain't right to be baise tho . 

[Icy Magebane]

Of course it is. They can't leave if they want to, they don't choose to move there, they're brought back or killed if they escape.

It's a sanctuary, or a quarantine zone at worst... Kirkwall's abusive Circle was an exception to the rules.  It is uncharacteristic for mages to be kept in their rooms against their will and using the Rite of Tranquility against a Harrowed mage is illegal.  Clearly you have no objection to abominations randomly popping up in crowded cities, so I doubt you will see any logic in my argument, but the fact is that magic has a lot of negative side-effects that make it necessary to segregate those touched by it from the rest of the population...

[9TailsFox]

I disagree.  Even with the full and correct quote (which you initially misquoted btw... I had nothing to do with bringing this up), there is no malice in this statement.  It is a fact that mages are living weapons and it is a fact that they can light a city on fire anytime they want.  As such, they need to be handled differently.  At no point does he make mention of treating them like criminals (the Cricle is not a prison) or animals, that is simply your opinion of the Circle coloring your interpretation.

It exactly is prison. You can choose to stay or leave die. Chantry take kid from parents for crimes they didn't commit and Cullen jobs to enforce this system. And he have no problem with it.

[Palidane]

I was talking about retcon in general, and not about any story in particular. Therefore, the original outcome could be anything, since I wasn't referring to DA. Who said I didn't like the consequences? I'm perfectly fine with them. I'm not fine with how the choice I've made didn't matter in the end. Leliana is dead? "Umm, nope, sorry". Ah, well.

 

No, that won't happen. Although I rarely pick Harrowmont on my playthroughs nowadays, I'm always fine with him screwing up in the end and living with the consequences. I've made a choice and it had this outcome, and I'm fine with that. In "Leliana dies" situation, I've made a choice and it didn't matter. If you think I'm complaining about nothing and it for some reason gets you pissed off, fine, feel free to think so. I'm certainly not trying to stop you.

You tried to kill Leliana, and it didn't work. You thought it worked, but she survived. Considering this is a setting with healing magic, she dies three feet from an urn filled with magical healing ashes, and she already has some kind of connection with the Maker, there's a lot of different ways that could have happened. I don't see the Retcon.

 

Because all he wants to do is throw templars at the problem? He honestly doesn't seem all that qualified to me.

Well yeah, he's a military commander. At the end of the day, all his solutions are going to have something to do with throwing guys with swords at problems. Just like Leliana and her spies and Josephine and her diplomats.

 

I mean, did you see Leliana's solution to the Varric operation. "Huh, some guy in Kirkwall is violating Varric's copyright? BETTER HIRE THE ANTIVAN CROWS!" I mean, damn girl, think outside the box.

[Icy Magebane]

It exactly is prison. You can choose to stay or leave die. Chantry take kid from parents for crimes they didn't commit and Cullen jobs to enforce this system. And he have no problem with it.

Considering the fact that mages live in greater luxury than the average Thedosian peasant could ever imagine, I find it hard to agree with this comparison.  Alienage elves probably feel like they died and went to heaven when they arrive at the Circle for the first time... lol

 

The only similarities to prison are the Templar overseers and punishments for escape attempts.  Obviously they can't allow mages to leave whenever they want because that would defeat the purpose of segregating them in the first place... and you keep going on about "crimes" for some reason when it is made very clear in every bit of lore that mages are put in the Circle primarily because they are at risk of becoming possessed by demons and will kill indiscriminately if they become abominations.  Whether or not the mage will use their powers responsibly is a separate concern, and nowhere near as serious as the possibility of random possession and acts of violence by supernatural beings that use mages to cross over into the mortal realm...

[sylvanaerie]

It exactly is prison. You can choose to stay or leave die. Chantry take kid from parents for crimes they didn't commit and Cullen jobs to enforce this system. And he have no problem with it.

Actually by the time DA2 ends he has 'a lot of problems' with it.  And he will voice these concerns to Hawke in Act 3.  It's not so clear cut as that.