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[Lingvort]

You tried to kill Leliana, and it didn't work. You thought it worked, but she survived. Considering this is a setting with healing magic, she dies three feet from an urn filled with magical healing ashes, and she already has some kind of connection with the Maker, there's a lot of different ways that could have happened. I don't see the Retcon.

Well, what happens if I "tried" killing Leliana by cutting her head off? Not to mention that I've defiled the Ashes, and have already taken some of them with me, whatever remains is pretty scarce. You can disregard my example with her getting decapitated, since the game doesn't take a technical difference into the account. Her "connection" is put in doubt by the Guardian, who's, by this point, a supernatural being, capable of reading people's minds, their thoughts, knowing their past, etc. 

 

I agree that if some of the Ashes were left, and if Leliana was lethally stabbed and left to die, she could've survived. A slim chance, but an existent one. But, if I did cut her head off, that puts her survival at a significant risk... Alas, it doesn't matter in the slightest.

[9TailsFox]

Considering the fact that mages live in greater luxury than the average Thedosian peasant could ever imagine, I find it hard to agree with this comparison.  Alienage elves probably feel like they died and went to heaven when they arrive at the Circle for the first time... lol

 

The only similarities to prison are the Templar overseers and punishments for escape attempts.  Obviously they can't allow mages to leave whenever they want because that would defeat the purpose of segregating them in the first place... and you keep going on about "crimes" for some reason when it is made very clear in every bit of lore that mages are put in the Circle primarily because they are at risk of becoming possessed by demons and will kill indiscriminately if they become abominations.

I rather live free, safe and poor. Than be slave, and live in fear to be beaten or killed if templer who watch at me wrong, no possibility to see or have family. Thank you.

And what genius think to put mages in one place, yes we will make huge magic concentration in one spot what could go wrong. .Circle is just time bomb waiting to explode. All powerfull people who want freedom + veil damage.

[Samahl]

The reverse argument can be made for Lelianna and Cassandra. They just want to throw mages at the problem. They don't seem very "qualified" either, in that case?

 

Except Leliana and Cassandra actually have evidence that their approach would work - it's not throwing mages at the problem, it's powering up the Inquisitor enough to close the breach, as they've done before with Fade rifts.

[Samahl]

Well, what happens if I "tried" killing Leliana by cutting her head off?

 

To be fair, you could also cut Howe's head off and still have the ensuing cutscene with him.

[sylvanaerie]

If you killed her, Leliana perished in a consecrated spot, that's been consecrated for centuries.  Spoiling the ashes isn't going to destroy the amount of True Faith permeating that place.  Several of your companions remark on it (those who aren't completely jaded or insensitive to that kind of thing). 

The Guardian is a spirit, not flesh, I truly doubt he is dead.  Who's to say he didn't reform and heal her after the warden left?  Who's to say the maker didn't revive Leliana for some plan he has for her in the future?  I don't know what happened.  Maybe we'll find out, maybe we won't.

I don't know what Bioware's direction with this is, but the fact is, this is a high magic fantasy world of their making.  We don't know everything about all the mysteries of Thedas.   We may never know it all.  We may get an explanation, I don't know.  I'm willing to hold on to the handlebars and go along for the ride as long as I can.

[Muspade]

Except Leliana and Cassandra actually have evidence that their approach would work - it's not throwing mages at the problem, it's powering up the Inquisitor enough to close the breach, as they've done before with Fade rifts.

 

And Cullen suggests that Templars could weaken the rift with the Templar's anti-magic capabilities, thereby making it weak enough for the inquisitor to close to the rift, and as the Fade is where magic originates from and Templar's are taught anti-magic through lyrium use and discipline...???

Well, I'm not seeing how only one of these approaches is speculation. As the Inquisitor says "What harm can there be in powering up something we barely understand?" /Sarcasm Inquisitor.

[Lingvort]

To be fair, you could also cut Howe's head off and still have the ensuing cutscene with him.

Good point, but I've never been able to kill him off with a death blow for some reason, just throwing it out there.

[Icy Magebane]

I rather live free, safe and poor. Than be slave, and live in fear to be beaten or killed if templer who watch at me wrong, no possibility to see or have family. Thank you.

And what genius think to put mages in one place, yes we will make huge magic concentration in one spot what could go wrong. .Circle is just time bomb waiting to explode. All powerfull people who want freedom + veil damage.

Good for you.  Just so you know, saying something doesn't make it true.  Circle mages are not slaves, they do not live in constant fear, and are not randomly beaten or abused except by corrupt Templars.  Beyond that, abuse can happen anywhere, anytime by corrupt City Guards as well, and as I've mentioned, it's within the rights of any dwarf to do these things to one of the Casteless.  Killing an elf is also not considered illegal in most parts of Thedas, and is even a requirement for all Chevaliers as part of their initiation rituals.  Furthermore, the human rulers of every nation reserve the right to order their soldiers to purge alienages whenever they feel like it.  The Rite of Annulment is only used in cases where the Circle has been irreparably compromised, and not as a punitive measure to keep mages subservient.

 

Mages are in the Circle because both their powers and the demons that they attract pose serious threats to society that non-mages should not be subjected to simply because a mage wants to be free, regardless of how that might affect others.

 

Either way, this is getting totally off-topic so I'm just going to have to leave it at that unless you have something else to say about Cullen, Josephine, or Leliana...

[Samahl]

And Cullen suggests that Templars could weaken the rift with the Templar's anti-magic capabilities, thereby making it weak enough for the inquisitor to close to the rift, and as the Fade is where magic origins from and Templar's are taught anti-magic through use lyrium and discipline.

 

And have any templars so far been able to close rifts? I mean, to be fair, we don't know yet, as the game hasn't come out, but unless Leliana and Cassandra are remaining willfully ignorant to previous successes, I don't know why they would object.

 

Well, I'm not seeing how only one of these approaches is speculation. As the Inquisitor says "What harm can there be in powering up something we barely understand?" /Sarcasm Inquisitor.

 

Cullen's approach is "this might be dangerous, so let's try something completely theoretical", while Leliana and Cassandra's approach is "we know this works, so let's stick with this".

[Muspade]

And have any templars so far been able to close rifts? I mean, to be fair, we don't know yet, as the game hasn't come out, but unless Leliana and Cassandra are remaining willfully ignorant to previous successes, I don't know why they would object.

Cullen's approach is "this might be dangerous, so let's try something completely theoretical", while Leliana and Cassandra's approach is "we know this works, so let's stick with this".

 

I don't believe anyone has powered up the Inquisitors fade-hand before, Samahl so it is as much as speculation as any other. The Inquisitor just received the power and immediately attempted to close the Breach afterwards, no powerup required, as far as we know.

[Killdren88]

The problem if we wanted to attack someone, Cullen will be the one who attacks. Because looks like he is in charge of army.

 

I hope there is an option to assume command of your army instead of Cullen.

[Samahl]

I don't believe anyone has powered up the Inquisitors fade-hand before, Samahl so it is as much as speculation as any other. The Inquisitor just received the power and immediately attempted to close the Breach afterwards, no powerup required, as far as we know.

 

But the mark has been used to close rifts. That's why the Inquisitor is leading the Inquisition - they are the only one who appears to be capable of managing the Breach. It's true that it's anyone's guess as to what will happen if it's powered up, but the evidence suggests that it has to be the Inquisitor one way or another.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It exactly is prison. You can choose to stay or leave die. Chantry take kid from parents for crimes they didn't commit and Cullen jobs to enforce this system. And he have no problem with it.

It's more a quarantine or preventative detention, since they're not actually doing it to punish the mages.

[Muspade]

But the mark has been used to close rifts. That's why the Inquisitor is leading the Inquisition - they are the only one who appears to be capable of managing the Breach. It's true that it's anyone's guess as to what will happen if it's powered up, but the evidence suggests that it has to be the Inquisitor one way or another.

Closing the rift is his task, yes. Powering up his hand or weakening the rift to the extend that he can close it are two different approaches. 

I'll cease now, as basing arguments on the tone of a characters voice leads nowhere. We'll hug after the 21 of November.

[Samahl]

Closing the rift is his task, yes. Powering up his hand or weakening the rift to the extend that he can close it are two different approaches. 

 

Have templars been able to weaken them before, though? What evidence has Cullen offered?

 

I'll cease now, as basing arguments on the tone of a characters voice leads nowhere. We'll hug after the 21 of November.

 

I'm not sure why you think that's what we're arguing about, but okay.

[Muspade]

Have templars been able to weaken them before, though? What evidence has Cullen offered?

Cullen seem's confident that anti-magic is as good as magic to accomplish the task, though I can see why bias might stain his credibility. 

 

I'm not sure why you think that's what we're arguing about, but okay.

I'm not saying that's what we're arguing, I'm saying that's what our arguing would eventually lead to.

[In Exile]

Nope.  His exact line is "Mages cannot be treated like people. They are not like you and me. They are weapons. They have the power to light a city on fire in a fit of pique."  (source)

 

It's a pretty inflammatory line (and not the only one he speaks in DA2).  Still, I'm willing to reserve judgement until I spend some time talking with him in DA:I.  I actually like the idea of Cullen transitioning from an idealist mage sympathizer to an anti-mage zealot to a more mature character who sees the grayness of the mage/templar situation.

 

It's a nutso statement because he's recognizing that mages are people, he's just against treating them humanely. It's a big "Seriously, what the **** Cullen?" moment. Substitute an IRL group for mages and that person is either shaving their head or wrapping up a bedsheet. 

[In Exile]

Warden not tried, warden killed Leliana, you can see cold dead corpses and loot. Leliana is definition of retcon. And because of outcry Bioware promised to "explain" writer are smart they will easy think something , especially in world with magic.

Harrowmont is good how? He is traditionalist all dwarf cast system is horrible, it was so clear Harrowmont will be bad rule. 

 

It's no more of a retcon than how Wynne came back from the dead in DA:O. 

 

And anyway, Leliana got murdered in the room of magical healing ashes. There are two options for why those ashes had healing powers: (1) the mountain is magical and gave them healing powers, in which case it can damn well heal Leliana or (2) the Maker is real, in which case he could heal Leliana. 

 

In either case, there's no clawing back as a retcon. 

 

No, the retcon is Anders always being a GW who fused with Justice. 

[Cerulione]

Actually if it's real life I might do something like this (if we have sufficient ressources):

- send Josie to do negociations

- in the meantime, send Leliana's spies at the same time to ensure that appropriate actions can be done immediately should Josie's negociation fails

- at the same moment Cullen's start preparing the army... just in case you know. But only if it worth it. But I would prefer keeping the army for dire needs later on.

 

If we can achieve the works with less soldiers dead, less resources spent, it'll be great.

[ComedicSociopathy]

It's no more of a retcon than how Wynne came back from the dead in DA:O. 

 

And anyway, Leliana got murdered in the room of magical healing ashes. There are two options for why those ashes had healing powers: (1) the mountain is magical and gave them healing powers, in which case it can damn well heal Leliana or (2) the Maker is real, in which case he could heal Leliana. 

 

In either case, there's no clawing back as a retcon. 

 

No, the retcon is Anders always being a GW who fused with Justice. 

 

Leliana could of also just used the Feign Death ability. No divine intervention required. 

[In Exile]

Leliana could of also just used the Feign Death ability. No divine intervention required. 

 

I think that's too much of an implausible cop-out. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think that's too much of an implausible cop-out. 

Not necessarily. The Warden isn't given an option to check her pulse or run her through just to be sure. (The head-coming-off thing is a bit off-putting but for that to happen in gameplay clearly isn't an incontrovertible sign of plot-death given that Cauthrien can survive it too.)

[Big I]

If you killed her, Leliana perished in a consecrated spot, that's been consecrated for centuries.  Spoiling the ashes isn't going to destroy the amount of True Faith permeating that place.  Several of your companions remark on it (those who aren't completely jaded or insensitive to that kind of thing).

 

It's also, as Oghren mentions, on a mountain so rich in lyrium he can actually feel it while he's standing in the temple. The ashes might not be empowere by the Maker at all; it could just be good old fashioned magic.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I think that's too much of an implausible cop-out. 

 

And the epilogues at Origins just being rumors isn't? Bioware is willing to cop-out if it has to. 

[In Exile]

Not necessarily. The Warden isn't given an option to check her pulse or run her through just to be sure. (The head-coming-off thing is a bit off-putting but for that to happen in gameplay clearly isn't an incontrovertible sign of plot-death given that Cauthrien can survive it too.)

 

That excuse can work for anyone. That's why it's contrived. Arl Howe? Faked his death! Loghain? Spare head! 

 

And the epilogues at Origins just being rumors isn't? Bioware is willing to cop-out if it has to. 

 

I can't blame Bioware for that one because they wanted to give DA:O closure if it was a one-off hit, but then ended up writing themselves into a corner. I prefer it when writers just bit the bullet on that versus just create a tortured plot.