584 réponses à ce sujet

[Gothfather]

Lets face it, poor Josephine needs to really convince me to heed her advice. It's weird, but there's a probable chance i'll choose to follow Lelianna over both my advisers even if it's detrimental to my Inquisition. Bias can really impact one's thought process and i'm overly biased towards Lelianna. She's in love with my warden and in my cooky mind, as a result of that, my Inquisitor is going to be looking out for her best interests. I'm hoping for the prospects of a Quizzy and Warden fist bump moment. Some of us might not even know, but subconsciously favor a more relatable character over logic. 

 

So the question is: How many of you will be neutral going into the game, and will bias towards a certain character impact your overall choices?

I'm more biased towards appraoches than the person. I will likely use military action the least of the three possible choices. The martial stick should be used as a threat more than it should be emplyed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That excuse can work for anyone. That's why it's contrived. Arl Howe? Faked his death! Loghain? Spare head!

I don't think "can work for anyone" is part of the definition for "contrived." The definition of "contrived" is "created or arranged in such a way as to appear artificial or unrealistic." So yes, you could argue that Leiliana faking her death would fit, but not because that excuse could work for anyone. (Especially since it really couldn't; Leiliana really is one of the least contrived places where this excuse could have been used, partially though not entirely because as a rogue she'd have the instinct to try this. Spare heads are hard to pull off convincingly when the guy who's executing you wants very badly for you to actually die. Also for Riordan to use that excuse would require there to be a Slowfall spell in this setting, which I don't believe to be the case. Though maybe we'll see Howe again...)

[Icy Magebane]

I don't think "can work for anyone" is part of the definition for "contrived." The definition of "contrived" is "created or arranged in such a way as to appear artificial or unrealistic." So yes, you could argue that Leiliana faking her death would fit, but not because that excuse could work for anyone. (Especially since it really couldn't; Leiliana really is one of the least contrived places where this excuse could have been used, partially though not entirely because as a rogue she'd have the instinct to try this. Spare heads are hard to pull off convincingly when the guy who's executing you wants very badly for you to actually die. Also for Riordan to use that excuse would require there to be a Slowfall spell in this setting, which I don't believe to be the case. Though maybe we'll see Howe again...)

So the Warden didn't want Leliana dead?  I'm pretty sure mine did...

[In Exile]

I don't think "can work for anyone" is part of the definition for "contrived." The definition of "contrived" is "created or arranged in such a way as to appear artificial or unrealistic." So yes, you could argue that Leiliana faking her death would fit, but not because that excuse could work for anyone. (Especially since it really couldn't; Leiliana really is one of the least contrived places where this excuse could have been used, partially though not entirely because as a rogue she'd have the instinct to try this. Spare heads are hard to pull off convincingly when the guy who's executing you wants very badly for you to actually die. Also for Riordan to use that excuse would require there to be a Slowfall spell in this setting, which I don't believe to be the case. Though maybe we'll see Howe again...)

 

The fact that it can work for anyone is what makes it artificial - because the ones it does work for just happen to be decided at the whim of the author(s). 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So the Warden didn't want Leliana dead?  I'm pretty sure mine did...

Yes, but unless he actually tried to decapitate Leiliana (in the lore, rather than in gameplay, since we know Bioware hasn't always been careful about making sure that can't happen in the gameplay just because a character's not dead in the lore) there's some room for error. If your Warden had had a cutscene where he checked her pulse or made sure to stab her through the heart just to be sure, that'd be a different thing, but it's not that far out there in the context of what these characters survive for being left bleeding on the ground to be survivable.

 

 

The fact that it can work for anyone is what makes it artificial - because the ones it does work for just happen to be decided at the whim of the author(s). 

I really don't see how this answers my point, given that this excuse (which by the way isn't quite what they're using from all I understand) could credibly work for Leiliana and really can't in a number of other cases. (Including one you cited as an example of a character who could be saved by it.) Also I'm not sure what definition of "artificial" you're using here.

[Icy Magebane]

Yes, but unless he actually tried to decapitate Leiliana (in the lore, rather than in gameplay, since we know Bioware hasn't always been careful about making sure that can't happen in the gameplay just because a character's not dead in the lore) there's some room for error. If your Warden had had a cutscene where he checked her pulse or made sure to stab her through the heart just to be sure, that'd be a different thing, but it's not that far out there in the context of what these characters survive for being left bleeding on the ground to be survivable.

Then perhaps one of the several hundred rogues the Warden killed but didn't check is responsible for their disappearance.  Jarvia was a boss-level rogue and she did seem pretty upset that at the Warden, so maybe she used Feign Death and then came back for revenge at a later date... or maybe it was one of those Awakening rogues... they had a lot of talents and were pretty high-level, so maybe a few of them used Feign Death and then got together to kidnap the Warden at some point.  Hm.... guess that's what our hero gets for being sloppy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Then perhaps one of the several hundred rogues the Warden killed but didn't check is responsible for their disappearance.  Jarvia was a boss-level rogue and she did seem pretty upset that at the Warden, so maybe she used Feign Death and then came back for revenge at a later date... or maybe it was one of those Awakening rogues... they had a lot of talents and were pretty high-level, so maybe a few of them used Feign Death and then got together to kidnap the Warden at some point.  Hm.... guess that's what our hero gets for being sloppy.

At least it wouldn't be as contrived as Loghain or Riordan surviving.

[Lady Mutare]

Well I disliked Cullan in DAO and DA2. I don't see me as liking him any better.  So If the rumors in here are true and he is an adviser, then yes, I will have a bias to him. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well I disliked Cullan in DAO and DA2. I don't see me as liking him any better.  So If the rumors in here are true and he is an adviser, then yes, I will have a bias to him. 

What rumors?

[In Exile]

I really don't see how this answers my point, given that this excuse (which by the way isn't quite what they're using from all I understand) could credibly work for Leiliana and really can't in a number of other cases. (Including one you cited as an example of a character who could be saved by it.) Also I'm not sure what definition of "artificial" you're using here.

 

I was being facetious with my Loghain example. 

 

We've killed a great deal of rogues in DA:O-DA2. This includes Zevran and Leliana. Any one of them could come back with a "whoops, feigned my death!" line. That's terrible. 

 

I'm using contrived in the sense of strained and artificial, and I'm using artificial in the sense of insincere. The real reason the character is back is that the writers want them back. There are two options: either just pick a cannon (you must have let Leliana live to pass go) or only revive those characters for whom there is a plausible justification as to their survival. 

[Shapeshifter777]

I'll probably use Cullen the most simply because (and I do not mean to brag) he looks practically like me in real life.  I have abs though and I am not sure if he does.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I was being facetious with my Loghain example. 

 

We've killed a great deal of rogues in DA:O-DA2. This includes Zevran and Leliana. Any one of them could come back with a "whoops, feigned my death!" line. That's terrible. 

 

I'm using contrived in the sense of strained and artificial, and I'm using artificial in the sense of insincere. The real reason the character is back is that the writers want them back. There are two options: either just pick a cannon (you must have let Leliana live to pass go) or only revive those characters for whom there is a plausible justification as to their survival. 

The thing is that while I don't agree that Leiliana surviving her seeming death unaided is that artificial, Gaider has implied (if I understand correctly) that the presence of the Ashes had something to do with it. It's still to some degree contrived, I suppose, but it's really pretty minor at that point. And that also serves your objection that any of them could come back the same way that Leiliana did, since that strikes me as a pretty clear extenuating circumstance that it would be difficult to replicate at all, much less accidentally.

 

 

I'll probably use Cullen the most simply because (and I do not mean to brag) he looks practically like me in real life.  I have abs though and I am not sure if he does.

He's a relatively young and not oversized man who has trained as a knight. So he's probably pretty flabby.

[Icy Magebane]

The thing is that while I don't agree that Leiliana surviving her seeming death unaided is that artificial, Gaider has implied (if I understand correctly) that the presence of the Ashes had something to do with it. It's still to some degree contrived, I suppose, but it's really pretty minor at that point. And that also serves your objection that any of them could come back the same way that Leiliana did, since that strikes me as a pretty clear extenuating circumstance that it would be difficult to replicate at all, much less accidentally.

Either it was Feign Death or it was the Ashes... switching off between the two possibilities doesn't work, especially since the official response to this was basically "we'll bring back who we want, when we want."  Even then, the Ashes were tainted before she died, so they wouldn't have had any magical powers... the most likely conclusion is that the writers wanted to use Leliana in later stories so they ignored her death and stopped short of calling it a rumor like the epilogue slides in DA:O.  They have even gone so far as to marginalize the decision by saying that a very small percentage of players followed this path, so it doesn't matter... while that may have been true, it's no excuse for overwriting our decisions when they could have just created a different character to fill that role in games where Leliana died.  But that would cost money to implement, so it's no surprise they didn't bother...

[DarthLaxian]

@DarthLaxian The way you describe Leliana, I'm reminded of Allison Argent.

 

Who? (don't know that character...where does she originate from (which work of fiction)?)

 

Do you think my characterization is wrong? (Note: I don't actively dislike Leliana as a person - I just dislike what she stands for and think she should see a shrink for her sake (she needs to learn how to be independent and go about living without someone holding your leash...maybe this happens in DAI...would be nice if she showed that she can think for herself (maybe she can, in one of the last gameplays she proposed allying with the mages - which is a little against chantry doctrine and even calls Cullens bluff, that the templars could help just as well (in the game they probably can - otherwise allying yourself with them would be suicide, but Cullen can't know that, less so as what you seem to need is magical power, which the templars don't really have...unless you count lyrium (their anti-magic abilities don't count, do they?) in larger quantities...thing is, isn't a lack of said lyrium what makes the red-templars appear in the first place (meaning they don't have much - if any - reserves left!)...don't know if she will argue with Cassy though (that would be a nice touch, as Cassy is also a chantry zealot IMHO...but maybe both of them learn some independence

 

greetings LAX

[In Exile]

The thing is that while I don't agree that Leiliana surviving her seeming death unaided is that artificial, Gaider has implied (if I understand correctly) that the presence of the Ashes had something to do with it. It's still to some degree contrived, I suppose, but it's really pretty minor at that point. And that also serves your objection that any of them could come back the same way that Leiliana did, since that strikes me as a pretty clear extenuating circumstance that it would be difficult to replicate at all, much less accidentally.

 

Let me clarify - I don't have an issue with Leliana being back from the dead. I think there are lots of plausible reasons for it, having either because the mountain itself is magical, there were enough ashes in the air to bring her back, the guardian was just a spirit/demon and became Leliana's new +1, or the Maker is real and literally brought her back from the dead. 

 

I just don't like the feign death explanation. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Either it was Feign Death or it was the Ashes... switching off between the two possibilities doesn't work, especially since the official response to this was basically "we'll bring back who we want, when we want."  Even then, the Ashes were tainted before she died, so they wouldn't have had any magical powers... the most likely conclusion is that the writers wanted to use Leliana in later stories so they ignored her death and stopped short of calling it a rumor like the epilogue slides in DA:O.  They have even gone so far as to marginalize the decision by saying that a very small percentage of players followed this path, so it doesn't matter... while that may have been true, it's no excuse for overwriting our decisions when they could have just created a different character to fill that role in games where Leliana died.  But that would cost money to implement, so it's no surprise they didn't bother...

I seemed to remember Gaider saying that there was an actual reason, though, that they would get into. It seems to me that that implies that the Ashes were involved. (Hence why I'd pointed out that arguing whether or not it was more contrived without them was belaboring a moot point.) As to the blood taking away the Ashes magic, do we really know how the blood and the Ashes work? If I remember the only person who comes right out and says that putting dragon blood in the Ashes would so much as weaken them is Kolgrim. Even then unless the dragon blood coats every particle it's not that hard to imagine that some bits of Ash will keep their potency.

 

 

Let me clarify - I don't have an issue with Leliana being back from the dead. I think there are lots of plausible reasons for it, having either because the mountain itself is magical, there were enough ashes in the air to bring her back, the guardian was just a spirit/demon and became Leliana's new +1, or the Maker is real and literally brought her back from the dead. 

 

I just don't like the feign death explanation. 

It is the most out-of-left-field one they could go with, and the one that could most easily turn death in Dragon Age really cheap really fast. (Apart from the Maker personally intervening for the first time in probably millenia, which I think is more offensive on both counts.) Point is, I personally don't view it as that far out of left field, even if I completely agree that overusing it would cheapen death rather a lot.

[DarthLaxian]

On my serious/canon play through I'll be taking their advice and choosing whichever happens to be the most suitable for the current situation. They probably know what they're talking about, else why would they be advisers?

 

After that I'll probably have a play through where the Inquisitor is an insufferable so and so, and choose the opposite of what each adviser advises, just to see how things pan out.

 

Well...not necessarily.

 

Take Cullen for example (no, I don't hate him actually - I even understand his anti-mage bias...I just don't have to like it, do I?), he is the MILITARY-ADVISOR...problem is, while he was Knight-Captain for years (thus he has experience leading men into combat), that he is no "real" GENERAL (combat for templars is mostly small unit-tactics (exactly what we do when playing the game - just with groups a little larger), not leading hundreds or even thousands into battle) and thus I don't know if he is qualified for his post (he may be the best character available, but that's no good in the long run IMHO...we should be able to replace him), even more so because at the start the inquisition doesn't have much in the way of an armory etc. (so he needs to be able to handle procurement, too (at least he should...but that's probably something we have to handle...), without having nearly limitless chantry funds available to him...meaning making deals with people (some of them probably quite shady...criminals for example), maybe even stealing supplies or setting up your own industry to provide weapons and armor...don't think that's up his alley

 

Or take Leliana (despite being probably right about this) talking about magic (yes, she has had dealings with mages - in my canon both my Hawke and my Warden are mages for example (as is Sketch from the DLC featuring her) - but a real mage-advisor would have been nice...more so to counterbalance Cullen and Cassy, who are both templars (the seekers are after all just really really good templars - the best of the best, the cream of the crop, selected to be the eyes and ears of the divine and keep order among the ranks, root out corruption etc.)...that way Cullen would be the tempar-advisor/ambassador/spokes-person, the mage would be the same for the mages, we would get a real GENERAL for our army (if we would get a navy, it would be nice to have an extra advisor for that, too - though I don't think we will get one)...though one can argue that some of the companions fit those roles (still, none of them fits what I would call a true military leader, some chevalier might do it or someone like Loghain (not that I like him much...but he has experience leading larger forces and the inquisition should have the best IMHO)

[In Exile]

I seemed to remember Gaider saying that there was an actual reason, though, that they would get into. It seems to me that that implies that the Ashes were involved. (Hence why I'd pointed out that arguing whether or not it was more contrived without them was belaboring a moot point.) As to the blood taking away the Ashes magic, do we really know how the blood and the Ashes work? If I remember the only person who comes right out and says that putting dragon blood in the Ashes would so much as weaken them is Kolgrim. Even then unless the dragon blood coats every particle it's not that hard to imagine that some bits of Ash will keep their potency.

 

Trusting what the deranged cave-dwelling dragon worshiping lunatic says seems to be a bad idea to me, but somehow people decide they want to side with Kolgrim so I guess it's YMMV. Still, there's no reason to think that he's any more right about being able to corrupt the ashes permanently that he is that the dragon he worships is Andraste. I mean, the dude is obviously a nutter. 

[Spectre Impersonator]

I strongly believe Cullen's in there with a significant role for fan service as opposed to his relevance to the story or skills for the job.

[In Exile]

I strongly believe Cullen's in there with a significant role for fan service as opposed to his relevance to the story or skills for the job.

 

So what you're saying is that he moved up based on popularity instead of qualification or competence? Because that's also pretty realistic.  

[Spectre Impersonator]

So what you're saying is that he moved up based on popularity instead of qualification or competence? Because that's also pretty realistic.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to give the fans what they want though. Their decision has made a lot of people very happy. In a fantasy world where pretty much anything can be explained by the writers' creativity, it's a nice gesture to those who loved the dude.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Trusting what the deranged cave-dwelling dragon worshiping lunatic says seems to be a bad idea to me, but somehow people decide they want to side with Kolgrim so I guess it's YMMV.

In my case, it was because it was my second playthrough and I was curious how it went.

[Revan Reborn]

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to give the fans what they want though. Their decision has made a lot of people very happy. In a fantasy world where pretty much anything can be explained by the writers' creativity, it's a nice gesture to those who loved the dude.

People actually like Cullen? I thought he was a wobbling coward in DAO that was more than happy to sacrifice innocents because of a fear they "might" become abominations. He was slightly less-annoying in DA2 as he wasn't as one-dimensional, yet he still continued to follow Knight-Commander Meredith almost until the very end. This was despite her draconian methods and harsh treatment of mages. Perhaps some gamers like him for his looks, but beyond physical appearance, he lacks substance and integrity. He will merely be a tool and nothing more in my Inquisition.

 

Whereas, in contrast, Leliana was actually an extremely likeable character. It was a mistake for BioWare to give the player the option to kill her in DAO. Now the community (five vocal fans who killed her) will never let it down and will continuously complain about how their "choices don't matter." The simple truth is BioWare wanted to further develop her character (should have seen this coming with her appearance in DA2 honestly) and decided a pivotal role in DAI was appropriate. I'm personally glad to see she is back as she was one of the best characters in DAO, and she has changed a lot since we last saw her.

 

If people really despise Leliana's existence that much, just don't acknowledge her or use her talents in your Inquisition. Problem solved.

[Palidane]

I strongly believe Cullen's in there with a significant role for fan service as opposed to his relevance to the story or skills for the job.

Alright, I'm getting sick of reading this. I'm not even a fan of the guy, but the sheer amount of people repeating this demands a counter. I'm going to explain why Cullen was the only logical person to take command of the Inquisitions military forces, point by point.

 

So from the very beginning, the General of the Inquisition basically has to be either from the Grey Wardens or the Chantry. Why you ask? Because the Inquisition is trying to operate in both Ferelden/The Marches and Orlais, countries which have a long and incredibly strong mutual hatred for each other. Sure, Loghain or Gaspard have more than enough experience under their belt, but there's no way in hell they would be able to get near the other country's border with an army. To a lesser extent, the same would be true of a Nevarran general. He has to be from an international organization that is accepted in all of Southern Thedas, and that's a pretty short list: The Grey Wardens, and the Chantry.

 

So of those two, who are some likely candidates? Of the Wardens Loghain is dead in most playthroughs, and even so, Orlais would not accept him. Alistair and all the Awakenings companions are possibly dead, and I think only Nathaniel would really cut it as commander. Who does that leave us with? Stroud? That's not even getting into whether the Grey Wardens are compromised, though signs definitely point to "yes" on that count.

 

What about from the Chantry? Right off the bat, you'll notice the distinct lack of established Templar characters. We've got Greagoir, who is probably fairly experienced, but is getting on in years by now, and has other duties. And then there's...Cullen. A known moderate, with a likable personality, friendly disposition, and extensive combat experience. And when I say extensive, I mean it. Here, let's count:

• Survived Uldred's torture when no one else did, showing extraordinary mental strength and perseverance, even if it took it's toll on him.
• Participated in the Battle of Denerim, fighting with the Templars and/or Mages to fight back the Darkspawn. He survived, and his coalition won the battle.
• Helped command the Kirkwall Templars, a fairly large military order, for 10 years. Especially notable because of the sheer amount of crap happening in and around Kirkwall.
• Helped Command the Templars during the Qunari Invasion of Kirkwall. With Meredith personally busy trying to rescue the Viscount, it's likely Cullen had to lead the rest of the Templar forces in defending the city. He survived this battle, and his side stood victorious at the end.
• In the Kirkwall Rebellion, Cullen and his Templars stood against apostates, maleficars, and demons in claustrophobic urban combat. Even with...whatever the hell happened with Meredith, the Templars were in possession of the field at the end. They indisputably won that battle, even if their casualties were high.

You'll notice that Cullen's record includes basically every major battle that has happened so far in the Dragon Age, and his victory rate is 100%. Coincidentally the same as his survival rate in people's playthroughs. Coupled with his inexplicable but extremely passionate fan base, it would seem Cullen would be the ideal candidate for General of the Inquisition.

 

"Now hold up," you may say "why don't they just create a brand new character to be General, like they did with Josephine?" Well, that idea has a whole host of problems with it. They would still have to be either a Warden or a Templar, due to the above mentioned problems. Most Wardens and Templars don't really have a lot of military experience. That doesn't mean they aren't skilled or dangerous, because they are, but most Wardens and Templars fight in small groups, probably less than a dozen. The only exceptions are the aforementioned battles, at least that I know of. In addition, their motives are likely to be suspect. Why would a Warden, whose supposed to be down below fighting Darkspawn, suddenly volunteer to command the Inquisition's army? And keeping in mind all the weird crap going down with the Wardens, why would anyone give him that army? As for the Templars, enough people on the board's are griping about "being surrounded by the Chantry", even though neither Leliana or Cullen really have a hardline stance. Why would any elf or mage Inquisitor trust a brand new Templar character? 

 

A new character would basically have to be Cullen: a Templar who survived the two battles in Kirkwall with moderate views and a friendly demeanor. And at that point, why wouldn't you just go with Cullen in the first place? What possible reason would you have to use a suspiciously similar substitute over the genuine article? I suspect it mostly boils down too "Because I don't like Cullen!"

 

To which I would ask, do you think you would like the new guy any better?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

• Participated in the Battle of Denerim, fighting with the Templars and/or Mages to fight back the Darkspawn. He survived, and his coalition won the battle.

Beautifully done, but I just have one minor nitpick: if you talk to Cullen after the events of Broken Circle, he says "I should have gone with them to fight." I think that might imply that he's being benched due to Gregoir having concerns about Cullen's mental state after being tortured past a normal man's breaking point. (Your point still stands, and I agree with it.)